The big three

Vedder316

I say we dont bail that bastards out. I will feel bad for their hard working blue collar workers not for the greed fuckers that run them. I love to see them now taking "hybrid" theory seriously. The decision to put dvds player and all those other useless gadgets in all their ritzy cars. Shit I knew it was over when they started charging $6000 for a monitor so we didn't have to expel the energy to turn our heads around to back up! They just had to make cars that parallel park for us instead of making cars more fuel friendly. Shit Gov isnt going to bail me out if my pocket book get low and i cant take my private plane to France every time i feel the need to get my balls powdered. Just a mindless rant ending a very long night of work. Take care everyone. Invest in horses.......we may need em.

chromiam

Problem is that there are about 5 working people who rely on 1 autoworker having a job..... the collapse of one of the Big 3 could spell a long and drawn out recession. Not that I believe they should be bailed out... let them declare bankruptcy, restructure and then give them some type of assitance tied to a solid business plan.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

chromiam wrote:

Problem is that there are about 5 working people who rely on 1 autoworker having a job..... the collapse of one of the Big 3 could spell a long and drawn out recession. Not that I believe they should be bailed out... let them declare bankruptcy, restructure and then give them some type of assitance tied to a solid business plan.

Exactly, they should file for bankruptcy just like anyone else would in a similar situation. We already have rules in place to assist businesses when they get into deep shit. We have to stop letting the rich scare us into thinking everything will go to hell if we don't do what they want.

saveuplife

Saturnal wrote:

Exactly, they should file for bankruptcy just like anyone else would in a similar situation. We already have rules in place to assist businesses when they get into deep shit. We have to stop letting the rich scare us into thinking everything will go to hell if we don't do what they want.

Yep. File bankruptcy first. Then renegotiate with the unions. The gov't should demand bankruptcy before they even talk to them.

They should not be telling the gov't "this is what we WILL do".... they should be telling them "this is what we've DONE". They haven't DONE squat because (moral hazard and the Dem win--union ties) makes them think the gov't is easy pickings.

Indifference

I was hoping for a thread about Larry, McHale and the Chief......

chromiam

Indifference wrote:

I was hoping for a thread about Larry, McHale and the Chief......

I'd just send in Andrew Toney to end that thread..

lalalalaaaaaaaa

Indifference wrote:

I was hoping for a thread about Larry, McHale and the Chief......

haha I met McHale when I was about 8 years old....I really thought he was a giant from another planet or something.

Pacomc79

Let them go bankrupt, end the Union contracts dragging them under and then rehire all the workers. NBD.

As it stands now laid off auto workers have it better than most of the rest of us.


This very issue is the very reason we have provisions for bankruptcy.


It's not the end of the world if they go bankrupt just like it wasn't with the airlines. Now. The UAW would suffer. But who really gives a shit about the UAW? They are the bulk of the problems with the industry to begin with.

The inmates currently are running the asylum not the recipie for a healthy company. Giving them a vast sum of money only prolongs a poorly run poorly structured non competing industry. They NEED to fail actually so they can get better.

Bob Nardelli is the stupid prick that got shit tons of money for being a failure at Home Depot.

Indifference

chromiam wrote:

I'd just send in Andrew Toney to end that thread..

HA except it would already be over as the Basketball Jesus would of already been done abusing the good doctor.

saveuplife

Pacomc79 wrote:

Let them go bankrupt, end the Union contracts dragging them under and then rehire all the workers. NBD.

As it stands now laid off auto workers have it better than most of the rest of us.


This very issue is the very reason we have provisions for bankruptcy.


It's not the end of the world if they go bankrupt just like it wasn't with the airlines. Now. The UAW would suffer. But who really gives a shit about the UAW? They are the bulk of the problems with the industry to begin with.

The inmates currently are running the asylum not the recipie for a healthy company. Giving them a vast sum of money only prolongs a poorly run poorly structured non competing industry. They NEED to fail actually so they can get better.

The same people who are pro-union are the same people who bitch about the U.S. government not helping the poor and the same people who are against free trade benefiting other countries because they can supply labor for cheaper. Those countries (who are REALLY poor) benefit. We benefit with cheaper products as consumers. You are dead-on right.... the problems are the union contracts.

IMHO, the whole "they're stealing are jobs" crap from a pro-union person is extremely ironic. The unions are the reasons they are stealing your job.... you cost too much for what you are doing.

Pacomc79

saveuplife wrote:

The same people who are pro-union are the same people who bitch about the U.S. government not helping the poor and the same people who are against free trade benefiting other countries because they can supply labor for cheaper. Those countries (who are REALLY poor) benefit. We benefit with cheaper products as consumers. You are dead-on right.... the problems are the union contracts.

IMHO, the whole "they're stealing are jobs" crap from a pro-union person is extremely ironic. The unions are the reasons they are stealing your job.... you cost too much for what you are doing.

It's not really a big deal to me that there is a UAW. There are good unions in this nation like the IBEW etc... but when the Union is standing in the way of progress and health of the company... that's just stupid. That's harming the workers they are supposed to be helping. I'd imagine at this point it's probably more advantageous to be a non Union Auto Worker. Then you could probably keep your job.

saveuplife

Pacomc79 wrote:

It's not really a big deal to me that there is a UAW. There are good unions in this nation like the IBEW etc... but when the Union is standing in the way of progress and health of the company... that's just stupid. That's harming the workers they are supposed to be helping. I'd imagine at this point it's probably more advantageous to be a non Union Auto Worker. Then you could probably keep your job.

Well, that's kinda the point.

Kel Varnsen

Pacomc79 wrote:

Let them go bankrupt, end the Union contracts dragging them under and then rehire all the workers. NBD.

As it stands now laid off auto workers have it better than most of the rest of us.


This very issue is the very reason we have provisions for bankruptcy.


It's not the end of the world if they go bankrupt just like it wasn't with the airlines. Now. The UAW would suffer. But who really gives a shit about the UAW? They are the bulk of the problems with the industry to begin with.

Personally I don't really care about the autoworkers union. A few weeks ago in Canada, a tv call in show had a president of one of the Canadian CAW locals on, since Canada is considering possibly giving a bunch of money to the auto industry. It was insane how entitiled this guy was. Someone actually phoned in and asked how he can justify the insane amount of benefits that members get when the company is failing (the example used was free legal services for retired members who want to write a will). And the CAW guys reply was basically that non-union people are just jealous and wish they could get the same benefits. If those guys lost their jobs I would have not a lot of sympathy, because I think for the level of skill they have they have had it way too good for way too long.

Personally I think instead of giving money to failing companies, give the same amount of money to successful companies, to expand their operations. If you need to keep it in the auto industry give money to Honda or something and tell them to expand their Canadian operations. When GM goes under give them the option to buy up their facilities. Or just pick any successful industry and give them money (hell give the movie industry more money to produce more movies).

saveuplife

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Personally I don't really care about the autoworkers union. A few weeks ago in Canada, a tv call in show had a president of one of the Canadian CAW locals on, since Canada is considering possibly giving a bunch of money to the auto industry. It was insane how entitiled this guy was. Someone actually phoned in and asked how he can justify the insane amount of benefits that members get when the company is failing (the example used was free legal services for retired members who want to write a will). And the CAW guys reply was basically that non-union people are just jealous and wish they could get the same benefits. If those guys lost their jobs I would have not a lot of sympathy, because I think for the level of skill they have they have had it way too good for way too long.

Personally I think instead of giving money to failing companies, give the same amount of money to successful companies, to expand their operations. If you need to keep it in the auto industry give money to Honda or something and tell them to expand their Canadian operations. When GM goes under give them the option to buy up their facilities. Or just pick any successful industry and give them money (hell give the movie industry more money to produce more movies).

I kinda agree with your premise, but how about:

Give the money that you would give to the auto industry to the American (Canadian) people. Let them spend it on products they value.

The American auto industry simply can't compete with eastern asia because of the entitlement attitude. It's time to lose it.

Alertantively, why not form a new company and allow the others to go bankrupt? Take a few of the best products from each firm (GM, Ford and Crystler) and start a new company. All of these things are possible.

Bottomline: The auto industry does not deserve a bailout. They are not tied at all to the housing crash.

chromiam

saveuplife wrote:

I kinda agree with your premise, but how about:

Give the money that you would give to the auto industry to the American (Canadian) people. Let them spend it on products they value.

The American auto industry simply can't compete with eastern asia because of the entitlement attitude. It's time to lose it.

Alertantively, why not form a new company and allow the others to go bankrupt? Take a few of the best products from each firm (GM, Ford and Crystler) and start a new company. All of these things are possible.

Bottomline: The auto industry does not deserve a bailout. They are not tied at all to the housing crash.

No they may not be tied to the housing crash but a failure of the auto industry will lead to the failure of hundreds of companies whose main (and for the most part) only business is supplying parts to the US auto industry. That's where the most impact will be felt if there is an auto industry failure.

Kel Varnsen

chromiam wrote:

No they may not be tied to the housing crash but a failure of the auto industry will lead to the failure of hundreds of companies whose main (and for the most part) only business is supplying parts to the US auto industry. That's where the most impact will be felt if there is an auto industry failure.

But I am not sure why a failure of three companies would lead to the failure of a whole industry. Why not make an attarctive offer for Asian or European auto companies to expand their operations in North America. It would increase the number of jobs, plus if and when GM/Ford/Chrysler fail there will be a huge market share for these other companies to grab, so they will need to expand their operations. Plus you could give the money to companies that are run effectively.

chromiam

Kel Varnsen wrote:

But I am not sure why a failure of three companies would lead to the failure of a whole industry. Why not make an attarctive offer for Asian or European auto companies to expand their operations in North America. It would increase the number of jobs, plus if and when GM/Ford/Chrysler fail there will be a huge market share for these other companies to grab, so they will need to expand their operations. Plus you could give the money to companies that are run effectively.

There are hundreds of smaller companies which depend on the Big 3 for their and their employees livelyhoods... there are an estimated 5 people who are employed for every employed auto worker.. there is no way that any other Asian or European auto company would expand enough to make up for the losses which would occur. They might off-set some of the losses but I would guess not cover half of just US autoworker losses, not to mention the ancillary business losses.

saveuplife

chromiam wrote:

No they may not be tied to the housing crash but a failure of the auto industry will lead to the failure of hundreds of companies whose main (and for the most part) only business is supplying parts to the US auto industry. That's where the most impact will be felt if there is an auto industry failure.

I don't doubt that jobs will be lost, but I hope you'd agree that the gov't has to draw a line somewhere. Personally, I am not for any of these bailouts anymore. But, that's another story. That said, I can understand why some housing/related companies would go to the government for help. The recession is due to the decline in housing. It can asserted that monetary policy played a large part in building the bubble that popped in housing. Therefore, I can "see" why housing/related industries would go to the gov't for help.

The U.S. auto business is not housing-related. They are simply a poor industry. This was bound to happen once demand retrenched. During recessions, demand retrenches. During the next one, it will again, and the industry will be back. The U.S. auto industry is simply put... inefficient. They shouldgo bankrupt and actual alter their cost structures. Yes, it will hurt, but it's better than throwing money at someone begging for change and hoping that they won't come back.... they will come back. They've done this before and will do it again... basically, they are asking for a green light from the gov't.... and since, Dems won and are tied to Unions... they will most likely get it.

chromiam

Agreed... the way the auto industry is similar to the housing industry is that the effects of an auto industry collapse would be far reaching.. so in the end the government will have to help support the auto industry in some way. We both agree that it shouldn't be as a bailout but rather as a loan/investment after bankruptcy (if necessary) and restructuring.

Kel Varnsen

chromiam wrote:

There are hundreds of smaller companies which depend on the Big 3 for their and their employees livelyhoods... there are an estimated 5 people who are employed for every employed auto worker.. there is no way that any other Asian or European auto company would expand enough to make up for the losses which would occur. They might off-set some of the losses but I would guess not cover half of just US autoworker losses, not to mention the ancillary business losses.

I looked it up and the Big Three have about half of the entire market share for north american automobiles. Do you think if all three of them went out of business that the asian and european companies wouldn't ramp up their production like crazy to meet the demand, or would they just let their be a shortage of cars. I think they would ramp up their production, so why not make sure that when they do increase their production it is done in North American plants (to grab that other 50%)?

saveuplife

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I looked it up and the Big Three have about half of the entire market share for north american automobiles. Do you think if all three of them went out of business that the asian and european companies wouldn't ramp up their production like crazy to meet the demand, or would they just let their be a shortage of cars. I think they would ramp up their production, so why not make sure that when they do increase their production it is done in North American plants (to grab that other 50%)?

First, this process (big three failing) would take a lot longer than people make it out to.

Second, if it was immediate (which it wouldn't be), the int'l firms wouldn't ramp up production to meet demand because demand fell off a cliff, so it's very very very low right now. There's too much supply right now.

Third, since the process is not immediate, one of the big three would go, then the other, I bet atleast one would survive. You're right, the international auto co.s would come in and grab some of the share of the big three that went down. But, this would take a years.

The key is timing. If the gov't does nothing, they may sink, but it won't be quick. By the time the first goes under, I bet we'd be heading out of the recession. Which means, demand increases, perhaps saving the other two, they could then buy out some of the failed firm.