This Just In: Pat Tillman Revisited

Bu2

A very strange AP news brief just hit the internet:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070726/ap_on_re_us/tillman_friendly_fire

gue_barium

Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

It appeared the rounds that entered his forhead were fired from just 10 yards away.

PaperPlates

"Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."


Tillman was one bad ass motherfucker.

DriftingByTheStorm

my friend called me two days ago to ask me to look in to this.

he said he heard that Tillman had become a VOCAL CELEBRITY CRITIC OF THE WAR, and that there was some new evidence\suspicion that his death was a STAGED friendly fire incident, that was really more of a MURDER\TAKING OUT\SILENCING of a vocal war critic.

WTF.

g under p

A stand up soldier to the very end he made the ULTIMATE sacrifice. Give a listen as James Hetfield rips into these powerful lyrics @ Pat Tillman...Disposable Hero. I salute you Sir....

"Fighting wars for peace is like fucking for virginity".

Just aint gonna happen in this lifetime!

Disposable Heroes

(Hetfield / Ulrich / Hammett)

Bodies fill the fields I see, hungry heroes end
No one to play soldier now, no one to pretend
running blind through killing fields, bred to kill them all
Victim of what said should be
a servant `til I fall

Soldier boy, made of clay
now an empty shell
twenty one, only son
but he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
just do as we say
finished here, Greeting Death
he's yours to take away

Back to the front
you will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
you will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
you coward
you servant
you blindman

Barking of machinegun fire, does nothing to me now
sounding of the clock that ticks, get used to it somehow
More a man, more stripes you bare, glory seeker trends
bodies fill the fields I see
the slaughter never ends

Soldier boy, made of clay
now an empty shell
twenty one, only son
but he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
just do as we say
finished here, Greeting Death
he's yours to take away

Back to the front
you will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
you will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
you coward
you servant
you blindman

Why, Am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, Hell is here

I was born for dying

Life planned out before my birth, nothing could I say
had no chance to see myself, molded day by day
Looking back I realize, nothing have I done
left to die with only friend
Alone I clench my gun

Soldier boy, made of clay
now an empty shell
twenty one, only son
but he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
just do as we say
finished here, Greeting Death
he's yours to take away

Back to the front
you will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
you will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
you coward
you servant
you blindman

Back to the front.




Peace Everbody
Earle

beachdweller

if Tillman was shot from that close, and all three bullet's are from one weapon, then I'd say the odds are very good this was murder, not an accident, but it's doesn't mean it absolutely was murder. I honestly think we'll never know the truth. This get's lots of coverage in San Jose where I live, and Tillman is from.

gabers

I really really really hope this was just a fucked up accident. Because if it wasn't then this is a bigger tragedy than I ever imagined.

gimmesometruth27

i hope this was not deliberate. it seems like there are 10 sides and accounts of this story. first he was killed by the enemy, then it was accidental friendly fire, now it might have been deliberate friendly fire. how tragic. i saw on the news tonight that the officer who eulogized him at his funeral knew the real circumstances of his death, but still portrayed him as a hero that died in a firefight with the enemy. at that time it was not public knowledge that he was killed by his own troops.

robbie

how can you possibly believe ANY account the government comes up with now? once they have lied about the incident so many times, who will believe them when they say this was not a murder? if this guy was killed for speaking out against the war, and then used in death as a tool to promote war, even the republicans might have to admit that just about crosses the line... but they could come out with video footage of dick cheney personally shooting him point blank and nobody would give a shit or think to do anything about it. all i know is that when you are lied to that many times they are covering something up, so how am i not to assume the very worse?

El_Kabong

robbie wrote:

how can you possibly believe ANY account the government comes up with now? once they have lied about the incident so many times, who will believe them when they say this was not a murder? if this guy was killed for speaking out against the war, and then used in death as a tool to promote war, even the republicans might have to admit that just about crosses the line... but they could come out with video footage of dick cheney personally shooting him point blank and nobody would give a shit or think to do anything about it. all i know is that when you are lied to that many times they are covering something up, so how am i not to assume the very worse?

i wonder if he was upset about this?

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=250573

Cosmo

Bu2 wrote:

A very strange AP news brief just hit the internet:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070726/ap_on_re_us/tillman_friendly_fire

...
I find it difficult to believe that Army Rangers would act in this manner... killing on of their own.
The HMMWVs and the tow vehicle pulling the disabled HMMWV got split up passing through the canyon and lost communication with each other. Tillman and two other were on the high ground trying to locate figures that were reportedly seen in the area. The second HMMWV saw them on the hillside and opened fire. The time of day, the terrain, location and slow moving vehicles all contributed to the fog of war. People make mistakes... in a battle zone... people die.
I have a problem with the lies... the whole "Hero/Sgt. Striker" bullshit the Army tried to pull on us regarding his death. To me, that was a great dis-service and dishonor to Tillman. Tell us the goddamn truth... you lying pieces of shit.

Chris1401

Cosmo wrote:

...
I find it difficult to believe that Army Rangers would act in this manner... killing on of their own.

You do, really?

They spend many hours training to kill, in the end it is my belief that if they can pull a trigger and kill another human in a moment of war, they can do it in other situations. Killing someone may not be regarded as truly out of the question during a disagreement as it may seem to us.

I understand they should have ethical issues with killing fellow soldiers, but in the end they are trained killers.

I hear quite a bit of policemen, soldiers, etc who kill their wives, family members, etc.

I am not saying it an exclusive trait of those in the military (cause it's a small percentage), but these revelations don't surprise me if they are true.

even flow?

Chris1401 wrote:

You do, really?

They spend many hours training to kill, in the end it is my belief that if they can pull a trigger and kill another human in a moment of war, they can do it in other situations. Killing someone may not be regarded as truly out of the question during a disagreement as it may seem to us.

I understand they should have ethical issues with killing fellow soldiers, but in the end they are trained killers.

I hear quite a bit of policemen, soldiers, etc who kill their wives, family members, etc.

I am not saying it an exclusive trait of those in the military (cause it's a small percentage), but these revelations don't surprise me if they are true.

Agreed. How about those boys who upon their return a couple of years ago decided that one of their friends had said something nasty to a stripper and knifed him up and set the body on fire. Fine friends from the war in Iraq.

Cosmo

Chris1401 wrote:

You do, really?

They spend many hours training to kill, in the end it is my belief that if they can pull a trigger and kill another human in a moment of war, they can do it in other situations. Killing someone may not be regarded as truly out of the question during a disagreement as it may seem to us.

I understand they should have ethical issues with killing fellow soldiers, but in the end they are trained killers.

I hear quite a bit of policemen, soldiers, etc who kill their wives, family members, etc.

I am not saying it an exclusive trait of those in the military (cause it's a small percentage), but these revelations don't surprise me if they are true.

...
Probably comes from knowing a lot of former and current military people. Many whom served in WWII through the Iraq Wars. They see their fellow soldiers as brothers... especially if they had actual gunfights with enemy combatants.
And Rangers... especially Rangers.
...
I'm not saying that there are psychos in their midst... but, to get an entire unit to go along with that... I find it difficult to believe.
And i'll admit... I DON'T want to believe it.
I WANT to believe it was a mistake that was compounded by Tillman's notoriety which lead them to make more mistakes... such as burning Tillman's body armor and trying to blame it on Taliban fighters, instead of their own weapons.

g under p

A comment on the Tillman situation, what do you think about this? It's called Did The Bush Administration Order Tillman Murdered To Silence Him check it there. What do you think about this just another Disposable Hero?

Peace
Earle

gabers

Cosmo wrote:

...
Probably comes from knowing a lot of former and current military people. Many whom served in WWII through the Iraq Wars. They see their fellow soldiers as brothers... especially if they had actual gunfights with enemy combatants.
And Rangers... especially Rangers.
...
I'm not saying that there are psychos in their midst... but, to get an entire unit to go along with that... I find it difficult to believe.
And i'll admit... I DON'T want to believe it.
I WANT to believe it was a mistake that was compounded by Tillman's notoriety which lead them to make more mistakes... such as burning Tillman's body armor and trying to blame it on Taliban fighters, instead of their own weapons.

Was the entire unit involved? I don't see why. It was just a handful of Rangers, correct?

A vast majority of soldiers would never dream of killing one of their unit members, their "brothers" as you put it. But when disputes happen in the heat of battle, shit can go really wrong. I'm sure you heard of the "frag" incidents in Vietnam.

I too, find an organized hit hard to believe, but not totally out of the range of possibility. I think the more likely cause was accident or an act of rage by one soldier rather than a directive from the White House. As much as I despise Cheney and Bush that's very difficult to believe. Whatever the cause the cover up was despicable though. Heads should roll.

Cosmo

gabers wrote:

Was the entire unit involved? I don't see why. It was just a handful of Rangers, correct?

A vast majority of soldiers would never dream of killing one of their unit members, their "brothers" as you put it. But when disputes happen in the heat of battle, shit can go really wrong. I'm sure you heard of the "frag" incidents in Vietnam.

I too, find an organized hit hard to believe, but not totally out of the range of possibility. I think the more likely cause was accident or an act of rage by one soldier rather than a directive from the White House. As much as I despise Cheney and Bush that's very difficult to believe. Whatever the cause the cover up was despicable though. Heads should roll.

...
The Unit that was on patrol that afternoon. There were 3 HMMWVs dispatched... so, what... a minimum of 4 per vehicle. Split to 6 per vehicle after the one broke down. Tillman, another soldier and their Afghani guide/interpreter (soldier, not civilian) went up the adjacent hill to get between the suspected persons position and the low angled Sun... when the second HMMWV came around and spotted them. The main gun (turret mounted .50 cal) never fired because the turret gunner had the weapon pointed towards the sunlit hillsides, 180 degrees away from Tillman's position. By the time he had swung the turret around, he saw the smoke tossed by Tillman's group and knew there were Rangers in the area.
And you have to remember... these guys are Army Rangers... not Army Regulars or National Guardsmen... Rangers.
I cannot believe that all of that was staged to occur... the breakdown of the vehicle... the wrong turn by the second HMMWV. It was a combination of a series of mistakes (and poor decisions to cover their mistakes) and bad luck that resulted in deaths.
...
And I definately believe that the Bush Administration is too inept to execute such a mission. They are EXCELLENT at lying and spinning the story to make them look better... but, planning and executing (and keeping their big yappers shut about it)... not so much.

Chris1401

Cosmo wrote:

And I definitely believe that the Bush Administration is too inept to execute such a mission. They are EXCELLENT at lying and spinning the story to make them look better... but, planning and executing (and keeping their big yappers shut about it)... not so much.

I am not disagreeing with your previous points, but if the stars aligned and some psycho had an opportunity (because of the wrong turn, smoke, etc) to take out Tillman (cause he didn't like him) or an officer told him to do it, I wouldn't be surprised because of the background soldiers have, as in, going to work includes killing. Job function=kill.

However, don't underestimate the Bush Administration, they are the ones who successfully sold this war on terrorism to us via the media, etc. They may seem retarded, but they aren't, unfortunately. I mean, for all I know we are still in Iraq cause of some big contract one of Bush's cronies is banking off of.

gue_barium

gabers wrote:

Was the entire unit involved? I don't see why. It was just a handful of Rangers, correct?

A vast majority of soldiers would never dream of killing one of their unit members, their "brothers" as you put it. But when disputes happen in the heat of battle, shit can go really wrong. I'm sure you heard of the "frag" incidents in Vietnam.

I too, find an organized hit hard to believe, but not totally out of the range of possibility. I think the more likely cause was accident or an act of rage by one soldier rather than a directive from the White House. As much as I despise Cheney and Bush that's very difficult to believe. Whatever the cause the cover up was despicable though. Heads should roll.

It was a platoon. Uncharacteristically split apart on this day.

As for "dissent" among the ranks, in my marine corps experience, it was made clear that "accidents" could happen. If you know what I mean.

g under p

g under p wrote:

A comment on the Tillman situation, what do you think about this? It's called Did The Bush Administration Order Tillman Murdered To Silence Him check it there. What do you think about this just another Disposable Hero?

In whatever this really went down I truly feel very sad for his family. I pray for them that they will find some peace and solace somewhere.

The probe is "a sham," the New York DailyNews reports Mary Tillman, Pat Tillman's mother said.

The Daily News article reported,
Pat Tillman's family yesterday ripped the Army's latest investigation of the pro football star's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan as a "sham" meant to protect higherups.

"It's so humiliating and disrespectful," said Mary Tillman, mother of the Arizona Cardinals defensive back who joined the Army and became a Ranger after 9/11.

"It's one more example of the Army investigating itself," she said. "It was all done to glorify this war. It's a sham. Pat deserves the truth."

Army Secretary Pete Geren is expected to recommend next week against criminal action but urge that four generals and three other officers be reprimanded for "critical errors" that misled the family and the nation into thinking Tillman was killed in combat in April 2004.

The officers also allowed the approval of Tillman's Silver Star award, which said he died in a charge against the enemy when he was actually killed by machine-gun fire from his own platoon.

and also reported,

Geren is also expected to recommend that retired Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, former head of Army special operations, be demoted one rank to major general. The action would cut Kensinger's monthly pension from about $8,800 to $7,900.

Five weeks after Tillman's death, when Kensinger already knew about the friendly-fire reports, he joined the family at a nationally televised memorial service but did not dispute the Silver Star citation.

Mary Tillman said Kensinger "was just the fall guy" for others in the chain of command. She suggested that then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld also knew that her son had fallen to friendly fire but kept the facts hidden so his death could be used as propaganda for the war.

Peace
Earle

El_Kabong

Chris1401 wrote:

You do, really?

They spend many hours training to kill, in the end it is my belief that if they can pull a trigger and kill another human in a moment of war, they can do it in other situations. Killing someone may not be regarded as truly out of the question during a disagreement as it may seem to us.

I understand they should have ethical issues with killing fellow soldiers, but in the end they are trained killers.

I hear quite a bit of policemen, soldiers, etc who kill their wives, family members, etc.

I am not saying it an exclusive trait of those in the military (cause it's a small percentage), but these revelations don't surprise me if they are true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/26/national/main516500.shtml

El_Kabong

gabers wrote:

Was the entire unit involved? I don't see why. It was just a handful of Rangers, correct?

A vast majority of soldiers would never dream of killing one of their unit members, their "brothers" as you put it. But when disputes happen in the heat of battle, shit can go really wrong. I'm sure you heard of the "frag" incidents in Vietnam.

I too, find an organized hit hard to believe, but not totally out of the range of possibility. I think the more likely cause was accident or an act of rage by one soldier rather than a directive from the White House. As much as I despise Cheney and Bush that's very difficult to believe. Whatever the cause the cover up was despicable though. Heads should roll.

lots of.... accidents...remember that italian intelligence guy who was gunned down by US military after rescuing a kidnapped journalist?

El_Kabong

Chris1401 wrote:

I am not disagreeing with your previous points, but if the stars aligned and some psycho had an opportunity (because of the wrong turn, smoke, etc) to take out Tillman (cause he didn't like him) or an officer told him to do it, I wouldn't be surprised because of the background soldiers have, as in, going to work includes killing. Job function=kill.

However, don't underestimate the Bush Administration, they are the ones who successfully sold this war on terrorism to us via the media, etc. They may seem retarded, but they aren't, unfortunately. I mean, for all I know we are still in Iraq cause of some big contract one of Bush's cronies is banking off of.

that's the whole reason cheney and others have bush as their puppet, they can just say 'come on, this guy's close to retarded, he couldn;t do anything like that!'

gue_barium

Cosmo wrote:

...
The Unit that was on patrol that afternoon. There were 3 HMMWVs dispatched... so, what... a minimum of 4 per vehicle. Split to 6 per vehicle after the one broke down. Tillman, another soldier and their Afghani guide/interpreter (soldier, not civilian) went up the adjacent hill to get between the suspected persons position and the low angled Sun... when the second HMMWV came around and spotted them. The main gun (turret mounted .50 cal) never fired because the turret gunner had the weapon pointed towards the sunlit hillsides, 180 degrees away from Tillman's position. By the time he had swung the turret around, he saw the smoke tossed by Tillman's group and knew there were Rangers in the area.
And you have to remember... these guys are Army Rangers... not Army Regulars or National Guardsmen... Rangers.
I cannot believe that all of that was staged to occur... the breakdown of the vehicle... the wrong turn by the second HMMWV. It was a combination of a series of mistakes (and poor decisions to cover their mistakes) and bad luck that resulted in deaths.
...
And I definately believe that the Bush Administration is too inept to execute such a mission. They are EXCELLENT at lying and spinning the story to make them look better... but, planning and executing (and keeping their big yappers shut about it)... not so much.

First off, you're relying on the official version of events. It's bullshit. Secondly, this didn't have to be executed by the administration, but its obvious that Rumsfeld may have given a nod to the idea. He followed through with the official bullshit story.

gue_barium

El_Kabong wrote:

lots of.... accidents...remember that italian intelligence guy who was gunned down by US military after rescuing a kidnapped journalist?

Yeah. And I would guess there was some "patriotic" motivation to that senseless murder as well.

Dirtie_Frank

El_Kabong wrote:

lots of.... accidents...remember that italian intelligence guy who was gunned down by US military after rescuing a kidnapped journalist?

That was an accident. The Intelligence guy who was killed ran a checkpoint. If he slowed down he would have been alive if he took into consideration the warning shots he would be alive. Let's not call our soldiers murders for something they thought would have killed them. Why don't you try to stand guard and make the decicion this kid had to make.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Looks like they pulled this link...page not found...how old is this thread?

DriftingByTheStorm

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Looks like they pulled this link...page not found...how old is this thread?

Someone from Counterpunch wrote a very compelling piece which essentially explains that Tillman's death was not an orchestrated "hit", but rather more probably a murder commited spontaneously by ground level troops ...

read this:
Counterpunch Article on Tillman's "Murder" - Reposted at ... gasp ... Prison Planet ...

tell me what you think.
It seems pretty hard to conclude that his "murder" was ordered if he really was in a position (time and place) that seemed to be totally random, by chance, and those with him were also somewhat arbitrarily involved ...

?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Someone from Counterpunch wrote a very compelling piece which essentially explains that Tillman's death was not an orchestrated "hit", but rather more probably a murder commited spontaneously by ground level troops ...

read this:
Counterpunch Article on Tillman's "Murder" - Reposted at ... gasp ... Prison Planet ...

tell me what you think.
It seems pretty hard to conclude that his "murder" was ordered if he really was in a position (time and place) that seemed to be totally random, by chance, and those with him were also somewhat arbitrarily involved ...

?

He probably took on some friendly fire and when they realized who they had killed, they did some stupid/foolish things to cover up the fact, which made it look even more suspicious so people started drawing various conclusions about iit.

I remember seeing some video testimony from the family (brother), and it seemed to be a stretch of the imagination what was being said and implied.