I won't even bother trying to argue my point with you Jlew. Experience has taught me that it's just pissing in the wind. As I've mentioned before, when it comes to debating anything with you it all just turns into pathetic word games, due mainly to the fact that you have no argument.
I'll just let everyone reading this thread make their own conclusions.
its clear to see. allow me to break it down for you. since I "have no argument" guess what, my argument is that civilians should never be targets. you disagree.
IIf those killed are living on stolen land then I don't see how they qualify as 'innocent'.
you want to let everyone reading this thread make their own conclusions. ok fine. here it is..... unless Israel moves back to 1967 borders they have no RIGHT to peace and ANYONE (women children or peaceful Israeli citizens) living in disputed land are not deemed innocent and Palestinians have the RIGHT to resist (kill) them.
my argument is that civilians should never be targets. you disagree.
you say this...
you want to let everyone reading this thread make their own conclusions. ok fine. here it is..... unless Israel moves back to 1967 borders they have no RIGHT to peace and ANYONE (women children or peaceful Israeli citizens) living in disputed land are not deemed innocent and Palestinians have the RIGHT to resist (kill) them.
I got it.
O.k, wise old man, here it is...I said that those civilians living on stolen land can not be considered innocent. Their mere presence is a provocation and they are there as a result of violent and illegal actions and policies. During world war 2 the Nazis moved Germans into houses in Eastern Germany - Bavaria, the Suddetenland, or whatever they called it - and Poland, In order to establish a permanent presence there. They moved into homes that had been forcibly cleared of their original inhabitants who were then sent to live in ghettoes - does this ring a bell? Can these German citizens be considered innocent?
Jews who willingly move into the illegal settlements do so with the knowledge that they are moving onto land stolen by violence and intimidation. If the father of such a family wants to place his wife and children in the line of fire then who's to blame? The settlements represent violence and theft. Can they be considered a viable target by those whose land they have stolen? The answer is 'yes' for anyone able to put themselves in the shoes of a Palestinian. If someone forced you and your family out of your home at gunpoint and then bulldozed your home would you consider those who then moved onto your land innocent? Err, nope. You'd see them as a viable target.
you are confused young child. someone in this thread said they fully support killing civilians who live on disputed land.
No they didn't. Someone on this thread said he understood that Israeli's living in the illegal settlements are not 'innocent' and Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and their land.
And just in case you've forgotten, 5 times as many Palestinian civilians have been murdered as Israeli's. And seeing as you're an apologist for the occupation....?
Still, nice attempt at muddying the water and getting off topic.
sorry, I do not agree with killing civilians. you do. grow a sac and stop dancing around it.
Oooh, tough guy.
You support the occupation, but you don't agree with killing civilians? Errm, sorry to have to break this to you, but Palestinians haven't been evicted peacefully, or lawfully. Ya see, thousands have been killed. Get it?
You support the occupation, but you don't agree with killing civilians? Errm, sorry to have to break this to you, but Palestinians haven't been evicted peacefully, or lawfully. Ya see, thousands have been killed. Get it?
I don't support the occupation. I don't support Israel killing Palestinian civilians. I don't support hamas killing Israeli civilians.. YOU DO.
I do support Israel's right to exist. I do support Palestine's right to exist. what the exact borders should be? I don't know. thats for them to figure out.
you want to let everyone reading this thread make their own conclusions. ok fine. here it is..... unless Israel moves back to 1967 borders they have no RIGHT to peace and ANYONE (women children or peaceful Israeli citizens) living in disputed land are not deemed innocent and Palestinians have the RIGHT to resist (kill) them.
I got it.
not sure if ya got that faaaaaaaar more innocent palestinians are killed by israelis than the other way around. i'm sure you will say Amnesty International are lying to help protect the palestinians but you can easily do a google search for suicide bombings in israel and find an israeli government website stating....actually here it is, it was the first link in the search
Palestinian death toll triples this year he number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza Strip tripled this year, according to an Israeli human rights organisation. B'Tselem said 660 Palestinians had been killed during 2006, including 141 minors. The report claimed that at least 322 of those killed were not fighters.
there, israel surpased the death count several times over for a 4 year period in just 1 fucking year, a year where there were only 3 attacks on israel
yeah, you really care about innocents dying :rolleyes:
Children and civilian bystanders in Gaza death toll
Israeli military air strikes and artillery attacks on the Gaza Strip during the last few days have killed over 100 Palestinians, including dozens of children and other civilian bystanders. Three Israelis – a civilian killed by a rocket fired by a Palestinian armed group on 27 February and two soldiers – were also killed.
Many of the Palestinians killed were militants involved in attacks on Israel, but others were unarmed civilians taking no part in the hostilities, including some 25 children. The precise number of civilians killed is unclear and difficult to establish.
The Israeli chief of staff is reported to have claimed that 90 percent of those killed were militants, but the UN and other sources, including those in Gaza, suggest that as many as half of the dead were civilians. More than 250 other people, including scores of unarmed civilians, have been injured.
Israeli forces also destroyed houses and property across the Gaza Strip, including at least two medical facilities, before withdrawing on 3 March.
do you fucking care about them destroying 2 medical facilities???? doubt i'll get a real answer from you
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
not sure if ya got that faaaaaaaar more innocent palestinians are killed by israelis than the other way around. i'm sure you will say Amnesty International are lying to help protect the palestinians but you can easily do a google search for suicide bombings in israel and find an israeli government website stating....actually here it is, it was the first link in the search
I do not support Israel killing Palestinian civilians.
I do not support Israel killing Palestinian civilians.
But you'll defend Israel whenever anyone on this message pit criticizes the occupation, or Israeli atrocities e.t.c. You'll then argue till the cows come home that 'both sides are as bad as each other' in order to pretend that we should just wash our hands of the issue. You pretend to be impartial, but your nothing of the sort. Anyone here who voices any criticism of Israel must be a 'Jihadist' who 'fully supports the killing of Israeli civilians' in your eyes.
But you'll defend Israel whenever anyone on this message pit criticizes the occupation, or Israeli atrocities e.t.c. You'll then argue till the cows come home that 'both sides are as bad as each other' in order to pretend that we should just wash our hands of the issue. You pretend to be impartial, but your nothing of the sort. Anyone here who voices any criticism of Israel must be a 'Jihadist' who 'fully supports the killing of Israeli civilians' in your eyes.
Don't think you're fooling anyone.
I'm not defending Israel. I'm defending against killing civilians. something Hamas and you openly support. all I'm saying is that Israeli civilians are not viable targets. you take my posts as being pro occupation or some shit. nice try. just because I do not support hamas targeting civilians, doesnt mean I support Israel.
first of all you really need to relax. all I picture on the other side of the computer is some wacky college kid banging his head on the keyboard and using caps locks much too often. relax, take deep breaths, lay off the cookies and coffee.
I could go on...but It's become boring.
Suffice to say, you don't have much of a chip on your shoulder do you?
have a little too much time or your hands today? sorry if you don't like my style but if you think those posts are bannable then this board would have no members. are you lobbying for being a mod?
Hmm, let's see...
Originally Posted by lazymoon13
you support killing Israeli civilians who live in disputed land. I do not.
disputed land???? wtf is disputed about a lot of it!?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I could go on...but It's become boring.
Suffice to say, you don't have much of a chip on your shoulder do you?
Nice string of quotes there Byrnzie...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
In the end it came down to a single-page letter, written in Hebrew and Arabic and hand-delivered by an Israeli army officer who knocked at the front door. The letter spelt the imminent destruction of the whitewashed three-storey home and small, tree-lined garden that Bassam Suleiman spent so long saving for and then built with his family a decade ago.
It was a final demolition order, with instructions to evacuate the house within three days.
If Suleiman was in any doubt about the Israeli military's intentions he had only to look outside his back door where large piles of rubble and broken concrete mark the remains of the seven of his neighbours' houses that were demolished in the same way last year.
"How would you feel when you've spent 20 years finishing your life's project?" said Suleiman, 38, a teacher. He began moving his furniture out after the letter, from the civil administration of Judea and Samaria, the defence ministry department responsible for the Israeli-occupied West Bank, came on January 31. Now there are just a couple of plastic chairs in his front room and in the hallway the carpets are rolled up and ready to be moved. Clothes are piled on the floor and the shelves are empty, save for a stack of documents charting the story of the impending demolition. His brother, Husam, has already left the ground floor flat but the new washing machine and fridge stand still wrapped in plastic. Suleiman, his wife and two children wait for the bulldozers.
"Everything I did in my life was for what's now inside this house and now it's going to be destroyed," said Suleiman. "It's very hard for me to find somewhere else to live."
The Israeli authorities argue that Suleiman's house was built in a part of the West Bank known as area C, a designation from the era of the Oslo Accords which means Israel has full military and administrative control. In order to build, a Palestinian must apply for a permit from the Israeli authorities. If there is no permit - as in Suleiman's case - the building is liable for demolition.
Area C covers 60% of the West Bank, home to around 70,000 Palestinians. It is also the area in which most Jewish settlements, all illegal under international law, are built. Compelling statistical evidence shows that while it is extremely hard for Palestinians to obtain building permits, settlements continue to grow rapidly.
Research by the Israeli group Peace Now found that 94% of Palestinian permit applications for Area C building were refused between 2000 and September 2007. Only 91 permits were granted to Palestinians, but 18,472 housing units were built in Jewish settlements. As a result of demolition orders 1,663 Palestinian buildings were demolished, against only 199 in the settlements. "The denial of permits for Palestinians on such a large scale raises the fear that there is a specific policy by the authorities to encourage a 'silent transfer' of the Palestinian population from area C," Peace Now said.
This year there has been a marked increase in demolitions. There were 138 demolitions between January and March, most in area C, compared with 29 in the last three months of 2007, according to the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs. This year 400 Palestinians have been displaced as a result. At a time of a renewed peace process to create an independent Palestinian state, the reality in the West Bank is that Jewish settlements are growing and demolitions of Palestinian homes are on the increase.
The problems of the village of Far'un, south of Tulkarm, are complicated by the vast West Bank barrier, which here runs away from the 1949 ceasefire line that divides Israel and the Palestinian territories. The wide, steel fence, which passes just a few dozen metres from Suleiman's home, cuts off the village from a slice of its agricultural land and underground water reserves and has turned this area into a dangerous no-go zone: in December 2006, a 14-year-old Palestinian girl playing nearby was shot dead by an Israeli soldier.
Suleiman's house and that of his neighbour Emad Hassahsi, which has also received a demolition order, were built before the barrier arrived, in an area they were told - and they have letters that appear to support their claim - was area B, in which Palestinians have administrative control and therefore somewhere they thought they could safely build. Only later did the Israeli military announce it was in fact area C. There are similar disputes about the exact delineation of the different areas elsewhere the West Bank.
Israel's civil administration offered no explanation for the rise in demolitions but told the Guardian: "The procedures that are carried out before the materialisation of a demolition order include: issuance of an order to cease building that is usually issued in the early stages of the construction of foundations; numerous deliberations at the high planning and zoning committee and of course an open door to the supreme court of justice. These procedures are valid for both Palestinians and Israelis alike." It said the buildings demolished in Far'un were "built illegally without the required licences".
One effect of the strict planning curbs is to limit the growth of Palestinian villages. "If you look at the way the Israelis are enforcing planning and construction regulations you see they are being enforced in a one-sided way," said Avi Berg, research director of the leading Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, which has worked on the Far'un case.
Settlement growth continues apace despite the fact that the current peace talks are based on the US Road Map, under which Israel is required to freeze settlement activity. In another report, Peace Now said that since the talks began at Annapolis last November, Israel was still building 500 homes in West Bank settlements and had issued tenders for 750 homes in East Jerusalem settlements. Reports suggest another 1,400 homes will be built in two settlements in East Jerusalem and in the West Bank.
The Israeli government defends the continued settlement construction particularly in the major settlements which it calls "population centres", saying it will not build new settlements or expropriate more land. "In the population centres and in Jerusalem the reality on the ground will not be the same in the future as it is today," Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert said last month. "There will be more additional building as part of the reality of life and this is something that was explained ..."
Not all the cases of demolition involve homes. In January, Israeli forces uprooted 3,200 trees, destroyed water cisterns and stone terraces in fields near Beit Ula, close to Hebron, in the southern West Bank. Again this was in area C. The civil administration said the demolition was an "enforcement activity" carried out after legal warnings.
But in this case the target was a €64,000 (£51,000) project from the European commission which began two years ago to provide a livelihood for the villagers, several of whom also put their own money into the planting.
"It was a tragedy for us," said Sami al-Adam, 46, a farmer who had put in 45,000 shekels. "They're tearing me out by my roots. They want to destroy Palestinian farmers psychologically and economically."
You support the occupation, but you don't agree with killing civilians? Errm, sorry to have to break this to you, but Palestinians haven't been evicted peacefully, or lawfully. Ya see, thousands have been killed. Get it?
I hear Hamas is looking for a few good men.....to blow themselves up on buses. You should sign up.
I hear Hamas is looking for a few good men.....to blow themselves up on buses. You should sign up.
That's intelligent.
I wonder if you're a relation of Jlew's/Lazymoon's by any chance?
9 posts and he's straight on my back.
The mods really need to start checking i.p addresses. :rolleyes:
I promised myself I would not get bogged down into silly conversations with people who seem to not understand the meaning of the word peace.
I challenge anyone to go to the occupied territories as I have and see for themselves what impact the Israeli occupation and terrorism has had on the daily lives of peaceful Palestinians.
I can almost already hear the response of some - " but Israeli citizens are killed also .... what about the Kazzam rockets? "
Resistance for some is the only thing that keeps them willing to live. Having grown up in a completely different conflict situation I'd personally rather resist that live life on my knees.
I would also like to state that in my personal experience I saw that the animals kept by the settlers have more rights than their palestinians neighbours - running water taken from sources within Palestinian land and sprinklers in their gardens of homes for their plants and flowers something that resembles a nice middle class town.
Homes built by Palestinian hands taken from under them by both the Israeli army and these so called 'settlers'.
The inequality is so stark it is makes one physically ill ..... to see people demonised merely for being a Palestinian and left without their farms, homes, land, human rights and often their dignity is not acceptable in a region that boasts to be the only 'democracy' in the middle east. When are people going to wake up and understand that this situation is not helped by the millions of USA tax payers money sent to fund Israel each year or the equipment supplied to the forces of occupation. Silence is complicity!.... to sit idly by and watch from afar while innocents die and make excuses as to why this is permitted makes one as guilty as those that arm the killing machines of the occupation forces
As a human being I am disgusted that people have to live in various places on our planet suffering....... of course it is an utopia idea to believe that we could have such an ideal as world peace but my god people building a wall and annexing of a complete region and collectivelt punishing a nation of people is reminiscent of something Hitler would have done..............
Reminds me of something Friere said - to paraphrase
The worse scenario is when the oppressed become the oppressors.
" You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
I promised myself I would not get bogged down into silly conversations with people who seem to not understand the meaning of the word peace.
I challenge anyone to go to the occupied territories as I have and see for themselves what impact the Israeli occupation and terrorism has had on the daily lives of peaceful Palestinians.
I can almost already hear the response of some - " but Israeli citizens are killed also .... what about the Kazzam rockets? "
Resistance for some is the only thing that keeps them willing to live. Having grown up in a completely different conflict situation I'd personally rather resist that live life on my knees.
I would also like to state that in my personal experience I saw that the animals kept by the settlers have more rights than their palestinians neighbours - running water taken from sources within Palestinian land and sprinklers in their gardens of homes for their plants and flowers something that resembles a nice middle class town.
Homes built by Palestinian hands taken from under them by both the Israeli army and these so called 'settlers'.
The inequality is so stark it is makes one physically ill ..... to see people demonised merely for being a Palestinian and left without their farms, homes, land, human rights and often their dignity is not acceptable in a region that boasts to be the only 'democracy' in the middle east. When are people going to wake up and understand that this situation is not helped by the millions of USA tax payers money sent to fund Israel each year or the equipment supplied to the forces of occupation. Silence is complicity!.... to sit idly by and watch from afar while innocents die and make excuses as to why this is permitted makes one as guilty as those that arm the killing machines of the occupation forces
As a human being I am disgusted that people have to live in various places on our planet suffering....... of course it is an utopia idea to believe that we could have such an ideal as world peace but my god people building a wall and annexing of a complete region and collectivelt punishing a nation of people is reminiscent of something Hitler would have done..............
Reminds me of something Friere said - to paraphrase
The worse scenario is when the oppressed become the oppressors.
What were you doing out there?
I'm thinking of going out there myself at some point to see first-hand what's happening.
What were you doing out there?
I'm thinking of going out there myself at some point to see first-hand what's happening.
Long story - But was working on a twinning schools project on behalf of Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign. twinning schools in west bank and gaza with schools in Belfast and doing some work with a charity we set up in Belfast called Palestine's Child. We did a bit of everything though and because we'd already a network of people we'd been working alongside in Palestine it was truly an experience.
I don't want to go into too much detail here on board but feel free to email me @ peacefulreturns@yahoo.com if you want information on anything.....
The ISM ( international solidarity Movement) are excellent I didn't go that route however I know a few people who did and loved the experience.
The only thing I will say is its very hard to leave.
" You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
smartest thing I've heard you say yet. be sure to check out east Jerusalem too, and ask the 30,00 Israelis to leave.
lmao - I had quite an eye opening to the opinions of many Israelis whilst there - the majority agreed with my opinions - the only thing that they could not get past and refused to accept was the right to return....................... apart from that many should shoulder to shoulder with me as we walked Palestinian children to school through checkpoints and protesting against that horrible dirty big wall.
It's a different reality - I would hate it to my reality and therefore that is why I will always not only support the Palestinians right to a state but also their right to equality and an end to being treated as second class citizens because ultimately there is no excuse for that.........
" You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
lmao - I had quite an eye opening to the opinions of many Israelis whilst there - the majority agreed with my opinions - the only thing that they could not get past and refused to accept was the right to return....................... apart from that many should shoulder to shoulder with me as we walked Palestinian children to school through checkpoints and protesting against that horrible dirty big wall.
It's a different reality - I would hate it to my reality and therefore that is why I will always not only support the Palestinians right to a state but also their right to equality and an end to being treated as second class citizens because ultimately there is no excuse for that.........
I was there too and saw the same thing. it all comes down to where you draw the line in the sand. there is no easy answer. people go on and on about the 1967 borders or death. after being there several times, I just do not see those SAME borders returning. so I guess that means death?
I promised myself I would not get bogged down into silly conversations with people who seem to not understand the meaning of the word peace.
I challenge anyone to go to the occupied territories as I have and see for themselves what impact the Israeli occupation and terrorism has had on the daily lives of peaceful Palestinians.
I can almost already hear the response of some - " but Israeli citizens are killed also .... what about the Kazzam rockets? "
Resistance for some is the only thing that keeps them willing to live. Having grown up in a completely different conflict situation I'd personally rather resist that live life on my knees.
I would also like to state that in my personal experience I saw that the animals kept by the settlers have more rights than their palestinians neighbours - running water taken from sources within Palestinian land and sprinklers in their gardens of homes for their plants and flowers something that resembles a nice middle class town.
Homes built by Palestinian hands taken from under them by both the Israeli army and these so called 'settlers'.
The inequality is so stark it is makes one physically ill ..... to see people demonised merely for being a Palestinian and left without their farms, homes, land, human rights and often their dignity is not acceptable in a region that boasts to be the only 'democracy' in the middle east. When are people going to wake up and understand that this situation is not helped by the millions of USA tax payers money sent to fund Israel each year or the equipment supplied to the forces of occupation. Silence is complicity!.... to sit idly by and watch from afar while innocents die and make excuses as to why this is permitted makes one as guilty as those that arm the killing machines of the occupation forces
As a human being I am disgusted that people have to live in various places on our planet suffering....... of course it is an utopia idea to believe that we could have such an ideal as world peace but my god people building a wall and annexing of a complete region and collectivelt punishing a nation of people is reminiscent of something Hitler would have done..............
Reminds me of something Friere said - to paraphrase
The worse scenario is when the oppressed become the oppressors.
I was there during the arafat days. he holds alot of the blame for the living conditions of the Palestinians. he died with a net worth of over 500 million. he basically took millions in foreign aid and put it in his pocket while doing nothing for his people.
I was there during the arafat days. he holds alot of the blame for the living conditions of the Palestinians. he died with a net worth of over 500 million. he basically took millions in foreign aid and put it in his pocket while doing nothing for his people.
All leaders and politicians have a part to play in the condition of their country/ region or the lives of their people but to blame solely one individual is not fair - When i say second class citizens i am not totally referring to the poverty levels or the different living conditions of Israel V Palestine ...........I'm thinking more the way that they are institutionally dealt with.
I think that all politicians are bastards - because ultimately to get where they are in life they've had to trend heavily over the backs of others.
Where I was brought up because of the religious back ground I was born into I was automatically treated differently by ' the state' - by those who legislated and made the rules and regulations of that society ................. that however has changed for the better and when I had my own child she was born into born peaceful times and didn't ever have to experience what I did in my childhood............... I firmly believe that is why I can feel some kind of empathy for others living in conflict under what i consider oppressive regimes - i am by no means saying I grew up under the same conditions as is currently in middle east but it was still a horrible thing to have to experience as a small child and into my early teens.
" You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
I promised myself I would not get bogged down into silly conversations with people who seem to not understand the meaning of the word peace.
I challenge anyone to go to the occupied territories as I have and see for themselves what impact the Israeli occupation and terrorism has had on the daily lives of peaceful Palestinians.
I can almost already hear the response of some - " but Israeli citizens are killed also .... what about the Kazzam rockets? "
Resistance for some is the only thing that keeps them willing to live. Having grown up in a completely different conflict situation I'd personally rather resist that live life on my knees.
I would also like to state that in my personal experience I saw that the animals kept by the settlers have more rights than their palestinians neighbours - running water taken from sources within Palestinian land and sprinklers in their gardens of homes for their plants and flowers something that resembles a nice middle class town.
Homes built by Palestinian hands taken from under them by both the Israeli army and these so called 'settlers'.
The inequality is so stark it is makes one physically ill ..... to see people demonised merely for being a Palestinian and left without their farms, homes, land, human rights and often their dignity is not acceptable in a region that boasts to be the only 'democracy' in the middle east. When are people going to wake up and understand that this situation is not helped by the millions of USA tax payers money sent to fund Israel each year or the equipment supplied to the forces of occupation. Silence is complicity!.... to sit idly by and watch from afar while innocents die and make excuses as to why this is permitted makes one as guilty as those that arm the killing machines of the occupation forces
As a human being I am disgusted that people have to live in various places on our planet suffering....... of course it is an utopia idea to believe that we could have such an ideal as world peace but my god people building a wall and annexing of a complete region and collectivelt punishing a nation of people is reminiscent of something Hitler would have done..............
Reminds me of something Friere said - to paraphrase
The worse scenario is when the oppressed become the oppressors.
Ive been. Conditions are deplorable. Wall did not have to happen but it's the only thing that kept suicide bombers out. Both sides to blame.
smartest thing I've heard you say yet. be sure to check out east Jerusalem too, and ask the 30,00 Israelis to leave.
Maybe Jordan should have refrained from using East Jerusalem to bomb Jewish areas in West Jerusalem. Then East Jerusalem will still be Jordan which is what it was pre-67.
So you support the illegal, and brutal, occupation? O.k.
And you support random terror and violence on innocent civillians? Sadly some people only understand violence. It's kind of funny how this person who admits in his/her own thread that they have never been to this country can be so hateful towards it. Maybe there is just something else going on here....
Comments
its clear to see. allow me to break it down for you. since I "have no argument" guess what, my argument is that civilians should never be targets. you disagree.
you say this...
you want to let everyone reading this thread make their own conclusions. ok fine. here it is..... unless Israel moves back to 1967 borders they have no RIGHT to peace and ANYONE (women children or peaceful Israeli citizens) living in disputed land are not deemed innocent and Palestinians have the RIGHT to resist (kill) them.
I got it.
O.k, wise old man, here it is...I said that those civilians living on stolen land can not be considered innocent. Their mere presence is a provocation and they are there as a result of violent and illegal actions and policies. During world war 2 the Nazis moved Germans into houses in Eastern Germany - Bavaria, the Suddetenland, or whatever they called it - and Poland, In order to establish a permanent presence there. They moved into homes that had been forcibly cleared of their original inhabitants who were then sent to live in ghettoes - does this ring a bell? Can these German citizens be considered innocent?
Jews who willingly move into the illegal settlements do so with the knowledge that they are moving onto land stolen by violence and intimidation. If the father of such a family wants to place his wife and children in the line of fire then who's to blame? The settlements represent violence and theft. Can they be considered a viable target by those whose land they have stolen? The answer is 'yes' for anyone able to put themselves in the shoes of a Palestinian. If someone forced you and your family out of your home at gunpoint and then bulldozed your home would you consider those who then moved onto your land innocent? Err, nope. You'd see them as a viable target.
No they didn't. Someone on this thread said he understood that Israeli's living in the illegal settlements are not 'innocent' and Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and their land.
And just in case you've forgotten, 5 times as many Palestinian civilians have been murdered as Israeli's. And seeing as you're an apologist for the occupation....?
Still, nice attempt at muddying the water and getting off topic.
sorry, I do not agree with killing civilians. you do. grow a sac and stop dancing around it.
Oooh, tough guy.
You support the occupation, but you don't agree with killing civilians? Errm, sorry to have to break this to you, but Palestinians haven't been evicted peacefully, or lawfully. Ya see, thousands have been killed. Get it?
Also, I'm wondering what name you'll reappear with after you get banned again Jlew.
I think we should start a thread on it and begin taking bets now.
I don't support the occupation. I don't support Israel killing Palestinian civilians. I don't support hamas killing Israeli civilians.. YOU DO.
I do support Israel's right to exist. I do support Palestine's right to exist. what the exact borders should be? I don't know. thats for them to figure out.
why would I get banned? I'm allowed to voice my opinion as much as anyone else.
not sure if ya got that faaaaaaaar more innocent palestinians are killed by israelis than the other way around. i'm sure you will say Amnesty International are lying to help protect the palestinians but you can easily do a google search for suicide bombings in israel and find an israeli government website stating....actually here it is, it was the first link in the search
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm
Suicide and Other Bombing Attacks in Israel Since the Declaration of Principles (Sept 1993)
2 this year - 9 dead
1 in 2007 - 3 dead
3 in 2006 - 15 dead
10 in 2005 - 24 dead, 3 killed no one
i wonder how many palestinians were killed in those 4 years?
2006
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestinian-death-toll-triples-this-year-430218.html
Palestinian death toll triples this year
he number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza Strip tripled this year, according to an Israeli human rights organisation. B'Tselem said 660 Palestinians had been killed during 2006, including 141 minors. The report claimed that at least 322 of those killed were not fighters.
there, israel surpased the death count several times over for a 4 year period in just 1 fucking year, a year where there were only 3 attacks on israel
yeah, you really care about innocents dying :rolleyes:
2008:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/children-and-civilian-bystanders-gaza-death-toll-20080303
Children and civilian bystanders in Gaza death toll
Israeli military air strikes and artillery attacks on the Gaza Strip during the last few days have killed over 100 Palestinians, including dozens of children and other civilian bystanders. Three Israelis – a civilian killed by a rocket fired by a Palestinian armed group on 27 February and two soldiers – were also killed.
Many of the Palestinians killed were militants involved in attacks on Israel, but others were unarmed civilians taking no part in the hostilities, including some 25 children. The precise number of civilians killed is unclear and difficult to establish.
The Israeli chief of staff is reported to have claimed that 90 percent of those killed were militants, but the UN and other sources, including those in Gaza, suggest that as many as half of the dead were civilians. More than 250 other people, including scores of unarmed civilians, have been injured.
Israeli forces also destroyed houses and property across the Gaza Strip, including at least two medical facilities, before withdrawing on 3 March.
do you fucking care about them destroying 2 medical facilities???? doubt i'll get a real answer from you
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
But you'll defend Israel whenever anyone on this message pit criticizes the occupation, or Israeli atrocities e.t.c. You'll then argue till the cows come home that 'both sides are as bad as each other' in order to pretend that we should just wash our hands of the issue. You pretend to be impartial, but your nothing of the sort. Anyone here who voices any criticism of Israel must be a 'Jihadist' who 'fully supports the killing of Israeli civilians' in your eyes.
Don't think you're fooling anyone.
I'm not defending Israel. I'm defending against killing civilians. something Hamas and you openly support. all I'm saying is that Israeli civilians are not viable targets. you take my posts as being pro occupation or some shit. nice try. just because I do not support hamas targeting civilians, doesnt mean I support Israel.
Hmm, let's see...
I could go on...but It's become boring.
Suffice to say, you don't have much of a chip on your shoulder do you?
have a little too much time or your hands today? sorry if you don't like my style but if you think those posts are bannable then this board would have no members. are you lobbying for being a mod?
disputed land???? wtf is disputed about a lot of it!?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Nice string of quotes there Byrnzie...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Dude we can all read our own news.
That's intelligent.
I wonder if you're a relation of Jlew's/Lazymoon's by any chance?
9 posts and he's straight on my back.
The mods really need to start checking i.p addresses. :rolleyes:
I challenge anyone to go to the occupied territories as I have and see for themselves what impact the Israeli occupation and terrorism has had on the daily lives of peaceful Palestinians.
I can almost already hear the response of some - " but Israeli citizens are killed also .... what about the Kazzam rockets? "
Resistance for some is the only thing that keeps them willing to live. Having grown up in a completely different conflict situation I'd personally rather resist that live life on my knees.
I would also like to state that in my personal experience I saw that the animals kept by the settlers have more rights than their palestinians neighbours - running water taken from sources within Palestinian land and sprinklers in their gardens of homes for their plants and flowers something that resembles a nice middle class town.
Homes built by Palestinian hands taken from under them by both the Israeli army and these so called 'settlers'.
The inequality is so stark it is makes one physically ill ..... to see people demonised merely for being a Palestinian and left without their farms, homes, land, human rights and often their dignity is not acceptable in a region that boasts to be the only 'democracy' in the middle east. When are people going to wake up and understand that this situation is not helped by the millions of USA tax payers money sent to fund Israel each year or the equipment supplied to the forces of occupation. Silence is complicity!.... to sit idly by and watch from afar while innocents die and make excuses as to why this is permitted makes one as guilty as those that arm the killing machines of the occupation forces
As a human being I am disgusted that people have to live in various places on our planet suffering....... of course it is an utopia idea to believe that we could have such an ideal as world peace but my god people building a wall and annexing of a complete region and collectivelt punishing a nation of people is reminiscent of something Hitler would have done..............
Reminds me of something Friere said - to paraphrase
The worse scenario is when the oppressed become the oppressors.
What were you doing out there?
I'm thinking of going out there myself at some point to see first-hand what's happening.
Long story - But was working on a twinning schools project on behalf of Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign. twinning schools in west bank and gaza with schools in Belfast and doing some work with a charity we set up in Belfast called Palestine's Child. We did a bit of everything though and because we'd already a network of people we'd been working alongside in Palestine it was truly an experience.
I don't want to go into too much detail here on board but feel free to email me @ peacefulreturns@yahoo.com if you want information on anything.....
The ISM ( international solidarity Movement) are excellent I didn't go that route however I know a few people who did and loved the experience.
The only thing I will say is its very hard to leave.
smartest thing I've heard you say yet. be sure to check out east Jerusalem too, and ask the 30,00 Israelis to leave.
lmao - I had quite an eye opening to the opinions of many Israelis whilst there - the majority agreed with my opinions - the only thing that they could not get past and refused to accept was the right to return....................... apart from that many should shoulder to shoulder with me as we walked Palestinian children to school through checkpoints and protesting against that horrible dirty big wall.
It's a different reality - I would hate it to my reality and therefore that is why I will always not only support the Palestinians right to a state but also their right to equality and an end to being treated as second class citizens because ultimately there is no excuse for that.........
I was there too and saw the same thing. it all comes down to where you draw the line in the sand. there is no easy answer. people go on and on about the 1967 borders or death. after being there several times, I just do not see those SAME borders returning. so I guess that means death?
I was there during the arafat days. he holds alot of the blame for the living conditions of the Palestinians. he died with a net worth of over 500 million. he basically took millions in foreign aid and put it in his pocket while doing nothing for his people.
All leaders and politicians have a part to play in the condition of their country/ region or the lives of their people but to blame solely one individual is not fair - When i say second class citizens i am not totally referring to the poverty levels or the different living conditions of Israel V Palestine ...........I'm thinking more the way that they are institutionally dealt with.
I think that all politicians are bastards - because ultimately to get where they are in life they've had to trend heavily over the backs of others.
Where I was brought up because of the religious back ground I was born into I was automatically treated differently by ' the state' - by those who legislated and made the rules and regulations of that society ................. that however has changed for the better and when I had my own child she was born into born peaceful times and didn't ever have to experience what I did in my childhood............... I firmly believe that is why I can feel some kind of empathy for others living in conflict under what i consider oppressive regimes - i am by no means saying I grew up under the same conditions as is currently in middle east but it was still a horrible thing to have to experience as a small child and into my early teens.
Ive been. Conditions are deplorable. Wall did not have to happen but it's the only thing that kept suicide bombers out. Both sides to blame.
Maybe Jordan should have refrained from using East Jerusalem to bomb Jewish areas in West Jerusalem. Then East Jerusalem will still be Jordan which is what it was pre-67.
And you support random terror and violence on innocent civillians? Sadly some people only understand violence. It's kind of funny how this person who admits in his/her own thread that they have never been to this country can be so hateful towards it. Maybe there is just something else going on here....
And what keeps the Israeli's out of Palestinian territory? Or is that not relevant in your skewered view of things?