What British Jews think of Israel
Byrnzie
Posts: 21,037
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1183428.ece
Excerpt:
Reform Rabbi Tony Bayfield, writing in The Guardian, described a deepening dilemma for many British Jews, torn between dismay and despair at Israel's actions and anger at the response to them in the British media. "As I listen to the news, with its details of Israel's return to Gaza, I cringe," he wrote. "I cringe at the continuing involvement of Israeli Jews in the suffering of Palestinians. I cringe because I can't believe that it will advance the cause of peace. I cringe at the seeming hopelessness of it all. But I also become incandescent at the sanctimonious advice and the hypocritical disavowal of any responsibility that is so prevalent in this country and even in certain quarters of the Church."
Privately, figures in what is known as the Jewish "establishment" have been aghast at right-wing American support for Israel and the campaigns of bombarding dissenting journalists with abusive e-mails. "If you want to characterise British Jewry, as opposed to the American Jewish community," sources say, "it has tended to support those Israeli governments that have made moves towards peace. The natural inclination here is to vote Tory in Britain and support Labour governments in Israel. People know where they want to get to. The South African Jewish community was far less ready to move with the times and US rabbis have been part of [right-wing] demonstrations against Israeli governments. It's not a coincidence that most of the hard-line Gush Eminem [settler] movement speaks with an American accent."
Israel and Zionism have now become virtual arguments between strangers on internet chatrooms - an alternative war in which the missiles being lobbed are URLs mined from Google supporting the thesis of either side. Reading these hysterical and abusive fights with their mutual accusations of "Nazi!", one is struck by how few of the participants, particularly those from America, have ever been to the country they feel so passionately about, either for or against. What differentiates most British Jews from the rest of the population is that they have actually visited Israel, and often have relatives there, often because before the Second World War families fleeing Europe took whatever visa they could get and found themselves flung out across the globe - in Britain, America, Argentina, South Africa or Mandate Palestine. Others emigrated to Israel out of ideological conviction or because they liked the place, or married Israelis.
Excerpt:
Reform Rabbi Tony Bayfield, writing in The Guardian, described a deepening dilemma for many British Jews, torn between dismay and despair at Israel's actions and anger at the response to them in the British media. "As I listen to the news, with its details of Israel's return to Gaza, I cringe," he wrote. "I cringe at the continuing involvement of Israeli Jews in the suffering of Palestinians. I cringe because I can't believe that it will advance the cause of peace. I cringe at the seeming hopelessness of it all. But I also become incandescent at the sanctimonious advice and the hypocritical disavowal of any responsibility that is so prevalent in this country and even in certain quarters of the Church."
Privately, figures in what is known as the Jewish "establishment" have been aghast at right-wing American support for Israel and the campaigns of bombarding dissenting journalists with abusive e-mails. "If you want to characterise British Jewry, as opposed to the American Jewish community," sources say, "it has tended to support those Israeli governments that have made moves towards peace. The natural inclination here is to vote Tory in Britain and support Labour governments in Israel. People know where they want to get to. The South African Jewish community was far less ready to move with the times and US rabbis have been part of [right-wing] demonstrations against Israeli governments. It's not a coincidence that most of the hard-line Gush Eminem [settler] movement speaks with an American accent."
Israel and Zionism have now become virtual arguments between strangers on internet chatrooms - an alternative war in which the missiles being lobbed are URLs mined from Google supporting the thesis of either side. Reading these hysterical and abusive fights with their mutual accusations of "Nazi!", one is struck by how few of the participants, particularly those from America, have ever been to the country they feel so passionately about, either for or against. What differentiates most British Jews from the rest of the population is that they have actually visited Israel, and often have relatives there, often because before the Second World War families fleeing Europe took whatever visa they could get and found themselves flung out across the globe - in Britain, America, Argentina, South Africa or Mandate Palestine. Others emigrated to Israel out of ideological conviction or because they liked the place, or married Israelis.
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Comments
a reform rabbi only speaks for himself and or mabee his congregation, that is not the totality ot british jews, i hardlly think conservative, and orthadox jews would neseserally agree with him, and i think you will find the orthadox who actually have some credability in the jewish world overwhelminglly support the state of israels right to self deffence
If you'll take the time to actually read the above article before commenting on it, you will see that it offers the opinion of Jews from all walks of life, and not just the views of a reform Rabbi. Hence the title of the article being 'What British Jews think of Israel'.
You are a perfect example of how too many people on this site type comments when discussing a topic without bothering to read what the topic is about. This helps to explain why we have all been going round and round in circles for the past few days.
Read the article before commenting on it!!
This article alone and the comments heard within it contradict much of the narrow-minded, spurious, and rasict crap that I have heard on this thread over the past week which has been directed at anyone critical of Israel.
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Well, I'm not a British jew, but I'm an Israeli jew. Believe me, no one is a better critic of the Israeli authorities than the Israeli jews. Newspaper journalists make our gov sweat, and not only when it comes to political issues. Lots of "noisy" radical left organizations. Lots of protesting.
One more thing: my home town Haifa is considerd to be THE symbole of co-existence between jews & arabs (Muslims and Christians). In fact, most of northern Israel, the area which is now getting bombed, is packed with mixed communities of jews & arabs. The ones who claim all jews hate arabs (or vice versa), all jews support Israel's actions etc', are simply demagogues who like to think in terms of black & white. Nice to know you're not one of them.
That's a very convenient way of brushing the views of an entire race of people in Britain under the carpet. You can now go back to Arab bashing and blaming everything on those that the Israeli government is persecuting.
Agreed.
Fair play to you Shiraz. Respect! It's always a relief to come across someone sensible and intelligent on the board. I thought some of the views in the above article were very interesting indeed.
It does anger me when I hear people on here being accused of being a 'Jew hater', or an anti-semite, both of which I was accused of being on here yesterday. It's the same with people criticising the Bush Administration when they are then accused of hating America. Too many people confuse a country, and a race, with the government of that country, or race. There is a difference. Obviously there is a fine line when discussing such things between criticising politicians, and sounding prejudiced against an entire nation. And it is sometimes difficult to rain criticism upon the government of a country without giving the impression that you have a problem with the entire country or race. I hope I haven't strayed over that line at any time on this board. If I have then I apologise to you.
And people living under the constant threat of having their homes bulldozed by Caterpillars supplied by the U.S, the constant threat of being picked off by an Israeli sniper, or the threat of being blown to pieces as collateral damage in a missile attack, will also think differently from you or me.
So anyway, what's your point? Does no one have the right to an opinion - including 260,000 British Jews - unless that opinion happens to agree with yours?
And so do Jews in the U.S live under the threat of suicide bombs? No. So then why is it that American Jews are generally so hungry for war and so supportive of the criminal government of Israel, as opposed to Jews in the rest of the world? I think it shows that the U.S media is keeping up it's good work of keeping people in the U.S subservient to the wishes of the corrupt Bush Administration, whilst focusing all of the blame for the present crisis upon anyone but Israel, as per usual.
Quite a broad, sweeping generalization you're making. Are you the mouthpiece for American Jews? Or did you conduct a nationwide poll? Are you anti-semetic or anti-facts? Thats like me saying American Blacks are generally hungry for welfare checks and free handouts. Why is it the most misinformed, misguided people love calling others misinformed and misguided?
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The majority of Americans who get their news from blog's and youtube and heavily biased newspapers, or watch The Daily Show, or other fringe sources get an extraordinarily skewed and unobjective take on everything that has happened in that region for the last 50 years.
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Most of the jewish support for the Zionists comes from America and Eastern Europe. They push the agenda to the right in Israel..probably because they want Israel to expand so someday, maybe, they'll move there. (that's an israeli that told me that btw).
That's not to say that every, probably not even most, of the jews there (and let alone in Europe) agree with that. But the ones who disagree are less vocal (as always, the extremists are always the ones that make themselves heard rather than the moderates :rolleyes: ).
A large proportion of actual Israelis (the ones who've were raised there) would rather find a solution that leaves everyone, Israelis and Palestians, with a chance to live in peace.
Precisely because they're the ones that get blown up. That's their life at stake, not some distant ideal of a jewish paradise.
And as teh article explained, because lots of Jews in Britain have long established family in Israel, they see that side too.
Bombing each other to bits will never solve anything (that of course goes as well for the Palestinians, Lebanese, etc terrorist groups). The first one to stop is actually the winner.
It doesn't surprise me people are paralysed in their perceptions and stuck in their patterns.
The opposite of being stuck in our patterns is expanding our patterns, and learning tiny bit by tiny bit, to understand more of the whole truth. The truth is all around us when we're willing to let go of our small-minded "I'm right" views.
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my question to plates is how does one find a balance of information? what avenues would a person travel to make sound deduction?
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If it's at all possible, I prefer to see myself as 'objective'. Angry and objective! I don't have any axe to grind because I don't have anything to protect. I'm not patriotic if patriotic means supporting your government. I couldn't give a fuck about countries, and borders.
As Bill Hicks once said, "The world was round the last time I checked."
My point is that when people tune out the feedback that is not objective (such as emotions), they tune it out. It doesn't go away, it just goes away from one's view and therefore one's control. Therefore, there are many people who think they are objective, and yet, they are as dysfunctioning and blind as it comes.
The real key to discerning real information when so much is slanted and biased, is really getting it together inside. By doing so, by melding the objective and the subjective, we can identify the whole picture, and not just fragments and shards. Tuning the value and meaning out of situations is crippling one's view. I'm not saying this to you, per se, but rather to anyone to whom it applies.
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
The person who force feeds info has no balance at all.....
IM grateful to have initiative and explore myself by seeking out other voice than what is familiar to my personal background.
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
For those who close off and protect their small world at all costs, they pay BIG. They miss the big world, and they miss out on understanding that big world.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I think it's fair to say that most politcians in this world have a complete lack of imagination, and are totally incapable of envisioning the consequences of their actions. This is a symptom of our modern day fixation on ideals, and concepts which blinker us to the wider reality.
I completely agree. They have lack of imagination and are seemingly not able to imagine the far-reaching consequences of their actions.
Commonly accepted personality type theory says that 70% of the general population is the same.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!