The Flouride debate thing again

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Anyone still think fluoride is a good thing to have in their drinking water?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=fluoride+causes+tooth+decay&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


"Fluoride is actually a poison! The American Dental Association has been through tons of lawsuits and has now admitted that fluoride not only rots teeth from the inside but that it also causes gum disease as well. Fluoride has major negative effects on humans such as increase risk for bone cancer (especially in boys), puts holes in brain tissue, damages liver and kidneys, calcifies arteries and increases risk for hypothyroid conditions.

Fluoride’s main natural element is fluorine, which is a toxic gas that is the most chemically active non-metallic element. When fluorine is combined with hydrogen it makes hydrofluoric acid, a chemical used to dissolve glass. The Nazis diluted fluoride compounds three parts per million in drinking water to calm prisoners. Fluoride is also used to kill rats. "

Strangest Tribe

Toothpaste and overbrushing also cause teeth and gums to deteriorate.

....that's the word on the streets at least

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Also, almost forgot

http://www.fluoridedebate.com/index.html

.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

'Plaque is a figment of the liberal media and the dental industry to scare you into buying useless appliances and pastes. Now, I've read the arguments on both sides, and I haven't found any evidence yet to support the need to brush your teeth. Ever.'

- master shake

flywallyfly

"I got some tartar control toothpaste. I still got tartar, but that shit's under control. If the tartar gets outta line, I'm like, "come on, man. You know the deal." I got so much tartar, I don't have to dip my fish sticks in shit!...That's actually kinda gross."

--Mitch Hedberg (RIP)

flywallyfly

There are definitely some concerns about fluoride. I've read a few articles on it and some of the info is scary if true.

El_Kabong

i don't feel like rehashing it but some good info
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=235351

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Fluoride causes tooth decay...


"Water fluoridation was stopped in the following States: Federal Republic of Germany50 (introduced 1952, stopped 1971); Sweden (introduced 1952, stopped 1971); Netherlands51-53 (introduced 1953, stopped 1976); Czechoslovakia49 (introduced 1958, stopped 1988/90); German Democratic Republic49 (introduced 1959, stopped 1990 (Spremberg 1993)); Union of Soviet Socialist Republics49 (introduced 1960, stopped 1990); Finland49 (introduced 1959, stopped 1993); outside Europe: Japan49 (introduced 1952, stopped 1972).

In Europe more than 53 million people who had water fluoridation for many years are now free from it.

4. Dentists and WHO experts have predicted a very large caries increase ("a tide of caries") after termination of fluoridation.49 Analyses of the data, however, reveal a significant decrease in dental caries (caries decline) after suspension of water fluoridation in Japan,49,54 in the Netherlands,55 in Prague,49,56 in the German Democratic Republic,49 and elsewhere. Never has any real increase in dental caries been observed after water fluoridation was discontinued.

Furthermore, many fluoride tablet measures were stopped also. In Graz23 (Austria), for instance, the dental caries of children had increased during the fluoride tablet actions in schools since 1956 and decreased after the stop in 1973. "

http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-3/313-171.htm

RolandTD20Kdrummer

For anyone else still wondering

http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-3.htm

wolfbear

I was and am very happy that it was defeated here locally to add it to our water. This was a few years ago, but most of the dentists at that time were pushing for it passing. :(

Abookamongstthemany

I started using non-fluoride toothpaste a few months back and LOVE it! I was worried that it might not work as well and I'd start seeing problems...but I have been completely surprised at how squeaky clean my teeth feel all day long after brushing with this new stuff. They feel much more smooth and clean in comparison to when I used the fluoride brands.

I will say that the brand I'm currently using is slighty bitter...it has a nice mint flavor but no artificial sweetners like the major brands (which I see as a plus but it does take some getting used to)

http://www.natures-gate.com/shop/showitem.asp?ProductId=46100155&menuId=153&withLinks=1

kenny olav

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I started using non-fluoride toothpaste a few months back and LOVE it! I was worried that it might not work as well and I'd start seeing problems...but I have been completely surprised at how squeaky clean my teeth feel all day long after brushing with this new stuff. They feel much more smooth and clean in comparison to when I used the fluoride brands.

I will say that the brand I'm currently using is slighty bitter...it has a nice mint flavor but no artificial sweetners like the major brands (which I see as a plus but it does take some getting used to)

http://www.natures-gate.com/shop/showitem.asp?ProductId=46100155&menuId=153&withLinks=1

cool. i'm gonna look for that.

Abookamongstthemany

Kenny Olav wrote:

cool. i'm gonna look for that.

You really should! You guys will like it, I'm sure. I get mine at Whole Foods but have seen it at smaller all natural-type markets like Garner's around here.

ClimberInOz

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Fluoride causes tooth decay...


"Water fluoridation was stopped in the following States: Federal Republic of Germany50 (introduced 1952, stopped 1971); Sweden (introduced 1952, stopped 1971); Netherlands51-53 (introduced 1953, stopped 1976); Czechoslovakia49 (introduced 1958, stopped 1988/90); German Democratic Republic49 (introduced 1959, stopped 1990 (Spremberg 1993)); Union of Soviet Socialist Republics49 (introduced 1960, stopped 1990); Finland49 (introduced 1959, stopped 1993); outside Europe: Japan49 (introduced 1952, stopped 1972).

In Europe more than 53 million people who had water fluoridation for many years are now free from it.

4. Dentists and WHO experts have predicted a very large caries increase ("a tide of caries") after termination of fluoridation.49 Analyses of the data, however, reveal a significant decrease in dental caries (caries decline) after suspension of water fluoridation in Japan,49,54 in the Netherlands,55 in Prague,49,56 in the German Democratic Republic,49 and elsewhere. Never has any real increase in dental caries been observed after water fluoridation was discontinued.

Furthermore, many fluoride tablet measures were stopped also. In Graz23 (Austria), for instance, the dental caries of children had increased during the fluoride tablet actions in schools since 1956 and decreased after the stop in 1973. "

http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-3/313-171.htm

The study that analysed the decline of dental problems was conducted in 1997. To suggest that a decline in dental problems in the 20 or 30 years post the cessation of water flouridation is due to the absence of flouride is not considering the many other factors that may have caused the decline.

A better study in my opinion is one that compares similar populations exposed to differing levels of flouride. This is from Australia, and the huge sample sizes give the study significant statistical validity:

Tooth decay is the single most common chronic
childhood disease. Queensland children have
significantly higher rates of tooth decay than the
national average.In 2001, six year olds in
Queensland had a tooth decay rate that was 10 per
cent higher (2500 extra six year olds) than nationally:
that is 52 per cent of Queensland six year olds with
tooth decay compared with 47.3 per cent nationally.
For 12-year-olds, the Queensland rate was 7 per cent
higher than nationally (1,600 extra 12 year olds), that
is 43.1 per cent compared with 40.3 per cent. In 2001,
50.1 per cent of Queensland children have tooth decay
in baby teeth, compared with 45.9 per cent nationally
(Figure 48b). About one quarter (24.7 per cent) of
Queensland children have tooth decay in permanent
teeth, compared with 22.8 per cent nationally. Children
in Townsville (fluoridated water) aged five to twelve
years have 45 per cent less tooth decay than children
living in Brisbane with a non fluoridated supply.

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/cho_report/documents/32048_3.2b.pdf

The weight of scientific evidence is vastly supporting the hypothesis that flouride prevents tooth decay.

Likewise, the weight of scientific evidence supporting the hypotheis that curent flouridation levels are not dangerous is very strong, although not as overwhelming as in the above case.

Just because something is a poison at one level of exposure does not make it a poison at level of exposure. But I think we can agree that it is certainly worthy of continued research.

catefrances

my water is flouridated.

decides2dream

hmmm...and my dental hygenist just told me this past saturday that i really should start using ACT, which is a fluoride rinse, to further aide in decay protection...

i haven't had a cavity in 10 years i believe...and now i have 3. :(

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

dentists can be idiots. i had one dentist for years that said my teeth were fine, then i got a new one that said my teeth were full of pits and i needed my wisdom teeth taken out. i dont know who to believe. but my teeth arent bothering me right now.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

ClimberInOz wrote:

The study that analysed the decline of dental problems was conducted in 1997. To suggest that a decline in dental problems in the 20 or 30 years post the cessation of water flouridation is due to the absence of flouride is not considering the many other factors that may have caused the decline.

A better study in my opinion is one that compares similar populations exposed to differing levels of flouride. This is from Australia, and the huge sample sizes give the study significant statistical validity:

Tooth decay is the single most common chronic
childhood disease. Queensland children have
significantly higher rates of tooth decay than the
national average.In 2001, six year olds in
Queensland had a tooth decay rate that was 10 per
cent higher (2500 extra six year olds) than nationally:
that is 52 per cent of Queensland six year olds with
tooth decay compared with 47.3 per cent nationally.
For 12-year-olds, the Queensland rate was 7 per cent
higher than nationally (1,600 extra 12 year olds), that
is 43.1 per cent compared with 40.3 per cent. In 2001,
50.1 per cent of Queensland children have tooth decay
in baby teeth, compared with 45.9 per cent nationally
(Figure 48b). About one quarter (24.7 per cent) of
Queensland children have tooth decay in permanent
teeth, compared with 22.8 per cent nationally. Children
in Townsville (fluoridated water) aged five to twelve
years have 45 per cent less tooth decay than children
living in Brisbane with a non fluoridated supply.

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/cho_report/documents/32048_3.2b.pdf

The weight of scientific evidence is vastly supporting the hypothesis that flouride prevents tooth decay.

Likewise, the weight of scientific evidence supporting the hypotheis that curent flouridation levels are not dangerous is very strong, although not as overwhelming as in the above case.

Just because something is a poison at one level of exposure does not make it a poison at level of exposure. But I think we can agree that it is certainly worthy of continued research.

I was reading the effects are cumulative, which is why it's still banned in large parts Europe (I may be wrong but I think this is still the case) Europe has also banned aspartame...aspartame lives in so many things in the west still as well.

makes ya wonder.

searchlightsoul

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Anyone still think fluoride is a good thing to have in their drinking water?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=fluoride+causes+tooth+decay&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


"Fluoride is actually a poison! The American Dental Association has been through tons of lawsuits and has now admitted that fluoride not only rots teeth from the inside but that it also causes gum disease as well. Fluoride has major negative effects on humans such as increase risk for bone cancer (especially in boys), puts holes in brain tissue, damages liver and kidneys, calcifies arteries and increases risk for hypothyroid conditions.

Fluoride’s main natural element is fluorine, which is a toxic gas that is the most chemically active non-metallic element. When fluorine is combined with hydrogen it makes hydrofluoric acid, a chemical used to dissolve glass. The Nazis diluted fluoride compounds three parts per million in drinking water to calm prisoners. Fluoride is also used to kill rats. "

In low doses ( 4 ppm) it isn't a poison so your just making a lot of noise over nothing-scare mongering I believe is the term.

Fluorine is a chemical CONSTITUENT, used in an industrial reagent (HF) and as a rat poison, but these are chemically distinct from its use in water where it is a totally different compound, sodium hexafluorosilicate or hexafluorosilicic acid.

It like saying 'hydrogen is an explosive gas, so we shouldn't drink water'. What is the value in muddying the water even further with misinformation?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

searchlightsoul wrote:

In low doses ( 4 ppm) it isn't a poison so your just making a lot of noise over nothing-scare mongering I believe is the term.

Fluorine is a chemical CONSTITUENT, used in an industrial reagent (HF) and as a rat poison, but these are chemically distinct from its use in water where it is a totally different compound, sodium hexafluorosilicate or hexafluorosilicic acid.

It like saying 'hydrogen is an explosive gas, so we shouldn't drink water'. What is the value in muddying the water even further with misinformation?

How is low doses of something toxic not toxic?

any why exactly is Europe not using it and doing just fine?

pls explain

thanks

searchlightsoul

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

How is low doses of something toxic not toxic?

any why exactly is Europe not using it and doing just fine?

pls explain

thanks

Semantics. It's toxic in higher doses. Just like lead, radiation (I'm sure you have radio?) you incorporate small amounts into your body all the time, but it is not harmful biologically at low levels.

Well, how come so many countries still use it? I live in Australia BTW and its a non-issue. Not because of ignorance but because most people don't want to spend their lives worrying about this shit, and then get hit by a truck.

Given that you seem so intent on critical thinking, how about you actually critique the data your using. I mean simply indicating a correlation between high fluoride and bone density in ONE case (or even a few) is inadequete because a study (unlike an experiment) isn't removing other variables. Maybe the fluride levels came from another source i.e diet, maybe reduced bone density or whatever was more strongly linked to poor diet and a low socio-economic environment.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

searchlightsoul wrote:

Semantics. It's toxic in higher doses. Just like lead, radiation (I'm sure you have radio?) you incorporate small amounts into your body all the time, but it is not harmful biologically at low levels.

Well, how come so many countries still use it? I live in Australia BTW and its a non-issue. Not because of ignorance but because most people don't want to spend their lives worrying about this shit, and then get hit by a truck.

Given that you seem so intent on critical thinking, how about you actually critique the data your using. I mean simply indicating a correlation between high fluoride and bone density in ONE case (or even a few) is inadequete because a study (unlike an experiment) isn't removing other variables. Maybe the fluride levels came from another source i.e diet, maybe reduced bone density or whatever was more strongly linked to poor diet and a low socio-economic environment.

I don't think it's intelligent to have something still classified as toxic for a local situation (teeth) to run systemic throughout your entire body.

I'm with Europe. I can just remember to brush my teeth.