My problem with the police

Drowned Out

I guess this could also apply to anyone who can legally take up arms against, or has power over others (ie: soldiers).

After reading Roland's thread about police infiltrating protests at Montebello, and recovering from the anger I felt about what happened there, I got to thinking about the source of my distrust of police...

I have pondered this in the past, after hearing police officers say that they don't support drug laws, while continuing to arrest people under them.

If you join an organization that makes you take an oath to follow orders....but those orders are in direct conflict with your personal morals and beliefs...how can anyone join said organization, or do their job properly without being immoral? How can anyone arrest someone (edit: under a law they don't support), shoot someone, or do something that flies directly in the face of the country/community they serve (Montebello, Iraq), and still be able to look in the mirror? And how are we to feel about people that choose to follow orders over standing up for their own principles?

soulsinging

Drowned Out wrote:

I guess this could also apply to anyone who can legally take up arms against, or has power over others (ie: soldiers).

After reading Roland's thread about police infiltrating protests at Montebello, and recovering from the anger I felt about what happened there, I got to thinking about the source of my distrust of police...

I have pondered this in the past, after hearing police officers say that they don't support drug laws, while continuing to arrest people under them.

If you join an organization that makes you take an oath to follow orders....but those orders are in direct conflict with your personal morals and beliefs...how can anyone join said organization, or do their job properly without being immoral? How can anyone arrest someone, shoot someone, or do something that flies directly in the face of the country/community they serve (Montebello, Iraq), and still be able to look in the mirror? And how are we to feel about people that choose to follow orders over standing up for their own principles?

there is a difference between moral beliefs (i think it's wrong to rape and murder kids) and political ideas (the war on drugs isn't working). i see no problem with a police officer doing his job despite wondering if it's worthwhile. nobody agrees 100% with everything they have to do no the job.

Drowned Out

soulsinging wrote:

there is a difference between moral beliefs (i think it's wrong to rape and murder kids) and political ideas (the war on drugs isn't working). i see no problem with a police officer doing his job despite wondering if it's worthwhile. nobody agrees 100% with everything they have to do no the job.

you don't think morality and political beliefs overlap?
There are many laws based on morality...
there are examples in the war on drugs that are immoral according to the majority....I would think the moral consensus is that it's wrong to arrest a terminally ill person for possession, or for the DEA to raid a compassion club when the state law says it's legal....

soulsinging

Drowned Out wrote:

you don't think morality and political beliefs overlap?
There are many laws based on morality...
there are examples in the war on drugs that are immoral according to the majority....I would think the moral consensus is that it's wrong to arrest a terminally ill person for possession, or for the DEA to raid a compassion club when the state law says it's legal....

but there are degrees of morality. would you turn in your best friend for shoplifting some bread when he was down and out? no, becos that kind of theft is less morally reprehensible to you than, say, what ken lay did. morality is not black ro white. they could disagree with what they do, but not to the point where they feel they should toss their family onto unemployment by refusing to do their job.

Drowned Out

soulsinging wrote:

but there are degrees of morality. would you turn in your best friend for shoplifting some bread when he was down and out? no, becos that kind of theft is less morally reprehensible to you than, say, what ken lay did. morality is not black ro white. they could disagree with what they do, but not to the point where they feel they should toss their family onto unemployment by refusing to do their job.

I agree, but...
I guess what I'm questioning is how anyone could choose that career path knowing that they will have to do things that are against their morals? This is not limited to drugs or theft - what about soldiers killing people while following orders they don't support?
I would guess that a lot of these people don't consider this problem until they are put into this position...

MLC2006

think about this...do you ever get hired and at the beginning, your beliefs are completely in line with the companies mission. but 6-10 years down the road, you become disenchanted and over the years your beliefs begin to separate themselves from the beliefs of the agency. I think that where cops are coming from when they say they don't agree with the drug laws. at first, they're there to fight the good fight, etc but then become completely overwhelmed and crime is like the mail, it never stops coming. so to lax on the drug enforcement would be one big way to slow it down some.

now it sounds like you're against a lot of drug enforcement. and I agree that it's kind of silly to try to arrest everybody with a little bag of pot or cocaine or a little drop of acid, etc. and I think that's where a lot of cops would agree. but if you don't think that drugs (chiefly cocaine, heroin and other opiate and morphine based drugs) absolutely ruin people's lives, then you obviously don't have your eyes open. I have seen many lives ruined from these drugs. and it's not just the users, it's often their whole families. and I don't think any cop who says they're in favor of laxing drug laws a little are referring to this situation.

not to mention that a good many addicts will rob their families blind and then go on to robbing (possibly worse) other people if their drug problem is not brought into check. now unless you know some kind of magical fund that we can fund the needed programs to stop this, law enforcement is the only answer.

Drowned Out

MLC2006 wrote:

think about this...do you ever get hired and at the beginning, your beliefs are completely in line with the companies mission. but 6-10 years down the road, you become disenchanted and over the years your beliefs begin to separate themselves from the beliefs of the agency. I think that where cops are coming from when they say they don't agree with the drug laws. at first, they're there to fight the good fight, etc but then become completely overwhelmed and crime is like the mail, it never stops coming. so to lax on the drug enforcement would be one big way to slow it down some..

That's fair enough...I would like to think that if I found something morally bankrupt about my place of employment, I would look for another job instead of participating.

MLC2006 wrote:

now it sounds like you're against a lot of drug enforcement. and I agree that it's kind of silly to try to arrest everybody with a little bag of pot or cocaine or a little drop of acid, etc. and I think that's where a lot of cops would agree. but if you don't think that drugs (chiefly cocaine, heroin and other opiate and morphine based drugs) absolutely ruin people's lives, then you obviously don't have your eyes open. I have seen many lives ruined from these drugs. and it's not just the users, it's often their whole families. and I don't think any cop who says they're in favor of laxing drug laws a little are referring to this situation...

this is a different debate altogether. I am perfectly aware of the way drugs ruin lives, I've seen it in the past and continue to everyday. My belief is that the money spent on "fighting" drugs should instead be used to treat addiction.

MLC2006 wrote:

not to mention that a good many addicts will rob their families blind and then go on to robbing (possibly worse) other people if their drug problem is not brought into check. now unless you know some kind of magical fund that we can fund the needed programs to stop this, law enforcement is the only answer.

It's not magic...use the drug war money. Or maybe the money the US gives to other countries to fight their drug wars and support US policy.

soulsinging

Drowned Out wrote:

I agree, but...
I guess what I'm questioning is how anyone could choose that career path knowing that they will have to do things that are against their morals? This is not limited to drugs or theft - what about soldiers killing people while following orders they don't support?
I would guess that a lot of these people don't consider this problem until they are put into this position...

maybe they feel they are doing more good than bad? that for every drug bust they aren't comfortable making, they save a half dozen lives from murderers or something.

Drowned Out

soulsinging wrote:

maybe they feel they are doing more good than bad? that for every drug bust they aren't comfortable making, they save a half dozen lives from murderers or something.

...and I wouldn't be surprised if they do.
For the record, I know a couple cops on a personal level, they are good people, and I wouldn't call them immoral over this stuff....but I have never felt comfortable having this discussion with them. I also know that if I was in trouble, these cops would be my best friends....I think most officers, when confronted about it would give the reason you gave above (commendable).


My problem is that there seems to be so many cops that are on the force just to still be able to "bust some skulls" like they did when they played football, or whatever...combine that with the fact that they can dismiss their morals to follow orders, and the attitude towards whistleblowing....it's pretty easy to find a dirtbag cop. I wish I felt there were more cops that joined to help people. Probably the majority are in it for a combination of helping and excitement...the excitement aspect can attract a lot of cowboys tho too...:D
maybe a silly debate....

Not touching the soldier angle to this?

MLC2006

Drowned Out wrote:

My problem is that there seems to be so many cops that are on the force just to still be able to "bust some skulls" like they did when they played football, or whatever...combine that with the fact that they can dismiss their morals to follow orders, and the attitude towards whistleblowing....it's pretty easy to find a dirtbag cop. I wish I felt there were more cops that joined to help people. Probably the majority are in it for a combination of helping and excitement...the excitement aspect can attract a lot of cowboys tho too...:D
maybe a silly debate....

Not touching the soldier angle to this?

in my experience, there are 3 types of cops, and 1 type is no more usual than the other 2.....

1. the gungho cowboy type that you referred to with "bust some skulls"
2. the cop who is there genuinely to do good for the world.
3. the cop who has been at it so long that they no longer know why the fuck they are there and are generally burned out. what you get out of them depends on what day you happen to catch them on. these usually started out as type #2.

if you think type #1 is the prevalent type, I think you've not met enough cops. yeah, these are the ones that make the news most often for being fucking idiots, but I think there are generally more of #2 and #3.

as for why don't they go into something else. it's like the other person said, I think they see they're doing more good than bad and their whole outlook on their job doesn't hinge on the drug aspect alone.

as for why don't we spend the money on drug abuse prevention and rehab rather than law enforcement...well, we're going to have law enforcement regardless. there are law enforcement problems other than drugs and you need X number of cops for X number of population to handle these problems. Law enforcement is already understaffed and under funded, so it's not like there's this mountain of funds that can be taken away from law enforcement and put towards other uses. so they take this whole drug problem and heap it on the already overloaded criminal justice system.

but this problem does not start or end with cops, so if that's where you think the problem lies, you're wrong. it starts with society, the government...at the federal, state, and local levels. cops don't make up the rules and what will and won't be enforced. the street cop you see answers to a Sgt who answers to a Lieutinent who answers to a captain to answers to a Major who answers to a Chief who answers to the county council who answers to the governor etc etc etc.

decides2dream

MLC2006 wrote:

in my experience, there are 3 types of cops, and 1 type is no more usual than the other 2.....

1. the gungho cowboy type that you referred to with "bust some skulls"
2. the cop who is there genuinely to do good for the world.
3. the cop who has been at it so long that they no longer know why the fuck they are there and are generally burned out. what you get out of them depends on what day you happen to catch them on. these usually started out as type #2.

if you think type #1 is the prevalent type, I think you've not met enough cops. yeah, these are the ones that make the news most often for being fucking idiots, but I think there are generally more of #2 and #3.

as for why don't they go into something else. it's like the other person said, I think they see they're doing more good than bad and their whole outlook on their job doesn't hinge on the drug aspect alone.

as for why don't we spend the money on drug abuse prevention and rehab rather than law enforcement...well, we're going to have law enforcement regardless. there are law enforcement problems other than drugs and you need X number of cops for X number of population to handle these problems. Law enforcement is already understaffed and under funded, so it's not like there's this mountain of funds that can be taken away from law enforcement and put towards other uses. so they take this whole drug problem and heap it on the already overloaded criminal justice system.

but this problem does not start or end with cops, so if that's where you think the problem lies, you're wrong. it starts with society, the government...at the federal, state, and local levels. cops don't make up the rules and what will and won't be enforced. the street cop you see answers to a Sgt who answers to a Lieutinent who answers to a captain to answers to a Major who answers to a Chief who answers to the county council who answers to the governor etc etc etc.

well stated. thank you, complete agreement. i think i've discussed my views on cops enough on the AET recently .....so i'll just offer my complete agreement with this and leave it at that.

Drowned Out

MLC2006 wrote:

in my experience, there are 3 types of cops, and 1 type is no more usual than the other 2.....

1. the gungho cowboy type that you referred to with "bust some skulls"
2. the cop who is there genuinely to do good for the world.
3. the cop who has been at it so long that they no longer know why the fuck they are there and are generally burned out. what you get out of them depends on what day you happen to catch them on. these usually started out as type #2.

if you think type #1 is the prevalent type, I think you've not met enough cops. yeah, these are the ones that make the news most often for being fucking idiots, but I think there are generally more of #2 and #3.

as for why don't they go into something else. it's like the other person said, I think they see they're doing more good than bad and their whole outlook on their job doesn't hinge on the drug aspect alone.

as for why don't we spend the money on drug abuse prevention and rehab rather than law enforcement...well, we're going to have law enforcement regardless. there are law enforcement problems other than drugs and you need X number of cops for X number of population to handle these problems. Law enforcement is already understaffed and under funded, so it's not like there's this mountain of funds that can be taken away from law enforcement and put towards other uses. so they take this whole drug problem and heap it on the already overloaded criminal justice system.

but this problem does not start or end with cops, so if that's where you think the problem lies, you're wrong. it starts with society, the government...at the federal, state, and local levels. cops don't make up the rules and what will and won't be enforced. the street cop you see answers to a Sgt who answers to a Lieutinent who answers to a captain to answers to a Major who answers to a Chief who answers to the county council who answers to the governor etc etc etc.

I agree with everything you've said (except one point noted below)...this thread was created out of frustration over the three police officers "outed" at the montebello protests....probably a bit hasty. I called those cops pigs, and was considering editing a disclaimer....but to me, if those cops followed orders to covertly disrupt an already oppressed protest, which projects a media image of the protesters that would not have been countered unless they were caught, then they are true manson-esque marching piggies. If they uphold their oaths, they should be turning their commanders in for ordering it. I guess I have a frustration that people, including military officers, do not do more to stand up against their organizations when they feel they are overstepping their bounds. You're right in that this is a society-wide problem.

it probably appears that I'm being judgemental of cops in general...I know there are good and bad everywhere.

MLC2006/ wrote:

as for why don't we spend the money on drug abuse prevention and rehab rather than law enforcement...well, we're going to have law enforcement regardless. there are law enforcement problems other than drugs and you need X number of cops for X number of population to handle these problems. Law enforcement is already understaffed and under funded, so it's not like there's this mountain of funds that can be taken away from law enforcement and put towards other uses. so they take this whole drug problem and heap it on the already overloaded criminal justice system..

I wish there was an easy way to compare numbers...but I would bet that the money used directly and indirectly to FIGHT drugs would easily be enough to TREAT most addicts - read: the group of drug users that break the law -, and still be enough left over to put into other police programs, including education...which would improve issues like the gung-ho cowboy effect.

Drowned Out

Also, as I said...I HAVE met a lot of cops, and am actually friends with a few....the cops that I know are good people. But I had personal experience with police harassment when I was younger...I had a couple minor incidents (house party complaints) that familiarized me with a number of officers...this led to being pulled over a million times for BS reasons....I have been roughed up, cuffed and thrown in jail for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (trying to BREAK UP a disturbance ((edit - I won't go into detail about the violence that occured in the drunk tank that night, or the police's roll in it...my life could have easily been changed forever, and I was in a LOT of danger))....the majority of my personal experience with ON DUTY cops has been very negative.

macgyver06

police are slaves now also

Rushlimbo

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/sporedust/no_justice_no_peace_fuck_the_police.jpg

Juberoo

Drowned Out wrote:

I guess this could also apply to anyone who can legally take up arms against, or has power over others (ie: soldiers).

After reading Roland's thread about police infiltrating protests at Montebello, and recovering from the anger I felt about what happened there, I got to thinking about the source of my distrust of police...

I have pondered this in the past, after hearing police officers say that they don't support drug laws, while continuing to arrest people under them.

If you join an organization that makes you take an oath to follow orders....but those orders are in direct conflict with your personal morals and beliefs...how can anyone join said organization, or do their job properly without being immoral? How can anyone arrest someone (edit: under a law they don't support), shoot someone, or do something that flies directly in the face of the country/community they serve (Montebello, Iraq), and still be able to look in the mirror? And how are we to feel about people that choose to follow orders over standing up for their own principles?

Do you support the government and its choice regarding the war in Iraq? If not, when you say the pledge or have your children say it every day in school, you are saying you do.

Juberoo

Drowned Out wrote:

I agree, but...
I guess what I'm questioning is how anyone could choose that career path knowing that they will have to do things that are against their morals? This is not limited to drugs or theft - what about soldiers killing people while following orders they don't support?
I would guess that a lot of these people don't consider this problem until they are put into this position...

That is a very good question.....why is it that when the term "war" or "soldier" is used, it is suddenly ok to kill other human beings. But in normal every day life, that is illegal and immoral.

Juberoo

macgyver06 wrote:

police are slaves now also

They are not slaves, they are the few things you have left to protect your sorry ass from the miscreants of the world.

Drowned Out

Juberoo wrote:

That is a very good question.....why is it that when the term "war" or "soldier" is used, it is suddenly ok to kill other human beings. But in normal every day life, that is illegal and immoral.

I'm sure the rationale is that they committed to following orders when they signed up. I just wonder why, when the morale of the US military is so low, and almost every soldier I have seen interviewed complains about the merits of the mission, the length of their tour, etc., that there is not more rebellion within the ranks. I saw a series on CBC recently that had interviews mixed with on-duty footage of a US platoon in Iraq...the soldier that was interviewed did nothing but criticize the US govt for their policies, and the military for extending his duty....but the very next day, him and his men killed a cabby that wouldn't stop for them...they just continue doing their thing even if they don't agree with it. their is no justice for innocent victims in war...

I've always had trouble saying "I support the troops"...because....well, I don't. (I'm talking about the Canadians in Afghanistan as well)....I want every single one of them home safe and sound, but I don't support their mission, nor their daily activities, no matter how noble.

oh, and I don't pledge, b/c I'm Canadian.

Juberoo

Drowned Out wrote:

I'm sure the rationale is that they committed to following orders when they signed up. I just wonder why, when the morale of the US military is so low, and almost every soldier I have seen interviewed complains about the merits of the mission, the length of their tour, etc., that there is not more rebellion within the ranks. I saw a series on CBC recently that had interviews mixed with on-duty footage of a US platoon in Iraq...the soldier that was interviewed did nothing but criticize the US govt for their policies, and the military for extending his duty....but the very next day, him and his men killed a cabby that wouldn't stop for them...they just continue doing their thing even if they don't agree with it. their is no justice for innocent victims in war...

I've always had trouble saying "I support the troops"...because....well, I don't. (I'm talking about the Canadians in Afghanistan as well)....I want every single one of them home safe and sound, but I don't support their mission, nor their daily activities, no matter how noble.

oh, and I don't pledge, b/c I'm Canadian.

I think on a large scale, they are brainwashed. Boot camp prepares them and strips them of their identities, then reprograms them with the "soldier" mentality. You don't question...you just do.

I remember recently there being some talk of conspiracy as regards to altering the military personnel mental facilities via biological means. That to me is very frightening. Because eventually, these men and women return home. Reprogramed and dangerous!