Norman Finkelstein - Hezbollah, the Honor of Lebanon

fuck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ&feature=related

very well put.

fuck

bump

JOEJOEJOE

_outlaw wrote:

bump

Whats wrong, no one wants to join you for your anti-Israel circle jerk?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

_outlaw wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ&feature=related

very well put.

I've seen this. You really can't argue around it without being a flat out hypocrite.

Mostly why he was arrested upon entering Israel just months ago.

Sssshhh!!! it's supposed to be a secret Norman....you're not allowed to spread common sense like that...now you must be silenced.

and yes....very well put.

fuck

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Whats wrong, no one wants to join you for your anti-Israel circle jerk?

nah, ignorant people would rather not hear the truth.

hailhailkc

It really worries me how the anti-semitism is growing on this board. (And no, I don't differentiate between anti-semitism and anti-zionism)

Nevermind

hailhailkc wrote:

It really worries me how the anti-semitism is growing on this board. (And no, I don't differentiate between anti-semitism and anti-zionism)

You expect ethnic cleansing to be popular?

fuck

hailhailkc wrote:

It really worries me how the anti-semitism is growing on this board. (And no, I don't differentiate between anti-semitism and anti-zionism)

who here is anti-semitic? who here has said anything against Jews or Jewish people as a whole? who here is condemning a people rather than a system of oppression?

honestly, I don't expect you to answer any of these questions. most people here have no problem making wild accusations without backing anything up.

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

nah, ignorant people would rather not hear the truth.

Are you ready to hear the truth that Hezbollah (thanks to foreign funding) is co-responsible for the political destabilization of the country and one of the main reasons why Lebanon doesn't have a government that really represents the lebanese people interests rather than those of its neighbours? Serious shit went down in Lebanon a few months ago, and (for once, I agree) it wasn't Israel's fault.
So let's not get blinded by only one problem as other people are also suffering.

fuck

Kann wrote:

Are you ready to hear the truth that Hezbollah (thanks to foreign funding) is co-responsible for the political destabilization of the country and one of the main reasons why Lebanon doesn't have a government that really represents the lebanese people interests rather than those of its neighbours? Serious shit went down in Lebanon a few months ago, and (for once, I agree) it wasn't Israel's fault.
So let's not get blinded by only one problem as other people are also suffering.

the 'political destabilization'? Hezbollah represents a large amount of the Lebanese people. they have many, many supporters. Just because the Western-backed government in Lebanon isn't willing to accept the legitimacy of the group does not mean that it is Hezbollah's fault for what has occured in Lebanon. Keep in mind, also, that while it's not ISRAEL'S personal fault, the other government in Lebanon was backed by the West, including the U.S. and France.

Also, keep in mind that the only reason Hezbollah came to power was Israel's 18-year occupation of Lebanon.

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

the 'political destabilization'? Hezbollah represents a large amount of the Lebanese people. they have many, many supporters. Just because the Western-backed government in Lebanon isn't willing to accept the legitimacy of the group does not mean that it is Hezbollah's fault for what has occured in Lebanon.

I actually used "political destabilization" because the Shia is the largest community in Lebanon. But when you have political party who shakes the power by armed assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Lebanon#Armed_clashes) while being under a UN resolution (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8181.doc.htm), "political destabilization" is more of a euphemism.

Keep in mind, also, that while it's not ISRAEL'S personal fault, the other government in Lebanon was backed by the West, including the U.S. and France.

What's the difference between a government backed by the US and France and one backed by Syria and Iran? It still isn't the people's voice.

Also, keep in mind that the only reason Hezbollah came to power was Israel's 18-year occupation of Lebanon.

I know, and I find it legitimate for a resistance movement to grow under occupation. However Hezbollah is not a resistance movement anymore, it's an armed political party which defends Lebanon in case of aggression by Israel and also kills fellow Lebanese if they disagree politically and/or confessionaly.

El_Kabong

Nevermind wrote:

You expect ethnic cleansing to be popular?

you mean what the israeli's are doing to the palestinians? it seems pretty popular to some around here...

fuck

Kann wrote:

I actually used "political destabilization" because the Shia is the largest community in Lebanon. But when you have political party who shakes the power by armed assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Lebanon#Armed_clashes) while being under a UN resolution (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8181.doc.htm), "political destabilization" is more of a euphemism.

what does the shia sect being a large community have to do with political destabilization? and why do you only say Hezbollah led to "destabilization" but the pro-western govt didn't?

What's the difference between a government backed by the US and France and one backed by Syria and Iran? It still isn't the people's voice.

you seem to ignore the fact that Hezbollah has the support of many people in Lebanon...

I know, and I find it legitimate for a resistance movement to grow under occupation. However Hezbollah is not a resistance movement anymore, it's an armed political party which defends Lebanon in case of aggression by Israel and also kills fellow Lebanese if they disagree politically and/or confessionaly.

that's a lie. they don't kill people if they disagree politically, and confessionaly is not even a word.

rebornFixer

hailhailkc wrote:

It really worries me how the anti-semitism is growing on this board. (And no, I don't differentiate between anti-semitism and anti-zionism)

Not to mention of glorification of Islamic fundamentalism.

rebornFixer

Kann wrote:

I know, and I find it legitimate for a resistance movement to grow under occupation. However Hezbollah is not a resistance movement anymore, it's an armed political party which defends Lebanon in case of aggression by Israel and also kills fellow Lebanese if they disagree politically and/or confessionaly.

Agreed. And I'd add that Hezbollah fits standard definitions of a terrorist group, even if the word "terrorist" is an overused buzzword.

rebornFixer

El_Kabong wrote:

you mean what the israeli's are doing to the palestinians? it seems pretty popular to some around here...

Bullshit. I have never seen someone on here seriously claim that Israel has the right to kill innocent Palestinians.

fuck

reborncareerist wrote:

Bullshit. I have never seen someone on here seriously claim that Israel has the right to kill innocent Palestinians.

people have justified it, and you seem to not even know what 'ethnic cleansing' means, seeing as how it doesn't necessarily mean to kill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

fuck

reborncareerist wrote:

Not to mention of glorification of Islamic fundamentalism.

not one person here has shown any anti-semitism or any of these baseless lies.

fuck

reborncareerist wrote:

Agreed. And I'd add that Hezbollah fits standard definitions of a terrorist group, even if the word "terrorist" is an overused buzzword.

oh? how are they terrorists?

apparently fighting against an occupation means you're a terrorist? a legitimate resistance group can also become a political group, but it does not make it a 'terrorist group'.

rebornFixer

_outlaw wrote:

not one person here has shown any anti-semitism or any of these baseless lies.

People are too smart to be overt about it, this place is all about subtlety. The audience around here is also smart enough to notice, though. Sure, there's no overt kudos to the fundamentalists on here. The thing is, its hard not to fill in the blanks with some of these posts. Quite frankly, no one wants to read some extremist opinion piece cheerleading Hezbollah. Maybe I am overgeneralizing. I don't want to read it. The reality of these situations is so much more complex than anything these propagandists can write, but certain posters on here revel in this shite.
Why don't you just write a balanced piece on the situation in Lebanon, if your view truly is balanced? If you're view is not balanced, then stop trying to pretend it is.

rebornFixer

By the way, "-isms" are grounded to a large extent in individual perception. In this day and age, some people seem "-isms" everywhere, and some people selectively apply the concept ... At the end of the day, though, everyone's threshold for getting offended differs. Honestly, my view is that the constant barrage of anti-Israel pieces on here treads an extremely fine line. There is just enough room left for plausible denial, but enough of a pattern to cause some to at least wonder about anti-Semitism. That's all. Take it or leave it. It needed to be said, though.

fuck

reborncareerist wrote:

People are too smart to be overt about it, this place is all about subtlety. The audience around here is also smart enough to notice, though. Sure, there's no overt kudos to the fundamentalists on here. The thing is, its hard not to fill in the blanks with some of these posts. Quite frankly, no one wants to read some extremist opinion piece cheerleading Hezbollah. Maybe I am overgeneralizing. I don't want to read it. The reality of these situations is so much more complex than anything these propagandists can write, but certain posters on here revel in this shite.
Why don't you just write a balanced piece on the situation in Lebanon, if your view truly is balanced? If you're view is not balanced, then stop trying to pretend it is.

this only shows how much full of shit you really are. 'there is subtlety in your anti-semitism'. just because you guys are in a state of shock when you see people ACTUALLY saying that Israel is wrong in its actions does not make them anti-semitic. No one ever even mentions Jews as a people, we only strictly speak about the Israeli government and the illegal settlers. To think otherwise is not only a complete mistake, but you'd have to be utterly delusional.

Next, to even mention 'Islamic fundamentalism' is completely irrelevant. No one here is even mentioning religion. What Hezbollah's religion is is irrelevant. At the end of the day, they aren't fighting to spread Islam, though you may think that, they formed to fight the illegal Israeli occupation, and to help defend Palestine (in some sorts). Though western media will try to show you otherwise, it simply isn't true.

The VIDEO I posted (you didn't have to read) was actually a view on Hezbollah given from a JEWISH person. The idea of a 'balanced' view is just so pathetic. There is no such thing as a 'balanced' view. There's a view of what you see as RIGHT, and a view of what you think is WRONG. I don't support every little thing that Hezbollah or the Palestinians do, but to say I don't have a 'balanced' view and should be disregarded (as you disregarded this video) is pure nonsense.

Just because people can say "until the Palestinians give up violence, and the Israelis give up violence, I won't do anything and no peace will happen" does not make them 'balanced' or legitimize their views any more than mine, and especially not more than people like Norman Finkelstein.

Keep living in your little bubble. To say I'm not open to views from the 'other side' or 'balanced' views is just bullshit. I've heard all sides, and I chose what's right. In my opinion, the occupation and oppression of a people is wrong. Maybe you'd disagree.

rebornFixer

_outlaw wrote:

this only shows how much full of shit you really are. 'there is subtlety in your anti-semitism'. just because you guys are in a state of shock when you see people ACTUALLY saying that Israel is wrong in its actions does not make them anti-semitic. No one ever even mentions Jews as a people, we only strictly speak about the Israeli government and the illegal settlers. To think otherwise is not only a complete mistake, but you'd have to be utterly delusional.

Next, to even mention 'Islamic fundamentalism' is completely irrelevant. No one here is even mentioning religion. What Hezbollah's religion is is irrelevant. At the end of the day, they aren't fighting to spread Islam, though you may think that, they formed to fight the illegal Israeli occupation, and to help defend Palestine (in some sorts). Though western media will try to show you otherwise, it simply isn't true.

The VIDEO I posted (you didn't have to read) was actually a view on Hezbollah given from a JEWISH person. The idea of a 'balanced' view is just so pathetic. There is no such thing as a 'balanced' view. There's a view of what you see as RIGHT, and a view of what you think is WRONG. I don't support every little thing that Hezbollah or the Palestinians do, but to say I don't have a 'balanced' view and should be disregarded (as you disregarded this video) is pure nonsense.

Just because people can say "until the Palestinians give up violence, and the Israelis give up violence, I won't do anything and no peace will happen" does not make them 'balanced' or legitimize their views any more than mine, and especially not more than people like Norman Finkelstein.

Keep living in your little bubble. To say I'm not open to views from the 'other side' or 'balanced' views is just bullshit. I've heard all sides, and I chose what's right. In my opinion, the occupation and oppression of a people is wrong. Maybe you'd disagree.

No, I agree that the occupation and oppression of a people is wrong, and anyone with the inclination can go back and read my posts about Israel/Palestine to confirm. I am pro-Palestinian statehood, pro-withdrawal to pre-1967 borders, and anti-violence as a general rule, which goes for both sides.
I also believe that terrorism is an ineffectual and amoral response to oppression, just as terrorism is an ineffectual and amoral approach to creating oppression itself. Perhaps that's where you and I disagree. Hezbollah and Hamas do not exist solely as a legitimate response to oppression, and anyone educated with regards to Middle Eastern affairs can recognize this fact. Yes, its a fact. These groups are ideologicaly-driven, they exist for reasons other than oppression, even if said oppression is real.

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

what does the shia sect being a large community have to do with political destabilization? and why do you only say Hezbollah led to "destabilization" but the pro-western govt didn't?

Did you read the source? I know it's only wikipedia but still. Hezbollah has a large support in Lebanon because it's a Shia organization, but it still doesn't give them the right to go in the capital, kill political opponents and grab the power by arms. That's not democratic. Especially considering them having weapons violate international laws, or are these laws designed for western countries only?

you seem to ignore the fact that Hezbollah has the support of many people in Lebanon...

You seem to ignore there are 18 different communities in Lebanon and that the government should represent each one.

that's a lie. they don't kill people if they disagree politically, and confessionaly is not even a word.

Great argument. The matter of fact is politics and religion are tied in Lebanon and politics from religious minorities were killed and/or removed by the party of god. Now you could try to understand neologisms, or that a large group like Hezbollah can do some good but also did some bad things. And honoring is a strong word for a such an entity. That's all I'm saying, great job on the schools, hospitals etc. but Lebanon could do without more civil wars.

apparently fighting against an occupation means you're a terrorist? a legitimate resistance group can also become a political group, but it does not make it a 'terrorist group'.

Where is the occupation in Lebanon today? Since apparently we're comparing Hezbollah to the french resistance (hence comparing Israel to Nazi germany - but whatever), may I remind you the resistance was dissolved once germany stopped occupying france?

Next, to even mention 'Islamic fundamentalism' is completely irrelevant. No one here is even mentioning religion. What Hezbollah's religion is is irrelevant. At the end of the day, they aren't fighting to spread Islam, though you may think that, they formed to fight the illegal Israeli occupation, and to help defend Palestine (in some sorts). Though western media will try to show you otherwise, it simply isn't true.

First of all, Hezbollah means the party of God. In lebanon neighbourhoods are divided according to religious communities. A christian would have a hard time living in a hezbollah controlled neighbourhood and inversely, it's the way things are. This party is completely tainted with religion, so tainted in fact that you will find no Sunni in Hezbollah's ranks. It's just the way things are, and considering Hezbollah is the main force in the country now saying : "Fight against the power" is fun, but don't forget oppression is not just on one side.

NoK

Kann wrote:

Did you read the source? I know it's only wikipedia but still. Hezbollah has a large support in Lebanon because it's a Shia organization, but it still doesn't give them the right to go in the capital, kill political opponents and grab the power by arms. That's not democratic. Especially considering them having weapons violate international laws, or are these laws designed for western countries only?
You seem to ignore there are 18 different communities in Lebanon and that the government should represent each one.

Great argument. The matter of fact is politics and religion are tied in Lebanon and politics from religious minorities were killed and/or removed by the party of god. Now you could try to understand neologisms, or that a large group like Hezbollah can do some good but also did some bad things. And honoring is a strong word for a such an entity. That's all I'm saying, great job on the schools, hospitals etc. but Lebanon could do without more civil wars.


Where is the occupation in Lebanon today? Since apparently we're comparing Hezbollah to the french resistance (hence comparing Israel to Nazi germany - but whatever), may I remind you the resistance was dissolved once germany stopped occupying france?


First of all, Hezbollah means the party of God. In lebanon neighbourhoods are divided according to religious communities. A christian would have a hard time living in a hezbollah controlled neighbourhood and inversely, it's the way things are. This party is completely tainted with religion, so tainted in fact that you will find no Sunni in Hezbollah's ranks. It's just the way things are, and considering Hezbollah is the main force in the country now saying : "Fight against the power" is fun, but don't forget oppression is not just on one side.

Hizballah did make a big mistake during their run down of neighbourhoods and I believe they acknowledged they made some mistakes during that time (although not directly as that would affect their pride). Their popularity took a big hit among Lebanese of all sects and now they are trying to build it back for the 2009 Lebanese elections.

Although Hizballah did control the attack on the neighbourhoods, other groups were involved including AMAL who are known for their dirty tactics. It was believed widely that Hizballah fighters secured the streets first and then withdrew and placed AMAL fighters to control the positions (and that is where things got dirty). For example, the overtaking of Mustaqbal offices and so on. In addition to Hizballah and AMAL, there were opposition groups in Tripoli (sunni dominated) and in the mountains (druze dominated; Talal Arslan's Lebanese Democratic Party) that were involved. Not to mention Aoun's FMP movement (Christian Maronite) which was also involved in the "uprising".

fuck

Kann wrote:

Did you read the source? I know it's only wikipedia but still. Hezbollah has a large support in Lebanon because it's a Shia organization

Wrong. they have a large support in Lebanon because they defended the country against an 18-year occupation.

but it still doesn't give them the right to go in the capital, kill political opponents and grab the power by arms.

which didn't happen.

You seem to ignore there are 18 different communities in Lebanon and that the government should represent each one.

relevance? since when did Hezbollah want to control the entire government?

Great argument. The matter of fact is politics and religion are tied in Lebanon and politics from religious minorities were killed and/or removed by the party of god.

politics and religious affiliation aren't necessarily tied in the sense that it is in Saudi Arabia. It's just that there's a strong sense of identity among the different sects and religions in the country which aren't fully represented well. AGAIN, how is Hezbollah going against this? Hezbollah has not killed people simply because they disagree with them, that's nonsense.

Now you could try to understand neologisms,

I knew what you meant, but it's not an actual word. The argument that Hezbollah kills people who don't agree with them on politics or faith is simply a lie.

or that a large group like Hezbollah can do some good but also did some bad things.

EVERYONE has done "some bad things"... what's your point?

And honoring is a strong word for a such an entity. That's all I'm saying, great job on the schools, hospitals etc. but Lebanon could do without more civil wars.

You seem content with placing the blame solely on Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance group who deserves to be honored. After becoming very active both socially and politically in Lebanon, they became even more legitimate. They simply wanted recognition and better representation in the government, which they were not granted due to the pro-Western heads in Lebanon. How can you ignore all of this?

Where is the occupation in Lebanon today? Since apparently we're comparing Hezbollah to the french resistance (hence comparing Israel to Nazi germany - but whatever), may I remind you the resistance was dissolved once germany stopped occupying france?

uh, do you know how to read? In that same exact quote I wrote:

"a legitimate resistance group can also become a political group"

Israel is similar to Nazi Germany on many cases, good job on not arguing there. Also, keep in mind Nazi Germany fell after only a few years of resistance- Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. Had Israel left after 5 years, I do not think Hezbollah would have had such a big impact like they did later on.

First of all, Hezbollah means the party of God.

and that = Islamic fundamentalism?

In lebanon neighbourhoods are divided according to religious communities.

Not completely.

A christian would have a hard time living in a hezbollah controlled neighbourhood and inversely, it's the way things are.

not really. Yes, the communities there fight a lot and all, but I know many people in Lebanon- Sunnis who live in Southern Beirut, Christians, etc... they seem to have no problem. In fact, they praise Hezbollah for doing great social work.

This party is completely tainted with religion, so tainted in fact that you will find no Sunni in Hezbollah's ranks.

again, relevance? just because shiites happened to be the ones to form hezbollah doesn't mean much. hezbollah actually praises and supports the Palestinian people, who happen to be sunni.

It's just the way things are, and considering Hezbollah is the main force in the country now saying : "Fight against the power" is fun, but don't forget oppression is not just on one side.

ok...
let's say Hezbollah DID start the civil war
let's say they DID kill many people
are you seriously comparing their oppression to that of the Israeli oppression on Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, etc??

what a joke.

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

let's say Hezbollah DID start the civil war
let's say they DID kill many people
are you seriously comparing their oppression to that of the Israeli oppression on Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, etc??

what a joke.

In my view it's the same, an oppressive movement is wrong whatever the reasons behind it, or its age.
edit : won't comment the rest of your post

El_Kabong

reborncareerist wrote:

People are too smart to be overt about it, this place is all about subtlety. The audience around here is also smart enough to notice, though. Sure, there's no overt kudos to the fundamentalists on here. The thing is, its hard not to fill in the blanks with some of these posts. Quite frankly, no one wants to read some extremist opinion piece cheerleading Hezbollah. Maybe I am overgeneralizing. I don't want to read it. The reality of these situations is so much more complex than anything these propagandists can write, but certain posters on here revel in this shite.
Why don't you just write a balanced piece on the situation in Lebanon, if your view truly is balanced? If you're view is not balanced, then stop trying to pretend it is.

hezbollah is obviously biased, but they are there and having to deal w/ decades of this, i'm sure you read articles and watch news stories from ppl as equally biased in the mainstream media constantly

RolandTD20Kdrummer

_outlaw wrote:

oh? how are they terrorists?

apparently fighting against an occupation means you're a terrorist? a legitimate resistance group can also become a political group, but it does not make it a 'terrorist group'.

You just have to be white and have a massive military then it's ok...

some people just want to be on the winning team...and as long as it's winning it's ok.

fuck principles