The big three
Vedder316
Posts: 205
I say we dont bail that bastards out. I will feel bad for their hard working blue collar workers not for the greed fuckers that run them. I love to see them now taking "hybrid" theory seriously. The decision to put dvds player and all those other useless gadgets in all their ritzy cars. Shit I knew it was over when they started charging $6000 for a monitor so we didn't have to expel the energy to turn our heads around to back up! They just had to make cars that parallel park for us instead of making cars more fuel friendly. Shit Gov isnt going to bail me out if my pocket book get low and i cant take my private plane to France every time i feel the need to get my balls powdered. Just a mindless rant ending a very long night of work. Take care everyone. Invest in horses.......we may need em.
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
Love ya Punkinfur
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Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
Yep. File bankruptcy first. Then renegotiate with the unions. The gov't should demand bankruptcy before they even talk to them.
They should not be telling the gov't "this is what we WILL do".... they should be telling them "this is what we've DONE". They haven't DONE squat because (moral hazard and the Dem win--union ties) makes them think the gov't is easy pickings.
SHOW COUNT: (164) 1990's=3, 2000's=53, 2010/20's=108, US=118, CAN=15, Europe=20 ,New Zealand=4, Australia=5
Mexico=1, Colombia=1
I'd just send in Andrew Toney to end that thread..
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
As it stands now laid off auto workers have it better than most of the rest of us.
This very issue is the very reason we have provisions for bankruptcy.
It's not the end of the world if they go bankrupt just like it wasn't with the airlines. Now. The UAW would suffer. But who really gives a shit about the UAW? They are the bulk of the problems with the industry to begin with.
The inmates currently are running the asylum not the recipie for a healthy company. Giving them a vast sum of money only prolongs a poorly run poorly structured non competing industry. They NEED to fail actually so they can get better.
Bob Nardelli is the stupid prick that got shit tons of money for being a failure at Home Depot.
HA except it would already be over as the Basketball Jesus would of already been done abusing the good doctor.
SHOW COUNT: (164) 1990's=3, 2000's=53, 2010/20's=108, US=118, CAN=15, Europe=20 ,New Zealand=4, Australia=5
Mexico=1, Colombia=1
The same people who are pro-union are the same people who bitch about the U.S. government not helping the poor and the same people who are against free trade benefiting other countries because they can supply labor for cheaper. Those countries (who are REALLY poor) benefit. We benefit with cheaper products as consumers. You are dead-on right.... the problems are the union contracts.
IMHO, the whole "they're stealing are jobs" crap from a pro-union person is extremely ironic. The unions are the reasons they are stealing your job.... you cost too much for what you are doing.
It's not really a big deal to me that there is a UAW. There are good unions in this nation like the IBEW etc... but when the Union is standing in the way of progress and health of the company... that's just stupid. That's harming the workers they are supposed to be helping. I'd imagine at this point it's probably more advantageous to be a non Union Auto Worker. Then you could probably keep your job.
Well, that's kinda the point.
Personally I don't really care about the autoworkers union. A few weeks ago in Canada, a tv call in show had a president of one of the Canadian CAW locals on, since Canada is considering possibly giving a bunch of money to the auto industry. It was insane how entitiled this guy was. Someone actually phoned in and asked how he can justify the insane amount of benefits that members get when the company is failing (the example used was free legal services for retired members who want to write a will). And the CAW guys reply was basically that non-union people are just jealous and wish they could get the same benefits. If those guys lost their jobs I would have not a lot of sympathy, because I think for the level of skill they have they have had it way too good for way too long.
Personally I think instead of giving money to failing companies, give the same amount of money to successful companies, to expand their operations. If you need to keep it in the auto industry give money to Honda or something and tell them to expand their Canadian operations. When GM goes under give them the option to buy up their facilities. Or just pick any successful industry and give them money (hell give the movie industry more money to produce more movies).
I kinda agree with your premise, but how about:
Give the money that you would give to the auto industry to the American (Canadian) people. Let them spend it on products they value.
The American auto industry simply can't compete with eastern asia because of the entitlement attitude. It's time to lose it.
Alertantively, why not form a new company and allow the others to go bankrupt? Take a few of the best products from each firm (GM, Ford and Crystler) and start a new company. All of these things are possible.
Bottomline: The auto industry does not deserve a bailout. They are not tied at all to the housing crash.
No they may not be tied to the housing crash but a failure of the auto industry will lead to the failure of hundreds of companies whose main (and for the most part) only business is supplying parts to the US auto industry. That's where the most impact will be felt if there is an auto industry failure.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
But I am not sure why a failure of three companies would lead to the failure of a whole industry. Why not make an attarctive offer for Asian or European auto companies to expand their operations in North America. It would increase the number of jobs, plus if and when GM/Ford/Chrysler fail there will be a huge market share for these other companies to grab, so they will need to expand their operations. Plus you could give the money to companies that are run effectively.
There are hundreds of smaller companies which depend on the Big 3 for their and their employees livelyhoods... there are an estimated 5 people who are employed for every employed auto worker.. there is no way that any other Asian or European auto company would expand enough to make up for the losses which would occur. They might off-set some of the losses but I would guess not cover half of just US autoworker losses, not to mention the ancillary business losses.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
I don't doubt that jobs will be lost, but I hope you'd agree that the gov't has to draw a line somewhere. Personally, I am not for any of these bailouts anymore. But, that's another story. That said, I can understand why some housing/related companies would go to the government for help. The recession is due to the decline in housing. It can asserted that monetary policy played a large part in building the bubble that popped in housing. Therefore, I can "see" why housing/related industries would go to the gov't for help.
The U.S. auto business is not housing-related. They are simply a poor industry. This was bound to happen once demand retrenched. During recessions, demand retrenches. During the next one, it will again, and the industry will be back. The U.S. auto industry is simply put... inefficient. They shouldgo bankrupt and actual alter their cost structures. Yes, it will hurt, but it's better than throwing money at someone begging for change and hoping that they won't come back.... they will come back. They've done this before and will do it again... basically, they are asking for a green light from the gov't.... and since, Dems won and are tied to Unions... they will most likely get it.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
I looked it up and the Big Three have about half of the entire market share for north american automobiles. Do you think if all three of them went out of business that the asian and european companies wouldn't ramp up their production like crazy to meet the demand, or would they just let their be a shortage of cars. I think they would ramp up their production, so why not make sure that when they do increase their production it is done in North American plants (to grab that other 50%)?
First, this process (big three failing) would take a lot longer than people make it out to.
Second, if it was immediate (which it wouldn't be), the int'l firms wouldn't ramp up production to meet demand because demand fell off a cliff, so it's very very very low right now. There's too much supply right now.
Third, since the process is not immediate, one of the big three would go, then the other, I bet atleast one would survive. You're right, the international auto co.s would come in and grab some of the share of the big three that went down. But, this would take a years.
The key is timing. If the gov't does nothing, they may sink, but it won't be quick. By the time the first goes under, I bet we'd be heading out of the recession. Which means, demand increases, perhaps saving the other two, they could then buy out some of the failed firm.
That certainly destroyed towns, etc as well.
Bailouts only push back the inevitiable, unless the business changes entirely.
There's the key point.. demand is horribly low right now.. especially in the group which US automakers threw all their egg (SUVs).. That's most of the problem there, they lived the life of kings selling SUVs to any and everyone never expecting demand to drop. But once gas prices skyrocketed and as a result SUV sales plummeted, auto industry had no backup plan.. hell they didn't even have a thought. And even with gas prices more manageable right now, consumers (as least the ones with half a brain) are going to stay away from the gas guzzling SUVs.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
The auto industry is sort of housing related. With housing taking a hit people aren't buying and building new houses like they would during a housing boom. Less houses being built means less money for contractors. And these are the guys who buy new trucks every few years (since they can write them off as business expenses). So since the US automakers have all their money behind trucks, when trucks take a hit so does their whole company.
pearljamguy@gmail.com
It is true this kind of thing would happen over a pretty long period of time. But why not spend some of that 25 billion to attract other auto companies to move more and more of their operations to the US. It would seem like a safer bet, and a smarter idea in the long run, then spending it on a company that may go under even if you give them that money.
I don't know about that tie. But, you can create good arguments for how autos are tied to housing....
...Hence, the problem. You can make a pretty good argument for every single industry being tied to housing. Should we bail out Circuit City? Starbucks? How about grocery stores? How about cities like Philly? ect.
That's why we shouldn't bail out anyone anymore. Moral Hazard is the key issue now.
Recessions cause pain. The quicker you deal with it, the quicker it's over. Consumer confidence is the problem right now. The government should be focusing on what got us into this problem: Housing. Not anything else.
To use an analogy I've used many times... it's like being in a sinking ship (failing economy) and bailing out the water (downturn) that's flowing into different parts of the boat (different industries). Rather than plugging the hole (housing). We need house prices to bottom, and things will return to normalcy.
Well, it shows something doesn't it? The eastern asian based auto makers are quicker to adapt and more dynamic. They adapt to demand. U.S. auto makers are just not up to speed. They basically saying take this product.... rather than really thinking about what people want. Moreover, once they start on one product, they can't call it off easily if demand changes. They are simply just bad at what they do.
Regardless, demand is only low for autos because we are in a recession. Demand is low for every single industry. Consumers have lost confidence. People are scared to buy things right now because they fear losing their jobs. Big ticket items (like cars) are the scariest.
Thier #1 issue is that they can't just retool and change thier operations because of thier union contracts and the way things are done. They make plenty of money in other areas of the world that they can't in the US. They like Delta etc have bought all these unsellable makes like Buick... Oldsmobile etc. They definately need to re tool I just don't think the US government should be in the business of lending them capitol to do so considering our own titanic amount of debt.
Thier failing will only do them and us good in the long run because it will force change. In my own opinion anyway.
What do you think would happen to their cost of credit in bankruptcy?
Who is going to lend to them THEN?
On principle i am against ANY bailout,
but i have got to agree 100% with Alex Jones on this one.
We have given the banks EVERYTHING ... TRILLIONS of dollars.
And what are they doing with it?
SITTING ON IT in many cases, and at worst, INVESTING DIRECTLY IN CHINA [Bank of America doubles down on Chinese Construction Bank with $7 BILLION].
So,
We Give To The Banks, The Banks Give To China, and
China Wants To Buy The Big 3 !?!?!
Shit, why don't we just GIVE the US Auto industry to China then?
And THAT is why i am with Alex on this one.
If we are going to give TRILLIONS to the banks to invest in foreign countries, allowing them to directly compete with the REAL US Economy, FOR NATIONAL SECURITY PURPOSES, WE SHOULD BAIL OUT THE BIG 3.
I HATE TO SAY THAT.
But it is ridiculous.
Manufacturing, the REAL economy, is the ONLY thing that will SAVE America from utter destruction. Why would we give TRILLIONS to the banks that CAUSED this mess, and NOTHING to the industries that stand to be a last line of defense against a depression and all out catastrophe.
30 Billion dollars i the equivalent of an Air Craft Carrier or two ...
I THINK WE CAN HANDLE IT.
Giving trillions to banks, JUST AS BAD OFF AS THE AUTOMAKERS, and offering no real PRODUCT, and not giving a PITTANCE in comparison to the Auto Makers is an out right crime.
Seriously.
It border on treason, the "logic" used by our government.
:rolleyes:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Exactly! All the foreign automakers have to do is turn the notch on their production lines to 11 to meet the drop in production of the Big 3. It's as simple as that!
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