I must say, I'm a little shocked to be pegged as a blind supporter after I spent time explaining why I feel it's wrong to be the "all options are on the table" guy - especially considering how limited our options are.
All candidates (even Kucinich) have the potential to take us into another war - as the path to any future war will not necessarily be the same path that lead us into past ones.
At least with Kucinich, you know clearly from what he says that war would be the opposite of everything he has talked about. I have a hard time understanding not wanting to go into another war but supporting a guy who very well might choose that path. He has repeatedly focused on Iran during his campaign as the bad guy. I don't care for that mentality because it put us against them (and we don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to producing nukes). So when I see people who don't want war continuing to support a guy who doesn't seem like he'd mind it too much...it makes me wonder why. And how long would you continue to support him in that direction?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
At least with Kucinich, you know clearly from what he says that war would be the opposite of everything he has talked about. I have a hard time understanding not wanting to go into another war but supporting a guy who very well might choose that path. He has repeatedly focused on Iran during his campaign as the bad guy. I don't care for that mentality because it put us against them (and we don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to producing nukes). So when I see people who don't want war continuing to support a guy who doesn't seem like he'd mind it too much...it makes me wonder why. And how long would you continue to support him in that direction?
Pre-emptive war would be against what Kucinich has talked about (as far as I understand it) - not simply war. And besides, he's changed his position about things before.
Though I could be wrong, I honestly don't think Obama is a pre-emptive war kinda guy. Iran has a sizable population of what we could consider "liberal" citizens (by Iranian standards). These are the people that need to bring down their ruling class. If we do it for them (a la Iraq), then it's very likely they'll congeal with the hardliners against us, and everyone loses except the hardliners (on both sides). I think Obama has taken a reasonable step in calling for U.S. businesses to stop any dealings that'll result in profits for the Iranian ruling class. Weaken them, and maybe they'll fall, and maybe the more liberal aspects of their culture will rise to the surface. As for "all options are on the table," it's a stupid remark that leaves him open to attacks from the left, who hate that kind of talk, and the right, who don't believe it if it comes out of the mouth of a liberal. And Ahmadinejad simply laughs, because he knows that we're stuck right now anyway (all he has to do is look out his window to see it). In the end, it's simply a platitude - a given. Of course all options are on the table - they'll be on the table no matter who wins. The difference is, what would it take for which candidate to use those options? I don't think either of these two are all that trigger happy.
Pre-emptive war would be against what Kucinich has talked about (as far as I understand it) - not simply war. And besides, he's changed his position about things before.
Though I could be wrong, I honestly don't think Obama is a pre-emptive war kinda guy. Iran has a sizable population of what we could consider "liberal" citizens (by Iranian standards). These are the people that need to bring down their ruling class. If we do it for them (a la Iraq), then it's very likely they'll congeal with the hardliners against us, and everyone loses except the hardliners (on both sides). I think Obama has taken a reasonable step in calling for U.S. businesses to stop any dealings that'll result in profits for the Iranian ruling class. Weaken them, and maybe they'll fall, and maybe the more liberal aspects of their culture will rise to the surface. As for "all options are on the table," it's a stupid remark that leaves him open to attacks from the left, who hate that kind of talk, and the right, who don't believe it if it comes out of the mouth of a liberal. And Ahmadinejad simply laughs, because he knows that we're stuck right now anyway (all he has to do is look out his window to see it). In the end, it's simply a platitude - a given. Of course all options are on the table - they'll be on the table no matter who wins. The difference is, what would it take for which candidate to use those options? I don't think either of these two are all that trigger happy.
Oh, sorry about that. Dennis is addressing Bill Maher about his stance on war.
I saw that episode, but it was late on a Friday and I was really drunk.
What I remember of it I thought sounded pretty good, though it could have been my condition and the resulting voices in my head being applied to the pretty moving pictures on the screen. As I've told you before, I don't dislike the guy (though I'm not on a first name basis as you are ), and I'd vote for him were he to get the nod.
in fact, I think he'd be the perfect V.P. for Obama..... <<<ducks>>>
I saw that episode, but it was late on a Friday and I was really drunk.
What I remember of it I thought sounded pretty good, though it could have been my condition and the resulting voices in my head being applied to the pretty moving pictures on the screen. As I've told you before, I don't dislike the guy (though I'm not on a first name basis as you are ), and I'd vote for him were he to get the nod.
in fact, I think he'd be the perfect V.P. for Obama..... <<<ducks>>>
VP...pffft
I know you don't dislike Dennis (:D) but I am having a hard time really finding anything to like about Obama. He just seems like the old weaselly politician to me. And when I see him attempting to further divide us and Iran by creating more tension in the place of diplomacy, I just wanna know where his supporters stand.
If you get the chance, watch that clip in a more sober mode. It's well worth it.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I know you don't dislike Dennis (:D) but I am having a hard time really finding anything to like about Obama.
If you look at the On The Issues site, Kucinich and Obama's dots are on the exact same point on the graph. I know, you can't break things down that generally; but in the details they're not all that far apart either. Kucinich is a little more anti-war, while Obama is a little more pro-choice. On other social issues, I think both are pretty much in line.
He just seems like the old weaselly politician to me. And when I see him attempting to further divide us and Iran by creating more tension in the place of diplomacy, I just wanna know where his supporters stand.
Iran's leaders simply don't like us, so there's going to be tension either way. I don't see Obama attempting to divide us further - though I do see, how shall we say, kinks in what was supposed to be his gleaming armor of lucidity.
If you look at the On The Issues site, Kucinich and Obama's dots are on the exact same point on the graph. I know, you can't break things down that generally; but in the details they're not all that far apart either. Kucinich is a little more anti-war, while Obama is a little more pro-choice. On other social issues, I think both are pretty much in line.
Yeah, I've checked out On The Issues and I think I started about a thread about that site actually. They do appear, on paper, to be much the same. That's why I have to take other things into account.
Iran's leaders simply don't like us, so there's going to be tension either way. I don't see Obama attempting to divide us further - though I do see, how shall we say, kinks in what was supposed to be his gleaming armor of lucidity.
What do you think the reasons are behind the problems Iran has with us and vice versa and what do you think is the appropriate approach at handling it?
Yeah, I've checked out On The Issues and I think I started about a thread about that site actually. They do appear, on paper, to be much the same. That's why I have to take other things into account.
For a lot of things, though, I'm a very "on paper" kind of guy. Take George Bush (please - sorry_). His affable personality, his jovial approach to things both mundane and serious, his tough-guy go-it-alone attitude wins people over - people who, where he simply on paper, wouldn't be the least bit interested. So, when you take the other things into account, as you should, don't completely forget the paper.
What do you think the reasons are behind the problems Iran has with us and vice versa and what do you think is the appropriate approach at handling it?
Oh, jeeze. That would take a book written by someone far more qualified than me to answer. We've had a bad recent history with these guys - supporting people they hate, hating people they support, lusting after their resources. Then, once their fundamentalists took charge in the 70s, it's been pretty down hill from there - and our former support of Saddam Hussein didn't help either. It's a sorted affair where neither side is really on the up and up. There's no simple solution - but some moderation (from both sides) would likely go a long way.
Just because I realize that Iran's Imams don't like me (or you) doesn't mean I want to bomb the country. Jesus Christ, you can say "I know it's a lot to ask people to become educated in politics," but can you say it in a mirror.
Dude...if you think what you just said to me...you're fucking clueless.. flat out...
get a grip... learn something
Iran seems to want to be attacked...yeah right man.. that a sweet nugget you must of hauled out of your a...
It's not that they don;t like us....they don't trust us.... and with damn good reason. If you establish a trust with a Muslim they'll be the best friend you've ever had...
your don't hear about that little reality on CNN...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I can already see the same bullshit horse and pony show starting all over again...fuck Obama...
.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
He talks alot of sense, so i guess he has no chance of winning?
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
He talks alot of sense, so i guess he has no chance of winning?
With thinking like that..:p
There's going to be a time for serious change in America. It can come more sooner than later...but that's up to all of us. If people don't believe it can happen, it never will.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Dude...if you think what you just said to me...you're fucking clueless.. flat out...
get a grip... learn something
Iran seems to want to be attacked...yeah right man.. that a sweet nugget you must of hauled out of your a...
It's not that they don;t like us....they don't trust us.... and with damn good reason. If you establish a trust with a Muslim they'll be the best friend you've ever had...
your don't hear about that little reality on CNN...
Just because there is a large and growing socially liberalized population in Iran, and just because you call me clueless, doesn't change the fact that Iran's leadership is filled with religious conservatives that would love to see us bogged down in further conflicts in the Middle East and embarrased on the world stage for over-extending ourselves.
"That little reality on CNN"? What, your "establish trust with a Muslim" line? So all Muslims are the same, then - like Morgan Freeman's character from Robin Hood?
What's really fucked up is that I actually agree with some of the broader issues you bring up, like trust. But that's just it - you're only talking in broad terms here. It's a trait you share with many neo-conservatives; though you'd be better served to leave it to them.
If you look at the On The Issues site, Kucinich and Obama's dots are on the exact same point on the graph. I know, you can't break things down that generally; but in the details they're not all that far apart either. Kucinich is a little more anti-war, while Obama is a little more pro-choice. On other social issues, I think both are pretty much in line.
Iran's leaders simply don't like us, so there's going to be tension either way. I don't see Obama attempting to divide us further - though I do see, how shall we say, kinks in what was supposed to be his gleaming armor of lucidity.
I will.
a little more anti-war??? lol according to obama supporters only an idiot thought obama was anti-war
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
a little more anti-war??? lol according to obama supporters only an idiot thought obama was anti-war
Lol yourself. Read through this old thread, and you'll see that I wrote about being upset with Obama for leaving all options on the table in regards to Iran - i.e. "man, I wish he was more anti-war."
whoa...I must have been either drunk or in a bit of a mood in this thread originally. *cringes*
I have a hard time seeing progressive as carrying on with the same torch that Bush lit and has generously poured gas on over the years.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
At least with Kucinich, you know clearly from what he says that war would be the opposite of everything he has talked about. I have a hard time understanding not wanting to go into another war but supporting a guy who very well might choose that path. He has repeatedly focused on Iran during his campaign as the bad guy. I don't care for that mentality because it put us against them (and we don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to producing nukes). So when I see people who don't want war continuing to support a guy who doesn't seem like he'd mind it too much...it makes me wonder why. And how long would you continue to support him in that direction?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Though I could be wrong, I honestly don't think Obama is a pre-emptive war kinda guy. Iran has a sizable population of what we could consider "liberal" citizens (by Iranian standards). These are the people that need to bring down their ruling class. If we do it for them (a la Iraq), then it's very likely they'll congeal with the hardliners against us, and everyone loses except the hardliners (on both sides). I think Obama has taken a reasonable step in calling for U.S. businesses to stop any dealings that'll result in profits for the Iranian ruling class. Weaken them, and maybe they'll fall, and maybe the more liberal aspects of their culture will rise to the surface. As for "all options are on the table," it's a stupid remark that leaves him open to attacks from the left, who hate that kind of talk, and the right, who don't believe it if it comes out of the mouth of a liberal. And Ahmadinejad simply laughs, because he knows that we're stuck right now anyway (all he has to do is look out his window to see it). In the end, it's simply a platitude - a given. Of course all options are on the table - they'll be on the table no matter who wins. The difference is, what would it take for which candidate to use those options? I don't think either of these two are all that trigger happy.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wQc2pd0UaoA
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Oh, sorry about that. Dennis is addressing Bill Maher about his stance on war. He says only as self defense would he consider it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
What I remember of it I thought sounded pretty good, though it could have been my condition and the resulting voices in my head being applied to the pretty moving pictures on the screen. As I've told you before, I don't dislike the guy (though I'm not on a first name basis as you are
VP...pffft
I know you don't dislike Dennis (:D) but I am having a hard time really finding anything to like about Obama. He just seems like the old weaselly politician to me. And when I see him attempting to further divide us and Iran by creating more tension in the place of diplomacy, I just wanna know where his supporters stand.
If you get the chance, watch that clip in a more sober mode. It's well worth it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Iran's leaders simply don't like us, so there's going to be tension either way. I don't see Obama attempting to divide us further - though I do see, how shall we say, kinks in what was supposed to be his gleaming armor of lucidity.
I will.
Yeah, I've checked out On The Issues and I think I started about a thread about that site actually. They do appear, on paper, to be much the same. That's why I have to take other things into account.
What do you think the reasons are behind the problems Iran has with us and vice versa and what do you think is the appropriate approach at handling it?
Cool beans
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=234508&highlight=project+vote+smart
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Oh, jeeze. That would take a book written by someone far more qualified than me to answer. We've had a bad recent history with these guys - supporting people they hate, hating people they support, lusting after their resources. Then, once their fundamentalists took charge in the 70s, it's been pretty down hill from there - and our former support of Saddam Hussein didn't help either. It's a sorted affair where neither side is really on the up and up. There's no simple solution - but some moderation (from both sides) would likely go a long way.
I'll try. Weekends coming up, though. Might not remember who you are.
two words: Mike Gravel
Dude...if you think what you just said to me...you're fucking clueless.. flat out...
get a grip... learn something
Iran seems to want to be attacked...yeah right man.. that a sweet nugget you must of hauled out of your a...
It's not that they don;t like us....they don't trust us.... and with damn good reason. If you establish a trust with a Muslim they'll be the best friend you've ever had...
your don't hear about that little reality on CNN...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I can already see the same bullshit horse and pony show starting all over again...fuck Obama...
.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
He talks alot of sense, so i guess he has no chance of winning?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
With thinking like that..:p
There's going to be a time for serious change in America. It can come more sooner than later...but that's up to all of us. If people don't believe it can happen, it never will.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"That little reality on CNN"? What, your "establish trust with a Muslim" line? So all Muslims are the same, then - like Morgan Freeman's character from Robin Hood?
What's really fucked up is that I actually agree with some of the broader issues you bring up, like trust. But that's just it - you're only talking in broad terms here. It's a trait you share with many neo-conservatives; though you'd be better served to leave it to them.
a little more anti-war??? lol according to obama supporters only an idiot thought obama was anti-war
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
The "idiot" insult is quite like the boomerang.
I have a hard time seeing progressive as carrying on with the same torch that Bush lit and has generously poured gas on over the years.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")