Slow Death in Gaza

RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
edited June 2008 in A Moving Train
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m44602&hd=&size=1&l=e

"June 4, 2008

Each American claim to moral authority becomes a foul excretion in light of U.S. complicity in Israel's barbaric and illegal treatment of the Palestinians. Washington deploys its superpower apparatus to smother dissent against its Middle East policy in Europe and elsewhere, leaving former president Jimmy Carter and Nobel laureate Desmond Tutu as lonely defenders of Palestinian human rights. No change in American policy is on the horizon, as "the rot in America goes beyond this administration, and so does the rot in Israel." The "abomination," as Desmond Tutu describes it, against 1.6 million people in Palestine shows the hypocrisy of American and Israeli pretenses to civilization.

"The Europeans seem to be quite satisfied acting as America's puppet states."

How would the civilized world react if 1.6 million people were kept imprisoned, denied access to food, clean water, sanitation facilities and electricity? If those people were also prevented from fleeing their oppression, would Americans and Europeans speak out in protest?

If those aforesaid people lived in Gaza, and were oppressed by Israel, then the civilized world would say and do absolutely nothing. Israel is the Untied States' number one client state, and fear of American power has silenced everyone on earth who has the power to stop this atrocity.

While Tibet and Darfur are the subjects of selective cause celebre condemnation, there are almost no voices raised publicly on behalf of Palestinians, who live in danger of indiscriminate shelling and gunfire, whose homes are destroyed by Israeli tanks, and who are literally denied an exit from their hellish existence. While they suffer, Israel continues to build settlements on what is rightfully Palestinian land.

It is not surprising that Washington takes no action against Israel, but silence from the rest of the world community is the most shocking aspect of this continued violation of human rights. Former president Jimmy Carter and Nobel peace prize laureate Desmond Tutu are alone among world leaders who openly condemn the Israeli government and the complicit silence from other nations.

Gaza's woes began in 2006 when its people voted for a government headed by Hamas, the Palestinian group that Israel and the U.S. didn't like. The United States then demanded a blockade of Gaza and the rest of the so-called Quartet (European Union, Russia, the United Nations) went along. Carter has revealed the ugly truth about this decision."The Quartet's final document had been drafted in Washington in advance, and not a line was changed."

"Former president Jimmy Carter and Nobel peace prize laureate Desmond Tutu are alone among world leaders who openly condemn the Israeli government."

Carter called the blockade that has imprisoned more than 1 million people a "human rights crime." He has called on the other Quartet members to break with the United States and end the blockade and he has tried in vain to encourage the Europeans to oppose American policy. "Why not? They're not our vassals. They occupy an equal position with the U.S." Apparently Carter has given Europeans more credit than they give themselves. They seem to be quite satisfied acting as America's puppet states.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu has joined Carter in calling for international action to end Gaza's suffering. He recently led a United Nations Human Rights Council delegation to Gaza specifically to investigate the 2006 killings of 19 members of a Palestinian family whose homes were destroyed by Israeli rocket fire in the town of Beit Hanoun.

The Israeli government made no pretense of showing Tutu the respect that he receives everywhere else on earth. The government refused to grant him and the other members of his party entry into Israel, and they were forced to enter Gaza through Egypt. Tutu's conclusions about the situation in Gaza were inescapable and obvious. Yet the words may seem odd to American ears, who never hear a discouraging word about their government or Israel's.

"This is not something you want to wish on your worst enemy," said Tutu. He called the situation in Gaza "abominable" and condemned the "silent complicity" of the world community. He called the killings at Beit Hanoun a "massacre" and in a diplomatic understatement said that Israel's explanations of the killings "fell short of accountability."

"Gazans have nothing to look forward to except more suffering."

The situation in Gaza is of course a result of America's support of Israel.
In the past that support was at least tacitly criticized by the world community, but now shows signs of being accepted in much the same way that all of America's aggression has become accepted.

America is feared like a bully on the playground and European nations have decided to be quiet and let Bush have his way. Jimmy Carter said they should not be "supine" but they are, and so they acquiesce, living in denial and inertia while running out the clock until January 2009 in hopes of getting a better deal.

They won't. The rot in America goes beyond this administration, and so does the rot in Israel. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert may be forced to resign because he has been caught taking bribes from a rich American. United States foreign policy will not change with a new administration. Only Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu will have anything to say about the crime being committed in Gaza, but neither of them are in power, so their words won't matter at all. Gazans have nothing to look forward to except more suffering, more Beit Hanouns and more silence from the rest of the world. "
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.

http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • Associated article:

    http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m44611&hd=&size=1&l=e

    "June 4, 2008

    "Can you imagine that when a child of mine asks me for one shekel [USD 0.30], I can't afford to give it to him? That's why I hide from my children from early in the morning until evening."

    Naser al-Batran is a 41-year-old father of five children living in the central Gaza Strip. He used to work for a weaving factory inside Israel but found himself jobless after Israel's total closure of Gaza's travel and commercial crossings in June 2007, worsening an already difficult economic situation since Israel began shutting out Palestinian laborers years ago.

    "Life has become miserable, extremely miserable," he said.

    The crippling economic blockade of the Gaza Strip colors all aspects of life there. According to the Hamas-run Palestinian Health Ministry, 70 percent of Gaza's 1.5 million residents suffer from anemia, including 44 percent of pregnant women.


    Malnutrition among Palestinian children has also increased over the past 11 months, affecting more than 10 percent of Gaza's children under the age of 18, according to the Gaza City-based Ard al-Insan health organization.

    A recent survey conducted by Ard al-Insan revealed that around 10.4 percent of households in Gaza City and in the northern and southern Gaza Strip suffer from chronic malnutrition. Stunting and low birth weights are also affecting children there.

    "The inability of the majority of Palestinian households to purchase basic food items has increased the magnitude of this health problem," explained Dr. Adnan Abdel Aziz al-Wahadi, the head of the health care unit of Ard Al-Insan.

    "In comparison with previous times, the demand for health and nutrition care has increased over the past 11 months, as evidenced, for example, by a survey conducted in 2003 indicating that only 3.4 percent of households had malnutrition during that year," Dr. al-Wahadi explained.

    A large number of households in Gaza are currently unable to afford essential food items. Israel's siege and collective punishment on the Gaza Strip following the democratically-elected Hamas government's takeover there a year ago has been characterized by severe restrictions on food and fuel imports.

    The situation means that Palestinians in Gaza are simply unable to afford former staples. Mohammed Mohareb, a fishmonger at the Nuseirat refugee camp market in the central Gaza Strip, complained of the residents' inability to buy fish.

    "Prior to these circumstances, I would bring in 100 boxes of fish, but now I only bring in 20, and I still can't sell all of the fish. Now, I lose much more than I earn," he said.


    Nour al-Din Abu-Saqer, a fruit vendor, standing idle behind his fruit stand in the Maghazi refugee camp market in the central Gaza Strip, lamented, "Over the past couple of months, people have become even less likely to buy fruit, bearing in mind that for the past 11 months we have been selling less fruit than we used to."

    "We only sell fruit during the first week of each month when government employees obtain their salaries. During the rest of the month, many of our goods perish as sales go down. The prices are beyond people's purchasing power, especially for those who are unemployed," he explained.

    The World Food Program states that 80 percent of households in the Gaza Strip depend on international food aid as the unemployment rate has reached more than 80 percent.

    More than 95 percent of Gaza's industrial sector, involving textiles, canneries, weaving factories and metal workshops has already stopped working, rendering 32,000 laborers jobless.


    Last month, Israel further reduced shipments of diesel, cooking gas, and food into the Gaza Strip, thus aggravating the deteriorating living conditions to the extent that many motorists were forced to use cooking oil instead of diesel to keep their vehicles running.

    "We are a society with no natural resources; the only resource we have is the human one, so unless there is adequate food and health, how are we supposed to develop a nation?" wondered Dr. al-Wahadi. For the time being, it seems this question will remain unanswered."
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Meanwhile third world cities in the US are slowly approaching gaza in economic terms.


    I wonder when people will figure out what it really means to rule.
  • And the world remains quiet... in compliance.

    ...frightened that some Arab and his/her right to defend themselves as human beings, is going to attack them.

    Maybe the world is full of closet racists, that put masks on in public and just pretend.

    And they all complain and chatter about how there is no peace in the world these days....so they work until their wits end, drag themselves home, switch on their TV's, and the cycle of mind programming continues.

    madness...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Thanks for posting.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    One of the worst things is how people try to justify everything by pointing out the "rocket attacks" that kill 0.1 people on average. Because, you know, that's what those 1.6 million people deserve.
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    But...but...but...Roland, Israel has the right to defend itself from those evil and war-mongering Palestinians:rolleyes:

    I think it was Byrnzie who touched on this in another thread, some time earlier today.

    What Israel is doing is exactly the same thing that was done to the Native American Indians, right here; several hundred years ago. There's a sickening and identical strategy at work.

    Right down to the massive marketing to demonize Palestinians and paint Israel as poor, little victims simply protecting themselves from those evil Palestianian suicide bombers. It's repulsive.

    Remember the stories of how settlers/pioneers were harmless families simply minding their own business, who were attacked, slaughtered/scalped by those vicious and savage Native American Indians?

    It's amazing to me how many americans completely buy into the "Israel has a right to defend themselves " bit. As if anyone ever claimed Israel didn't have a right to do so. As if Israel didn't invade, occupy and continue to expand trhrough murdeous brute force and manipulation of resources.

    But hey, Obama announced complete and all encompassing support and financing to Israel. So people like Yammie just digest what they are told and enter it into their memory banks. Then go about their merry, robotic way; repeating what they've been told to think and say.
  • NMyTree wrote:
    But...but...but...Roland, Israel has the right to defend itself from those evil and war-mongering Palestinians:rolleyes:

    I think it was Byrnzie who touched on this in another thread, some time earlier today.

    What Israel is doing is exactly the same thing that was done to the Native American Indians, right here; several hundred years ago. There's a sickening and identical strategy at work.

    Right down to the massive marketing to demonize Palestinians and paint Israel as poor, little victims simply protecting themselves from those evil Palestianian suicide bombers. It's repulsive.

    Remember the stories of how settlers/pioneers were harmless families simply minding their own business, who were attacked, slaughtered/scalped by those vicious and savage Native American Indians?

    It's amazing to me how many americans completely buy into the "Israel has a right to defend themselves " bit. As if anyone ever claimed Israel didn't have a right to do so. As if Israel didn't invade, occupy and continue to expand trhrough murdeous brute force and manipulation of resources.

    But hey, Obama announced complete and all encompassing support and financing to Israel. So people like Yammie just digest what they are told and enter it into their memory banks. Then go about their merry, robotic way; repeating what they've been told to think and say.

    People are usually so busy at working to survive, then when they come home they are tired, so they unwind to watch TV, food is in the stomach from a fresh meal so less blood to the brain as it moves to the stomach to aid digestion, and they don't want to think anymore from doing it all day in a boring stressful environment, so the mind is susceptible and very open to suggestion. Mental defenses and critial thinking is dulled significantly.

    That is if they even watch much news other than meticulously crafted sound bytes designed to implant specific beliefs, v.s. random mindless distraction type programs. People want to be numbed, and pacified, because the whole cycle begins again soon enough in the morning.

    Anyone who knows what's really going on in this world first of all needs spare time, in and around a 2 -3 hours a day, and gets their news from the internet from respectable and connected sources where millions or ears to the ground are able to interact together and paint a far more accurate portrait of our global reality. A two way melting pot of ongoing ideas and interaction. This situation also has to be sought out and evaluated from various sources as a learning process in and of itself to even be effective.

    really...it's no wonder... If they ever want to really take over the world again full force...just dismantle the internet.

    One could say the mainstream media is the water...and "it's" in the water.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    This is what happens when you elect the wrong person in a free and democratic election.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    Ahhhh...how refreshing...another anti-Israeli circle jerk.

    This is exactly why peace and progress, especially in that region, is tough to obtain...no one looking at both sides of the story. Welcome to "Part of the Problem"...enjoy your stay.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Ahhhh...how refreshing...another anti-Israeli circle jerk.

    This is exactly why peace and progress, especially in that region, is tough to obtain...no one looking at both sides of the story. Welcome to "Part of the Problem"...enjoy your stay.

    I laughed out loud when reading this post.

    ''both sides of the story' - go on then, enlighten us, and provide some justification for the imprisonment, starving, and terrorising of 1.6 million people.
    I can't wait to hear it. Though somehow I think I know what tuneless old record you're gonna play; something about 'recognizing Israel', and 'renouncing terror', right?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I laughed out loud when reading this post.

    ''both sides of the story' - go on then, enlighten us, and provide some justification for the imprisonment, starving, and terrorising of 1.6 million people.
    I can't wait to hear it. Though somehow I think I know what tuneless old record you're gonna play; something about 'recognizing Israel', and 'renouncing terror', right?


    I'm not gonna bother as you don't wanna listen.

    This is getting tiresome...I'm sorry I posted in the first place...please just ignore.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Ahhhh...how refreshing...another anti-Israeli circle jerk.

    This is exactly why peace and progress, especially in that region, is tough to obtain...no one looking at both sides of the story. Welcome to "Part of the Problem"...enjoy your stay.


    That's too funny.

    In about a gazillion other threads I have repeatidly called for responsibility, accountability and civility from both sides of this conflict. Stated they both need to get past the "Who Started It" mentality and work in towards peace with honesty, conviction and integrity.

    You respond as if you've never been involved in any of those threads, whatsoever and just walked into the MT, for the first time.

    But you can't discount the fact of invasion, occupation and illegal expansion by Israel. And they continue to expand their territories, with each new coming day. Israel has broken and continues to break International Laws .....over and over again.

    Thems is the facts, jack!

    To dismiss, ignore and diminish these facts can only be an indication of a pre-existing bias or favorable preference for Israel.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    NMyTree wrote:

    But you can't discount the fact of invasion, occupation and illegal expansion by Israel. And they continue to expand their territories, with each new coming day. Israel has broken and continues to break International Laws .....over and over again.

    Thems is the facts, jack!

    To dismiss, ignore and diminish these facts can only be an indication of a pre-existing bias or favorable preference for Israel.

    I agree that Israel's actions have undermined the chance for peaces. Absolutely. I don't know where I ever said that it didn't.

    I actually find the Israeli-Palestine conflict very sad, but also very interesting. I enjoy good discussion on the topic, however I find that too many people see only 1 side of the argument...anyway...
    hippiemom = goodness
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    I agree that Israel's actions have undermined the chance for peaces. Absolutely. I don't know where I ever said that it didn't.

    I actually find the Israeli-Palestine conflict very sad, but also very interesting. I enjoy good discussion on the topic, however I find that too many people see only 1 side of the argument...anyway...


    I think a lot of people have a very difficult time getting past the invasion, occupation and illegal expansion by Israel. They see that (as I do) as being the main catalyst of all the problems, without a doubt it certainly is.

    And Israel continues to flip the finger to International Law (and the world), as it continues to commit more attrocities and more expansion; every day.

    It becomes increasingly more difficult to have any respect and empathy for Israel, when they behave this way.

    If they want to be "recognized" then I would think showing some respect, empathy and willingness for reasonable compromise would be in order.

    The more you say "Fuck You " to International Law, continue illegal expansion and commit even more attrocities; the more people you anger and turn against you. Respect through respectful actions earns you respect.

    There's a reason a whole lot of Orthodox Jews are against what the Israeli government is doing. And against the Zionists. But it's not just the Orthodox.

    There are a lot of Jews who completely disagree with appraoch and actions of the Israeli government.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    NMyTree wrote:
    I think a lot of people have a very difficult time getting past the invasion, occupation and illegal expansion by Israel. They see that (as I do) as being the main catalyst of all the problems, without a doubt it certainly is.

    And Israel continues to flip the finger to International Law (and the world), as it continues to commit more attrocities and more expansion; every day.

    It becomes increasingly more difficult to have any respect and empathy for Israel, when they behave this way.

    If they want to be "recognized" then I would think showing some respect, empathy and willingness for reasonable compromise would be in order.

    The more you say "Fuck You " to International Law, continue illegal expansion and commit even more attrocities; the more people you anger and turn against you. Respect through respectful actions earns you respect.

    There's a reason a whole lot of Orthodox Jews are against what the Israeli government is doing. And against the Zionists. But it's not just the Orthodox.

    There are a lot of Jews who completely disagree with appraoch and actions of the Israeli government.

    When you back a Tiger into a corner...what happens? And whether or not it is true, the Israeli gov't believes it to be true...as do the Palestinians...they both think they are backed into the corner and use that to justify everythign they do.

    It's understandable that people get angry and scared and want revenge when someone blows themselves up on a bus or outside a theater killing many civilians (even children)...as it's understandable that people feel overwhelmed and want ot fight back when someone bulldozes their house...or kills their family. That's a lot of hate built in a small amount of time in a large number of people. Now, allow that hate to build day after day, month after month, year after year...pretty soon all anyone knows is that they hate the other guy. They don't even see each other as fellow human beings...which allows them to continue to do the things they do without remorse.

    I'll be honest, I have no idea how to solve the problem there. Nothing will happen unless each side gets a leader that is willing to take heat from their own people to stand up for what's right (and they survive that heat). It's hard to imagine people actually wanting to live the way they do, so there is some hope.

    The funniest thing about this thread is the fact that I mistyped 'peace' as 'peaces'...it sounds like I'm 5. ;)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Ahhhh...how refreshing...another anti-Israeli circle jerk.

    This is exactly why peace and progress, especially in that region, is tough to obtain...no one looking at both sides of the story. Welcome to "Part of the Problem"...enjoy your stay.

    My favorite part was when they said we're all "closet racists". Super original!
  • I'm not gonna bother as you don't wanna listen.

    This is getting tiresome...I'm sorry I posted in the first place...please just ignore.


    No please try....

    I want to hear you make excuses for an apartheid regime.

    It would be interesting to see.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    No please try....

    I want to hear you make excuses for an apartheid regime.

    It would be interesting to see.


    What you don;t seem to understand is I'm not going to defend anyone. I just happen to think both sides are wrong, but apparently all that does is get me called a racist by everyone.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • What you don;t seem to understand is I'm not going to defend anyone. I just happen to think both sides are wrong, but apparently all that does is get me called a racist by everyone.


    I do understand. That's the point.

    how many years have you been studying this situation?

    edit: The common misconception is that Arabs are terrorists. This is a fallacy. The holocaust is being used as an excuse to murder people. That's an abomination and a disgrace to all those that died during it.

    Isreal needs to clean up it's act and stop stealing land and acting like the bull in the china shop. But they won't. They don't care about peace. It's not about peace.. It's about taking over.

    War is their tool to continue killing, so they nurture it's climate causing a reaction.

    They have declared the land theirs and are genociding all that stand in their way.

    Those that resist are "terrorists". It's ridiculous.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I do understand. That's the point.

    how many years have you been studying this situation?

    edit: The common misconception is that Arabs are terrorists. This is a fallacy. The holocaust is being used as an excuse to murder people. That's an abomination and a disgrace to all those that died during it.

    Isreal needs to clean up it's act and stop stealing land and acting like the bull in the china shop. But they won't. They don't care about peace. It's not about peace.. It's about taking over.

    War is their tool to continue killing, so they nurture it's climate causing a reaction.

    They have declared the land theirs and are genociding all that stand in their way.

    Those that resist are "terrorists". It's ridiculous.

    Can you please:

    a) Clarify your argument that everyone thinks Arab = terrorist, as well as your point regarding "using the Holocaust" as an excuse to murder people? Do you have data that back up the point that the average American honestly believes that all Arabs are terrorists, and can you say more about how the Holocaust is used as an excuse? By whom, exactly?

    b) Explain what this "genociding everyone who stands in their way" look like? To me, genocide is a systematic approach to exterminating all people of a particular creed. Not just combatants on the battlefield, and not just civilians killed within the context of war, but actual concentration camps, systematic use of force to kill everyone in a given area (rather than trying to be selective, etc.). Usually, there is some extremist form of ideology backing up the genocidal practices. Are you proposing the existance of a more subtle approach to genocide? The Diet Coke of genocide, perhaps?

    c) Explain how the actions of Palestinian militants do not meet most or all commonly excepted definitions of terrorism? If you're just using that old chestnut, the whole "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" adage, can you explain how exactly Palestinian "resistence" is helping the situation, in any sense? Do militant actions seem to be bringing the region any closer to peace? Are militant actions likely to lead to more or less Israeli military intervention? Does two wrongs indeed make a right, perhaps just this time?

    Thanks.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Can you please:
    a) Clarify your argument that everyone thinks Arab = terrorist, as well as your point regarding "using the Holocaust" as an excuse to murder people? Do you have data that back up the point that the average American honestly believes that all Arabs are terrorists, and can you say more about how the Holocaust is used as an excuse? By whom, exactly?

    I think your first point wouldn't be too dificult to prove. Your average man on the street in the U.S, or Britain, will equate most Arabs with terrorism. I'm sure you could easily find plenty of evidence to show this.
    As for the second point, that's asking for a very detailed explanation. Maybe I'll just refer you to Norman Finkelstein's book - 'The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering'.
    http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Industry-Reflections-Exploitation-Suffering/dp/185984488X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212812084&sr=8-1
    b) Explain what this "genociding everyone who stands in their way" look like? To me, genocide is a systematic approach to exterminating all people of a particular creed. Not just combatants on the battlefield, and not just civilians killed within the context of war, but actual concentration camps, systematic use of force to kill everyone in a given area (rather than trying to be selective, etc.). Usually, there is some extremist form of ideology backing up the genocidal practices. Are you proposing the existance of a more subtle approach to genocide? The Diet Coke of genocide, perhaps?

    Ethnic cleansing, genocide...the Palestinians are being forcibly expelled from their land. Thousands are murdered every year. It is a form of genocide. Maybe not as blatant as the Nazi death camps, but I think the description still fits.
    c) Explain how the actions of Palestinian militants do not meet most or all commonly excepted definitions of terrorism? If you're just using that old chestnut, the whole "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" adage, can you explain how exactly Palestinian "resistence" is helping the situation, in any sense? Do militant actions seem to be bringing the region any closer to peace? Are militant actions likely to lead to more or less Israeli military intervention? Does two wrongs indeed make a right, perhaps just this time?

    Thanks.


    No, it doesn't help the situation. But neither does Israeli terrorism. Then again, what other options do the Palestinians have? Ceasefires don't work as Israel continues building more settlements and continues it's incursions, and extra-judicial executions, home demolitions e.t.c.
    Israel has all the options but refuses to use them.
    The Palestinians have no option save violence.

    One more thing...I find it interesting that anyone who crticises the illegal and brutal Israeli occupation is nearly always expected to clarify and explain their comments, whereas it seems to be quite acceptable to throw out comments such as 'the Palestinian terrorists', or 'the Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel', e.t.c, e.t.c, without any demand being made for clarification.
    I wonder why this is?
  • Can you please:

    a) Clarify your argument that everyone thinks Arab = terrorist, as well as your point regarding "using the Holocaust" as an excuse to murder people? Do you have data that back up the point that the average American honestly believes that all Arabs are terrorists, and can you say more about how the Holocaust is used as an excuse? By whom, exactly?

    b) Explain what this "genociding everyone who stands in their way" look like? To me, genocide is a systematic approach to exterminating all people of a particular creed. Not just combatants on the battlefield, and not just civilians killed within the context of war, but actual concentration camps, systematic use of force to kill everyone in a given area (rather than trying to be selective, etc.). Usually, there is some extremist form of ideology backing up the genocidal practices. Are you proposing the existance of a more subtle approach to genocide? The Diet Coke of genocide, perhaps?

    c) Explain how the actions of Palestinian militants do not meet most or all commonly excepted definitions of terrorism? If you're just using that old chestnut, the whole "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" adage, can you explain how exactly Palestinian "resistence" is helping the situation, in any sense? Do militant actions seem to be bringing the region any closer to peace? Are militant actions likely to lead to more or less Israeli military intervention? Does two wrongs indeed make a right, perhaps just this time?

    Thanks.

    Firstly look into the neo-zionist mindset. It's not about sharing. It about Gods given right to take and own.. They believe only ONE people have rights to that land.. and that's Jews...and Jews only. No exceptions. No sharing. When you oppose this extremely racist ideology, one is immediately labeled a anti semitic racist Jew hater, and they say "maybe you''d wish we all burned to death in the ovens".

    Such a predictable and common tactic to see. Zionism is has evolved into a war party now. Just as The republican ideology has been hijacked into a group of war mongers. They are now one and the same entity glued together by AIPAC.

    Genocide is happening in slow motion in Gaza, but it's definitely happening. It need not be carried out through bullets and guns or quickly, In any event, the Palestinian ethnicity is being cleansed and wiped from those lands. If i I cut off your food, money, and sanitation and ability to obtain those basic human needs guess what...you're officially dying! Now apply that to your entire family and relatives. Make no mistake about it, it's genocide towards a group of people. Basic common sense.

    You need to understand a human beings basic right to defend themselves when an foreign enemy combatant attacks them, steals their land, occupies it in spite of their existence.

    This is all 101 type stuff.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Byrnzie wrote:
    The Palestinians have no option save violence.

    One more thing...I find it interesting that anyone who crticises the illegal and brutal Israeli occupation is nearly always expected to clarify and explain their comments, whereas it seems to be quite acceptable to throw out comments such as 'the Palestinian terrorists', or 'the Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel', e.t.c, e.t.c, without any demand being made for clarification.
    I wonder why this is?

    The Palestinians have no option but violence? How so? Why is this ineffective option somehow preferrable to other ineffective options (assuming that nonviolence is ineffective, something that has yet to be proven). Is there something that you inherently like about terrorism? I am going to assume not, but you haven't stated why you think violence is the only choice.

    And quite frankly, I can do without the "101 type stuff" comments. If you want to call me stupid, do it directly.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    And I will check out that book ... Looks interesting.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    And I will check out that book ... Looks interesting.

    I've not had a chance to watch these yet, but they could be inteteresting. He's a very impressive public speaker. I'll give them a look later - just on my lunch break now.

    The Holocaust Industry
    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeVR8xHODxU
    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaeMT44yX2M&feature=related
    Part 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-UOwwigVGU&feature=related
    Part 4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_Anf4BgLzA&feature=related
    Part 5
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nvL5BHla2o&feature=related
    Part 6
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbF1uHocV8&feature=related
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    The Palestinians have no option but violence? How so? Why is this ineffective option somehow preferrable to other ineffective options (assuming that nonviolence is ineffective, something that has yet to be proven). Is there something that you inherently like about terrorism? I am going to assume not, but you haven't stated why you think violence is the only choice.

    Firstly, as far as nonviolence being effective. Maybe you can provide one example of where it was effective, especially in regards to one country attempting to cope with an invasion from an outside force which wishes to establish an ethnic sovereignty on the area which it has moved into. I'm not aware of any.
  • The Palestinians have no option but violence? How so? Why is this ineffective option somehow preferrable to other ineffective options (assuming that nonviolence is ineffective, something that has yet to be proven). Is there something that you inherently like about terrorism? I am going to assume not, but you haven't stated why you think violence is the only choice.

    And quite frankly, I can do without the "101 type stuff" comments. If you want to call me stupid, do it directly.


    When someone is hell bent on taking your land, and they don't care if you live or breathe, or protest, but actually prefer that you are in fact dead and gone. What choice do you have? It's a life or death situation based on a theft instigated from a foreign occupying force that has zero respect for you and what you want.

    Israel creates an environment for oppression and anger, and conflict by continually stealing land and denying the basic human rights of the Palestinian people. When the Palestinians do get fed up (from seeing their family members get murdered on a regular basis amongst soo many other unbearable daily realities), and try to defend themselves, they are demonized in the media which is in fact fully complicit and owned by the very same people doing the deed in the first place.

    It's closed loop age old recipe designed to eliminate a group of people, take what they have, and continue on doing it.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • The world is witnessing a terrible human rights crime in Gaza, where a million and a half human beings are being imprisoned with almost no access to the outside world. An entire population is being brutally punished.
    http://sudhan.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/jimmy-carter-a-human-rights-crime/

    Gaza: The Auschwitz of our Time
    http://sudhan.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/gaza-the-auschwitz-of-our-time/

    Who's daughter is this?
    http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/americans-must-see-this-they-paid-for-it/
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    The Palestinians have no option but violence? How so? Why is this ineffective option somehow preferrable to other ineffective options (assuming that nonviolence is ineffective, something that has yet to be proven). Is there something that you inherently like about terrorism? I am going to assume not, but you haven't stated why you think violence is the only choice.

    Firstly, as far as nonviolence being effective. Maybe you can provide one example of where it was effective, especially in regards to one country attempting to cope with an invasion from an outside force which wishes to establish an ethnic sovereignty on the area which it has moved into. I'm not aware of any.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    I've not had a chance to watch these yet, but they could be inteteresting. He's a very impressive public speaker. I'll give them a look later - just on my lunch break now.

    The Holocaust Industry
    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeVR8xHODxU
    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaeMT44yX2M&feature=related
    Part 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-UOwwigVGU&feature=related
    Part 4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_Anf4BgLzA&feature=related
    Part 5
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nvL5BHla2o&feature=related
    Part 6
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbF1uHocV8&feature=related

    Just started watching these. Very good. Very illuminating.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
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