Tracing Jewish origins...Shattering a 'national mythology'

RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
Interesting article. Ah the irony.

"As a side note. DNA testing (the results of which are banned from publication in Israel) confirms much of the above. As the history of man gets filled in using DNA, it becomes clear that the Ashkenazi are not the descendants of the biblical Hebrews. Indeed the closest direct descendants of the Biblical Hebrews appears to be the present-day Palestinians!

Religion is just comfortable myth; a set of lies mutually agreed upon by the faithful, but it should never be confused with history, science, or reality in general. People trained to believe in absurdities can be convinced to commit atrocities, such as those we see in Palestine."

" The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th century. From this, in effect, the whole book was born: in the realization that Judaic society was not dispersed and was not exiled."

"Q: If the people was not exiled, are you saying that in fact the real descendants of the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Judah are the Palestinians?"

"A: No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its descendents. The first Zionists, up until the Arab Revolt [1936-9], knew that there had been no exiling, and that the Palestinians were descended from the inhabitants of the land. They knew that farmers don't leave until they are expelled. Even Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, the second president of the State of Israel, wrote in 1929 that, 'the vast majority of the peasant farmers do not have their origins in the Arab conquerors, but rather, before then, in the Jewish farmers who were numerous and a majority in the building of the land.'"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.

http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • NoKNoK Posts: 824
    Good article.. thanks for the link.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Interesting article ... On a lighter note, who uses the words "Jewess" and "Jewry"? Wow.
    On a more serious note, regardless of historical origins, and this author is probably right in this regard, calling the Jewish people a "figment" is quite ridiculous. The people clearly exist as such today, regardless of whatever religious myth they use to bolster their group identity. These people are not a figment.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    Is this article actually alleging that Jews have no ethnic commonalities? If so, then how utterly ridiculous is that?

    And why does it keep referring to the Jews as Zionists? Not all Jews are Zionists.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Interesting article ... On a lighter note, who uses the words "Jewess" and "Jewry"? Wow.
    On a more serious note, regardless of historical origins, and this author is probably right in this regard, calling the Jewish people a "figment" is quite ridiculous. The people clearly exist as such today, regardless of whatever religious myth they use to bolster their group identity. These people are not a figment.

    much like the so called white race.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    sponger wrote:
    Is this article actually alleging that Jews have no ethnic commonalities? If so, then how utterly ridiculous is that?

    And why does it keep referring to the Jews as Zionists? Not all Jews are Zionists.

    One can certainty play "sociologist with too much time of theirs hands" with this article, and attempt to catch all of the subtle racist innuendos ...
    I am not referring to the book authors' conclusions ... I am referring to the tone of this piece about the book. Jewess? Come on.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    much like the so called white race.

    Or the so-called any race, for that matter.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Or the so-called any race, for that matter.

    indeed. i just find it amusing that race is an issue on any level and in regards to anything at all.

    i remember once seeing this ku klux klanner on the tv years and years ago. the guy was hispanic. and i thought what a tool. has he any idea of his history. is he aware that the moors were in spain. and here he is spouting his hate bulllshit, when tis possible he just may well have 'tainted' blood running through his veins. and lets not get into the fact that jesus was jewish and the contempt with which the KKK hold those people whilst preaching their lords name.
    there is no race except the human race. and its far from pure.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    indeed. i just find it amusing that race is an issue on any level and in regards to anything at all.

    i remember once seeing this ku klux klanner on the tv years and years ago. the guy was hispanic. and i thought what a tool. has he any idea of his history. is he aware that the moors were in spain. and here he is spouting his hate bulllshit, when tis possible he just may well have 'tainted' blood running through his veins. and lets not get into the fact that jesus was jewish and the contempt with which the KKK hold those people whilst preaching their lords name.
    there is no race except the human race. and its far from pure.

    A hispanic Klansman? That's awesome ... Well, maybe awesome's the wrong word. More like hideously retarded.
    Anyhow, race is a social construction that happens to have some minimal basis in physical/genetic reality. That's why it is such a problem. There are just enough to real differences to enable people to erect barriers and cause all sorts of bullshit in the name of "racial purity" ... Even the notion of "racial equality" can cause problems, and the intent there is fundamentally good. Race is a dangerous construct, that too many people, white and non-white, put to poor uses.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    A hispanic Klansman? That's awesome ... Well, maybe awesome's the wrong word. More like hideously retarded.
    Anyhow, race is a social construction that happens to have some minimal basis in physical/genetic reality. That's why it is such a problem. There are just enough to real differences to enable people to erect barriers and cause all sorts of bullshit in the name of "racial purity" ... Even the notion of "racial equality" can cause problems, and the intent there is fundamentally good. Race is a dangerous construct, that too many people, white and non-white, put to poor uses.

    welll no one said klanspeople were smart. just incredilby dangerous.

    oh i agree that race is a social construct. it was a tool of exclusion. as for racial equality, that implies an inequality somewhere and we know all human are equal.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    One can certainty play "sociologist with too much time of theirs hands" with this article, and attempt to catch all of the subtle racist innuendos ...
    I am not referring to the book authors' conclusions ... I am referring to the tone of this piece about the book. Jewess? Come on.

    I think you may have misunderstood the intent of my post. I was not being sarcastic.
  • Interesting article ... On a lighter note, who uses the words "Jewess" and "Jewry"? Wow.
    On a more serious note, regardless of historical origins, and this author is probably right in this regard, calling the Jewish people a "figment" is quite ridiculous. The people clearly exist as such today, regardless of whatever religious myth they use to bolster their group identity. These people are not a figment.

    Strange choice of words, I agree. I'm not sure how far into the history thing he's going,maybe his head is buried in centuries of antiquated research and terminology, but Jewess, and Jewry sounds pretty ridiculous.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • OffHeGoes29OffHeGoes29 Posts: 1,240
    This reminds me of Dave Chappelle's blind racist.......
    BRING BACK THE WHALE
  • NoKNoK Posts: 824
    Its funny how people jump to attach racist insignia when it comes to Israel, pretty much distracting people from the original message which was:

    "Indeed the closest direct descendants of the Biblical Hebrews appears to be the present-day Palestinians".. which pretty much shatters any justification Westerners had for the creation of Israel.

    The guy doing the research is Israeli and the website publishing the article is Israeli so I am to believe they are being racist against themselves? Good one.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    NoK wrote:
    Its funny how people jump to attach racist insignia when it comes to Israel, pretty much distracting people from the original message which was:

    "Indeed the closest direct descendants of the Biblical Hebrews appears to be the present-day Palestinians".. which pretty much shatters any justification Westerners had for the creation of Israel.

    The guy doing the research is Israeli and the website publishing the article is Israeli so I am to believe they are being racist against themselves? Good one.

    mere inconvenience my friend. ;):)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • NoK wrote:
    Its funny how people jump to attach racist insignia when it comes to Israel, pretty much distracting people from the original message which was:

    "Indeed the closest direct descendants of the Biblical Hebrews appears to be the present-day Palestinians".. which pretty much shatters any justification Westerners had for the creation of Israel.

    The guy doing the research is Israeli and the website publishing the article is Israeli so I am to believe they are being racist against themselves? Good one.

    The anti-Semitic bandwagon (edit: anti Jewish....Palestinians are Semitic as well) has nice plush comfy heated seats.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    NoK wrote:

    "Indeed the closest direct descendants of the Biblical Hebrews appears to be the present-day Palestinians"..

    It's an interesting premise. It's just too bad the author's motivation behind it is clear as day. You'd think he'd be smart enough to conceal his own prejudices against Jews so that his "findings" could pass for something worth chewing on. Turns out he's just another one of those people who believe it's possible to "objectively" hate.
  • NoKNoK Posts: 824
    sponger wrote:
    It's an interesting premise. It's just too bad the author's motivation behind it is clear as day. You'd think he'd be smart enough to conceal his own prejudices against Jews so that his "findings" could pass for something worth chewing on. Turns out he's just another one of those people who believe it's possible to "objectively" hate.

    Mate.. the author is Jewish. His parents were survivors of the Holocaust.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand

    You can compare him to the Americans or Australians who now accept they stole the land from its original inhabitants. Only there aren't many Israeli's who can accept that 60 years from the creation of Israel. I doubt there were any Americans or Australians who accepted this 60 years after their creation.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    NoK wrote:
    Mate.. the author is Jewish. His parents were survivors of the Holocaust.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand

    I can't say I know many Jews who use the words, "Jewry", "Jewess", and throw the word "Zionist" around like they have OCD about it.

    Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter what his background is.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    sponger wrote:
    It's an interesting premise. It's just too bad the author's motivation behind it is clear as day. You'd think he'd be smart enough to conceal his own prejudices against Jews so that his "findings" could pass for something worth chewing on. Turns out he's just another one of those people who believe it's possible to "objectively" hate.

    its more than interesting. its totally plausible. and hardly the far fetched premise some would intimate it to be.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • NoKNoK Posts: 824
    The anti-Semitic bandwagon (edit: anti Jewish....Palestinians are Semitic as well) has nice plush comfy heated seats.

    .. with an additional beer holder if you say it with an exclamation mark!
  • NoKNoK Posts: 824
    sponger wrote:
    I can't say I know many Jews who use the words, "Jewry", "Jewess", and throw the word "Zionist" around like they have OCD about it.

    Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter what his background is.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jewry

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jewess

    I don't see the problem with these words.. Besides the author is Israeli his first language might not be English.

    Edit: Ok I just saw that it says "usually offensive" for Jewess.. usually.. but fair enough.. dont see whats wrong with Jewry though
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