Iraq is finished

Cosmo

NCfan wrote:

I honestly do think there is a lot we can do to change their culture. War can completely change a culture. When you pretty much kill the enemy, their ideology usually dies with them or becomes illegitimate to most of the population.

Look at WWII (Nazi's and Imperial Japan) or the Cold War( Communism). Those ideologies became extinct for the most part after those wars.

...
Ideologies are not religious belief. The Germans and Japanese did not change their base religious beliefs. Both of those countries waged war because of economic reasons (Hitler used the 'Jewish Problem' somewhat in the same vein we are using the 'War On Terror' to justify our actions). If Muslim nations come here and destroys your property and family, will you renounce your Christian religious beliefs and convert to Islam? No. This fighting is religious in nature, not based upon economics. You can't truely believe that these deep rooted religious belief are going to change, just because you kill them. You will have to kill them all... which doesn't do them much good.
It is possible for them to share the benefits of a capitalistic economy and maintain their base religious beliefs... but, they have to come to the realization that they are all of the same religion. They have to come to that conclusion and I'm guessing that they won't take the word of, what they see as a sexually decadent, morally bankrupt, money worshipping godless country to show them the light.

RockinInCanada

I really think the USA has got to stop force feeding nations their form of democracy...its funnys how many years did it take for the modern system of western democracy to develope and mature....yet we try to force another country to grab up our system in a matter of a few years...plus people must realize that these people lived in a state that is the polar opposite of anything "Western"...I honestly must say if anyone believed/or believes that they could change these people overnight...you are beyond ignorant....if the States wants to save an oppressed people...by means help them out...but dont go and try to force your idealogy down their throats...for all you meet is resistance..but a bigger moral to the story is dont freaking lie through your teeth...because one day it will really come to bite you in the ass....and I honestly the reprecussions from this war have yet to be seen....more terrorists have been created in the last three years than all prior IMHO...

The Waiting Trophy Man

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I really think the USA has got to stop force feeding nations their form of democracy...its funnys how many years did it take for the modern system of western democracy to develope and mature....yet we try to force another country to grab up our system in a matter of a few years...plus people must realize that these people lived in a state that is the polar opposite of anything "Western"...I honestly must say if anyone believed/or believes that they could change these people overnight...you are beyond ignorant....if the States wants to save an oppressed people...by means help them out...but dont go and try to force your idealogy down their throats...for all you meet is resistance..but a bigger moral to the story is dont freaking lie through your teeth...because one day it will really come to bite you in the ass....and I honestly the reprecussions from this war have yet to be seen....more terrorists have been created in the last three years than all prior IMHO...

america has a dark future.

Cosmo

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I really think the USA has got to stop force feeding nations their form of democracy...its funnys how many years did it take for the modern system of western democracy to develope and mature....yet we try to force another country to grab up our system in a matter of a few years...plus people must realize that these people lived in a state that is the polar opposite of anything "Western"...I honestly must say if anyone believed/or believes that they could change these people overnight...you are beyond ignorant....if the States wants to save an oppressed people...by means help them out...but dont go and try to force your idealogy down their throats...for all you meet is resistance..but a bigger moral to the story is dont freaking lie through your teeth...because one day it will really come to bite you in the ass....and I honestly the reprecussions from this war have yet to be seen....more terrorists have been created in the last three years than all prior IMHO...

...
I wish our foriegn policy was based upon 'Leadership By Example'. In other words, we get our shit together and show others how they can accomplish the same. Make it so they want to be more like us, not us wanting them to be like us. And let the people of other nations decide on what they want, instead of us telling them that if they do as we say, they'd be a lot happier. Who knows, maybe there are those whom only want to peacefully tend a small farm that has been in their family for centuries and has no desire for monetary wealth and cable television. Let them be.
Too much of our foriegn policy is based upon OUR economic growth and stability, not their well being. Increasing the stocks of our company does little for the people in countries whose resources we consume. We need to quit wasting our tax dollars lining the pockets of corrupt government officials who use our weapons to oppress their people. I would much rather see my tax dollars, that are earmarked for foriegn aid, to help the people of other nations, not just the leaders of other nations. I figure, if we can make friends with the people of the world, they wouldn't be cheering as commercial airliners crash into our office buildings.
I know that I'm just a fucking 'Tree-huggin' peacenik' idealist to some... whatever, I don't care how I'm labeled. I just know that if we treat people as humans... the way we like to be treated ourselves, things might not be so shitty.

Eliot Rosewater

Cosmo wrote:

...
I wish our foriegn policy was based upon 'Leadership By Example'. In other words, we get our shit together and show others how they can accomplish the same. Make it so they want to be more like us, not us wanting them to be like us. And let the people of other nations decide on what they want, instead of us telling them that if they do as we say, they'd be a lot happier. Who knows, maybe there are those whom only want to peacefully tend a small farm that has been in their family for centuries and has no desire for monetary wealth and cable television. Let them be.
Too much of our foriegn policy is based upon OUR economic growth and stability, not their well being. Increasing the stocks of our company does little for the people in countries whose resources we consume. We need to quit wasting our tax dollars lining the pockets of corrupt government officials who use our weapons to oppress their people. I would much rather see my tax dollars, that are earmarked for foriegn aid, to help the people of other nations, not just the leaders of other nations. I figure, if we can make friends with the people of the world, they wouldn't be cheering as commercial airliners crash into our office buildings.
I know that I'm just a fucking 'Tree-huggin' peacenik' idealist to some... whatever, I don't care how I'm labeled. I just know that if we treat people as humans... the way we like to be treated ourselves, things might not be so shitty.

Great post....and much like I've suggested several times on this board. If America wants Iran or Korea or anyone else to disarm or to stop building nukes then we need to lead by example. We've got over 10,000 nuclear warheads. How in the world can we expect anyone to not have nukes of their own? Especially with our history of dropping the motherfuckers....on civilians even. The only road to peace is peace itself. Anyway you look at it, stockpiling 10,000+ nukes has nothing to do with peace. America has a crucial element of life so insanely wrong that it's killing everyone. Respect is far more likely to lead to a peaceful world than fear. Fear is carnal and deadly. Respect for others and in turn being respected by others will undoubtedly lead to the positive changes needed for peace. If I as a citizen cannot respect the leadership in this country, how on earth can someone outside this country respect it?

Abuskedti

Cosmo wrote:

...
I wish our foriegn policy was based upon 'Leadership By Example'. In other words, we get our shit together and show others how they can accomplish the same. Make it so they want to be more like us, not us wanting them to be like us. And let the people of other nations decide on what they want, instead of us telling them that if they do as we say, they'd be a lot happier. Who knows, maybe there are those whom only want to peacefully tend a small farm that has been in their family for centuries and has no desire for monetary wealth and cable television. Let them be.
Too much of our foriegn policy is based upon OUR economic growth and stability, not their well being. Increasing the stocks of our company does little for the people in countries whose resources we consume. We need to quit wasting our tax dollars lining the pockets of corrupt government officials who use our weapons to oppress their people. I would much rather see my tax dollars, that are earmarked for foriegn aid, to help the people of other nations, not just the leaders of other nations. I figure, if we can make friends with the people of the world, they wouldn't be cheering as commercial airliners crash into our office buildings.
I know that I'm just a fucking 'Tree-huggin' peacenik' idealist to some... whatever, I don't care how I'm labeled. I just know that if we treat people as humans... the way we like to be treated ourselves, things might not be so shitty.

Nice work tree hugger

RockinInCanada

don't gimme no wrote:

Great post....and much like I've suggested several times on this board. If America wants Iran or Korea or anyone else to disarm or to stop building nukes then we need to lead by example. We've got over 10,000 nuclear warheads. How in the world can we expect anyone to not have nukes of their own? Especially with our history of dropping the motherfuckers....on civilians even. The only road to peace is peace itself. Anyway you look at it, stockpiling 10,000+ nukes has nothing to do with peace. America has a crucial element of life so insanely wrong that it's killing everyone. Respect is far more likely to lead to a peaceful world than fear. Fear is carnal and deadly. Respect for others and in turn being respected by others will undoubtedly lead to the positive changes needed for peace. If I as a citizen cannot respect the leadership in this country, how on earth can someone outside this country respect it?

That is the irony of a lot of debates...I am outside the country and respect is not even the same vocabulary of terms to decribe current American leadership....

IndianSummer

iraq is now a bushocracy.

rightondude

Cosmo wrote:

...
I wish our foriegn policy was based upon 'Leadership By Example'. In other words, we get our shit together and show others how they can accomplish the same. Make it so they want to be more like us, not us wanting them to be like us. And let the people of other nations decide on what they want, instead of us telling them that if they do as we say, they'd be a lot happier. Who knows, maybe there are those whom only want to peacefully tend a small farm that has been in their family for centuries and has no desire for monetary wealth and cable television. Let them be.
Too much of our foriegn policy is based upon OUR economic growth and stability, not their well being. Increasing the stocks of our company does little for the people in countries whose resources we consume. We need to quit wasting our tax dollars lining the pockets of corrupt government officials who use our weapons to oppress their people. I would much rather see my tax dollars, that are earmarked for foriegn aid, to help the people of other nations, not just the leaders of other nations. I figure, if we can make friends with the people of the world, they wouldn't be cheering as commercial airliners crash into our office buildings.
I know that I'm just a fucking 'Tree-huggin' peacenik' idealist to some... whatever, I don't care how I'm labeled. I just know that if we treat people as humans... the way we like to be treated ourselves, things might not be so shitty.

That's the true realty of it.

Cosmo

excerpt:
"WASHINGTON - Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki appealed to Congress Wednesday to press the war in Iraq with money and troops, portraying his country as crucial to the U.S. as a front line in the war on terror and comparing violence there to the Sept. 11 attacks.
Addressing a joint meeting of Congress, al-Maliki said, "Do not imagine that this problem is solely an Iraqi problem because the terrorist front represents a threat to all free countries and free people of the world.""
ref. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060726/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq_20;_ylt=AuievhbrzLQ4ScjYoRdDfcdX6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
...
Maybe the supporters of this war should break out their check books... because, you know how the government is incapable of handling money and the private sector is a much better way to go.

Milestone

Byrnzie wrote:

Do you honestly believe that America is there solely for noble and altruistic purposes?

But........that's what FOX News says!

Hoon

It may be a good idea.

I'm not so sure it was for India/Pakistan though.

It may just serve the interests of the greedy plan.

Turkey threatened to enter N. Iraq.

Anything sounds good really.

I support all countries getting smaller and divided, some are just too dam big, Some identify with nationalistic pride and won't let go.

Just make sure each division has equal resources....like water / farmland....or violence will be permanent.

Cosmo

Hoon wrote:

It may be a good idea.

I'm not so sure it was for India/Pakistan though.

It may just serve the interests of the greedy plan.

Turkey threatened to enter N. Iraq.

Anything sounds good really.

I support all countries getting smaller and divided, some are just too dam big, Some identify with nationalistic pride and won't let go.

Just make sure each division has equal resources....like water / farmland....or violence will be permanent.

...
Here's a plan:
We take the entire fucking region... erase all the goddamn lines on the map... throw all of those fuckers in one room and make them draw up the fucking borders for themselves.
We'll give 'em a year to figure that shit out. if they don't come up with an agreement bt then... the whole fucking lot is given to Mexico to manage.
...
That should do the trick.

rightondude

well......

Pack up, and bring all your marshmallows ladies and gents....there's gonna be plenty of rather large assorted bonfires to come in Iraq. Mostly in places you wouldn't expect to see either!

Abuskedti

Byrnzie wrote:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1193108.ece

Sectarian break-up of Iraq is now inevitable, admit officials
By Patrick Cockburn in Amman
Published: 24 July 2006

The Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, meets Tony Blair in London today as violence in Iraq reaches a new crescendo and senior Iraqi officials say the break up of the country is inevitable.

A car bomb in a market in the Shia stronghold of Sadr City in Baghdad yesterday killed 34 people and wounded a further 60 and was followed by a second bomb in the same area two hours later that left a further eight dead. Another car bomb outside a court house in Kirkuk killed a further 20 and injured 70 people.

"Iraq as a political project is finished," a senior government official was quoted as saying, adding: "The parties have moved to plan B." He said that the Shia, Sunni and Kurdish parties were now looking at ways to divide Iraq between them and to decide the future of Baghdad, where there is a mixed population. "There is serious talk of Baghdad being divided into [Shia] east and [Sunni] west," he said.

Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi Foreign Minister, told The Independent in an interview, before joining Mr Maliki to fly to London and then Washington, that in theory the government should be able to solve the crisis because Shia, Kurd and Sunni were elected members of it.

But he painted a picture of a deeply divided administration in which senior Sunni members praised anti-government insurgents as "the heroic resistance".

In the past two weeks, at a time when Lebanon has dominated the international news, the sectarian civil war in central Iraq has taken a decisive turn for the worse. There have been regular tit-for-tat massacres and the death toll for July is likely to far exceed the 3,149 civilians killed in June.

Mr Maliki, who is said to be increasingly isolated, has failed to prevent the violence. Other Iraqi leaders claim he lacks experience in dealing with security, is personally very isolated without a kitchen cabinet and is highly dependent on 30-40 Americans in unofficial advisory positions around him.

"The government is all in the Green Zone like the previous one and they have left the streets to the terrorists," said Mahmoud Othman, a veteran Iraqi politician. He said the situation would be made worse by the war in Lebanon because it would intensify the struggle between Iran and the US being staged in Iraq. The Iraqi crisis would now receive much reduced international attention.

The switch of American and British media attention to Lebanon and away from the rapidly deteriorating situation in Baghdad is much to the political benefit of Mr Blair and Mr Bush.

"Maliki's trip to Washington is all part of the US domestic agenda to put a good face on things for November," a European diplomat in Baghdad was quoted as saying.

Ever since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein a succession of Iraqi political leaders have been fêted in London and Washington where they claimed to have the insurgents on the run. Mr Maliki's meetings with Mr Blair today and Mr Bush tomorrow are likely to be lower key but will serve the same purpose before the US Congressional elections in November. US commanders are considering moving more of their troops - there are some 55,000 near the capital * into Baghdad to halt sectarian violence.

Meanwhile, Saddam Hussein has begun to receive fluids voluntarily after being taken to hospital following 17 days on a hunger strike to protest against biased court procedures and the murder of three defence lawyers.Among fellow Sunni his defiant court performances have rehabilitated his reputation, though he is still detested by Kurds and Shia.

Civil war is not finished.. America had a civil war. They have been finished, and will continue to be finished from the moment we invaded, conquered, and impose our will.

Sadly they Iraq is losing its life, self respect, and identity daily. Many think that is a good thing. Those people are wrong.

kenny olav

if they're not ready to live together, why not let them divide?

rightondude

I wonder if everyone will line up miles long with the US soldiers and do high fives like at the end of a hockey game...