And in this imaginary scenario... I would be going around blowing up shit and killing them and treasonous Americans that supported this foriegn power in my country because no matter how fucked up we may be, this is still my country. All the while, you would be sitting around, calling me
moronic for doing so. Who is the Patriot in this picture?
You are the true patriot. Congrats.
The stupidity on this board never ceases to amaze me.
Of course they worked, in terms of crippling the Iraqi army. But they also led directly to the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians. In fact, they did a better job of killing civilians that the current war has done.
Oh, and the Iraqi army actually took on the M1s with T-72s back in 1990 ... The Republican Guard divisions. They got their asses handed to them because the American divisions used better tactics and had better equipment. It wasn't just T-34s, and it wasn't just the sanctions. The best Iraqi units got destroyed in the first Gulf War, in combat.
...
I know... my point is that Iraq was not able to re-arm their conventional forces, let alone, any nuclear capabilities, because of the sanctions.
An un-related point... but, do you remember how the Republican Guard deployed their T-72s? They dug them in up to their turrets to set up a defensive line, pretty much eliminating their mobility. They were sitting ducks for swarms of coalition (U.S., British, French, German and Austrailian) fighter/bombers. The Iraqis had no air defense systems along this line and they paid dearly for this mistake.
...
Back to the sanctions... personally... about the Iraqis... fuck 'em. If they weren't doing anything to rebel against Hussein ripping them off, it must not have been so bad... otherwise, they'd started this Civil War on their own. We have our own fucking problems in this country to solve, why should i care about them over there? Yeah, it's a bummer... but, there are other countries (in Africa) that were much worse off then they were... who put them at the top of our "We Have To Save Them" list?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I know... my point is that Iraq was not able to re-arm their conventional forces, let alone, any nuclear capabilities, because of the sanctions.
An un-related point... but, do you remember how the Republican Guard deployed their T-72s? They dug them in up to their turrets to set up a defensive line, pretty much eliminating their mobility. They were sitting ducks for swarms of coalition (U.S., British, French, German and Austrailian) fighter/bombers. The Iraqis had no air defense systems along this line and they paid dearly for this mistake.
...
Back to the sanctions... personally... about the Iraqis... fuck 'em. If they weren't doing anything to rebel against Hussein ripping them off, it must not have been so bad... otherwise, they'd started this Civil War on their own. We have our own fucking problems in this country to solve, why should i care about them over there? Yeah, it's a bummer... but, there are other countries (in Africa) that were much worse off then they were... who put them at the top of our "We Have To Save Them" list?
True dat, regarding T-72 deployments. But it is also true that the single biggest enemy tank/APC killer in that war was none other than another tank, the M1 Abrams. As the Isrealis just learned (again), air power is no substitute for tracking down the enemy and going toe-to-toe.
As for the sanctions ... I see your point, but respectfully disagree. Honestly? A war to remove Saddam BACK THEN, back when the rest of the world was still on board, might have been better than these sanctions were, both in terms of military effectiveness AND in terms of minimizing civilian deaths. They should have finished the job then, instead of exposing Iraq to over a decade of economic ruin. The long-run result probably would have been better for that mess of a country.
The stupidity on this board never ceases to amaze me.
...
There... was that so hard to see? Patriot and Insurgent and Terrorist is relative to your viewpoint. Our Revolutionary War... we used 'terrorist' tactics on the British army and we didn't 'fight fair'. To them, were we terrorists... to us... we were Patriots.
The same thing could be happening over there... the silent support for insurgents in the face of an overwhelming military power... is it because they are being terrorized by the 'terrroists'... or are supporting their 'patriots'?
It is not the black and white you only see.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
True dat, regarding T-72 deployments. But it is also true that the single biggest enemy tank/APC killer in that war was none other than another tank, the M1 Abrams. As the Isrealis just learned (again), air power is no substitute for tracking down the enemy and going toe-to-toe.
As for the sanctions ... I see your point, but respectfully disagree. Honestly? A war to remove Saddam BACK THEN, back when the rest of the world was still on board, might have been better than these sanctions were, both in terms of military effectiveness AND in terms of minimizing civilian deaths. They should have finished the job then, instead of exposing Iraq to over a decade of economic ruin. The long-run result probably would have been better for that mess of a country.
...
I disagree. Remember, it was a different world in 1991. The coalition was primarily made up of Western firepower, but G.H.W.Bush and his administration, primarily Secretary of Defense Cheney, Joint Chief Colin Powell and Command leader Swartzkopf knew they needed full support of Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria) to go into Baghdad for the long term. The Arabs would not support this because to them, Hussein was a lesser of two evils when compared to the Shi'ite fundamentalists in Iran. it was the correct decision, at that time and under those circumstances... to end the Gulf War when we did and contain Hussein and keep him from attacking his neighbors.
The only thing that would be different would have been Iraq being G.H.W.Bush's War instead of his son's War. The French, Germans, Italians and other NATO allies would have withdrawn from this venture, too... since they have huge populations on Muslims at home and their ecomonies are deeply entangled with the Middle East's oil. And Russia, in 1991 (two years after their fall) was a wildcard that was completely unpredictable.
I think G.H.W.Bush had a good plan... get the Kurds and Shi'ites to rebel against Hussein and the rest of the world, lead by the U.S., would help them topple Hussein. But, we left them out in the cold and they got gassed. That wasn't a bad plan... just that it was sort of tossed out there as a whim, without the full and complete planning that it needed, to be successful.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So you would shoot at people trying to save you from a madman who uses chemical weapns on your own people? That's pretty moronic.
No. I'd probably be on their side right up until they blew up my house, or arrested and tortured my uncle for no good reason, or splattered my brother's brains all over some checkpoint, or raped my sister and shot grandpa in his wheelchair. After that, I'd be a little testy.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I dont think we should have gone into iraq; just because i think the iraqi people deserve Saddam. Their not intelligent enough to have elections..they need a dictator to tell them when to eat and pray. He did a great job killing his people..hell they probaly deserved it.
If i was Bush id put him back in power and give him some more weapons to relase on his own people.
I dont think we should have gone into iraq; just because i think the iraqi people deserve Saddam. Their not intelligent enough to have elections..they need a dictator to tell them when to eat and pray. He did a great job killing his people..hell they probaly deserved it.
If i was Bush id put him back in power and give him some more weapons to relase on his own people.
You crack me up
Edit: "Their not intelligent enough" ... thanks for that, that always makes me laugh especially hard.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I dont think we should have gone into iraq; just because i think the iraqi people deserve Saddam. Their not intelligent enough to have elections..they need a dictator to tell them when to eat and pray. He did a great job killing his people..hell they probaly deserved it.
If i was Bush id put him back in power and give him some more weapons to relase on his own people.
...
I gotta give you credit for honesty, here. I get sick of that, 'Saving the poor Iraqis' thing as an excuse for this war. You can't tell me these people gave a damn about Iraqis prior to G.W.Bush. The only Americans that really did care about them were the ones who wanted to drop the sanctions in 1996 to 2000... and they were very few and usually slightly to the left of Michael Moore.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
You are the true patriot. Congrats.
The stupidity on this board never ceases to amaze me.
I know... my point is that Iraq was not able to re-arm their conventional forces, let alone, any nuclear capabilities, because of the sanctions.
An un-related point... but, do you remember how the Republican Guard deployed their T-72s? They dug them in up to their turrets to set up a defensive line, pretty much eliminating their mobility. They were sitting ducks for swarms of coalition (U.S., British, French, German and Austrailian) fighter/bombers. The Iraqis had no air defense systems along this line and they paid dearly for this mistake.
...
Back to the sanctions... personally... about the Iraqis... fuck 'em. If they weren't doing anything to rebel against Hussein ripping them off, it must not have been so bad... otherwise, they'd started this Civil War on their own. We have our own fucking problems in this country to solve, why should i care about them over there? Yeah, it's a bummer... but, there are other countries (in Africa) that were much worse off then they were... who put them at the top of our "We Have To Save Them" list?
Hail, Hail!!!
True dat, regarding T-72 deployments. But it is also true that the single biggest enemy tank/APC killer in that war was none other than another tank, the M1 Abrams. As the Isrealis just learned (again), air power is no substitute for tracking down the enemy and going toe-to-toe.
As for the sanctions ... I see your point, but respectfully disagree. Honestly? A war to remove Saddam BACK THEN, back when the rest of the world was still on board, might have been better than these sanctions were, both in terms of military effectiveness AND in terms of minimizing civilian deaths. They should have finished the job then, instead of exposing Iraq to over a decade of economic ruin. The long-run result probably would have been better for that mess of a country.
There... was that so hard to see? Patriot and Insurgent and Terrorist is relative to your viewpoint. Our Revolutionary War... we used 'terrorist' tactics on the British army and we didn't 'fight fair'. To them, were we terrorists... to us... we were Patriots.
The same thing could be happening over there... the silent support for insurgents in the face of an overwhelming military power... is it because they are being terrorized by the 'terrroists'... or are supporting their 'patriots'?
It is not the black and white you only see.
Hail, Hail!!!
I disagree. Remember, it was a different world in 1991. The coalition was primarily made up of Western firepower, but G.H.W.Bush and his administration, primarily Secretary of Defense Cheney, Joint Chief Colin Powell and Command leader Swartzkopf knew they needed full support of Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria) to go into Baghdad for the long term. The Arabs would not support this because to them, Hussein was a lesser of two evils when compared to the Shi'ite fundamentalists in Iran. it was the correct decision, at that time and under those circumstances... to end the Gulf War when we did and contain Hussein and keep him from attacking his neighbors.
The only thing that would be different would have been Iraq being G.H.W.Bush's War instead of his son's War. The French, Germans, Italians and other NATO allies would have withdrawn from this venture, too... since they have huge populations on Muslims at home and their ecomonies are deeply entangled with the Middle East's oil. And Russia, in 1991 (two years after their fall) was a wildcard that was completely unpredictable.
I think G.H.W.Bush had a good plan... get the Kurds and Shi'ites to rebel against Hussein and the rest of the world, lead by the U.S., would help them topple Hussein. But, we left them out in the cold and they got gassed. That wasn't a bad plan... just that it was sort of tossed out there as a whim, without the full and complete planning that it needed, to be successful.
Hail, Hail!!!
If i was Bush id put him back in power and give him some more weapons to relase on his own people.
Edit: "Their not intelligent enough" ... thanks for that, that always makes me laugh especially hard.
I gotta give you credit for honesty, here. I get sick of that, 'Saving the poor Iraqis' thing as an excuse for this war. You can't tell me these people gave a damn about Iraqis prior to G.W.Bush. The only Americans that really did care about them were the ones who wanted to drop the sanctions in 1996 to 2000... and they were very few and usually slightly to the left of Michael Moore.
Hail, Hail!!!