help me understand.....live and let live

ajedigecko

seriously, i need assistance.....many people seem to have this mindset from the threads i have read recently. i try and try, but then events like this occur and it sets me back to the days of the wild west.
i know there are many intelligent people on this website, who can help?

it is the story about a father being nearly beat to death, defending his daughter.

http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=77076

jeffwmartin

My "live and let live" philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle). It boils down to I don't initiate any force against anyone. What it does not mean is that I won't use force at all. Responding to force with force does not violate the principle.

I'm not sure what you are really asking or stating. I took your post as questioning whether it would be moral for the father to defend himself when getting attacked by these thugs? I'll be honest, if one guy comes after me and I have to fight, I will and if he kicks my ass, so be it. But if 7 guys come after me? You are getting into serious lethal intent at that point and I'm would have to up my defensive measures to include my 21 9mm friends.

ajedigecko

jeffwmartin wrote:

My "live and let live" philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle). It boils down to I don't initiate any force against anyone. What it does not mean is that I won't use force at all. Responding to force with force does not violate the principle.

I'm not sure what you are really asking or stating. I took your post as questioning whether it would be moral for the father to defend himself when getting attacked by these thugs? I'll be honest, if one guy comes after me and I have to fight, I will and if he kicks my ass, so be it. But if 7 guys come after me? You are getting into serious lethal intent at that point and I'm would have to up my defensive measures to include my 21 9mm friends.

i guess it is a more complicated question than originally stated.

i simply can not hold "live and let live" when i know violence such as this goes on. i mean, they did nothing to me, why should i care? chances are they did nothing to anyone on this website, why should they care? in the end "live and let live" allows the "bad" people to control the environment we live in, from my humble view.

anyway.....events like this scare me and i do not get scared about much.

polaris

are you saying there are people who say these aholes should be let go?

farfromglorified

ajedigecko wrote:

in the end "live and let live" allows the "bad" people to control the environment we live in, from my humble view.

You've got it backwards. Bad things, like what you posted, happen when people don't live and let live. To suggest that one shouldn't "live and let live" because of bad events is to suggest that you don't actually see these events as bad.

NMyTree

I believe everyone has a right to defend themselves and their family/friends.

I don't believe in physically attacking anyone unless it's in self-defense.

If someone comes at me, then all bets are off.


Eight on one and they continued to kick him in the face/head after he was down?

These pieces of sh*t deserve a nice long prison term and when they get out of jail; they should pay for every penny of medical bills this victim will have.

Hell, they should confiscate everything they own, before they go to jail, put it up for auction and the money should go to the victim.

I noticed the victim's name was never mentioned, nor a picture of him.

Wonder if he was a white guy.

We all know if it had been eight white men doing this to one black man; this would be a national ...maybe international news story.

ajedigecko

farfromglorified wrote:

You've got it backwards. Bad things, like what you posted, happen when people don't live and let live. To suggest that one shouldn't "live and let live" because of bad events is to suggest that you don't actually see these events as bad.

i think i understand but i am confused by the last sentence. i just thought that people who follow live and let live are accepting of all behavior as long as it is not hurting anyone.
then an event like the posted event happens so should they be dealt with firmly?

ajedigecko

polaris wrote:

are you saying there are people who say these aholes should be let go?

you will be surprised in the following weeks or months, about how many excuses will be created for these wholes of ass. the list will long and plentiful and we have heard them all before.
there are many people with lists of problems....but they do not act in such manner.

ambrasjes

Live and let live definition :
-believing that other people should be allowed to live their lives in the way that they want to.
-to accept other people as they are, although they may have a different way of life.

That doesn't mean these punks can get away with this. This principle stops when innocent beings are getting hurt.

I was at valley fair a couple of weeks ago. Something like this could happen to anyone, anywhere.

Bystanders are afraid to be beaten up also.
The more bystanders you have, the more they hesitate to react because they all wait for someone else to do something.

Looks like they made bail! They are roaming around in my city again.

Man, your country has issues! But so does mine...

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=518548
Charges of third-degree felony assault were filed against Darris D. Evans, 20, of Brooklyn Park; Derry D. Evans, 19, Minneapolis; Devondre Evans-Lewis, 18, of Columbia Heights; Terry L. Arnold, 22, of Brooklyn Park; Andrew D. Shannon, 19, of Minneapolis; Anthony C. Gildersleeve, 20, Edina; and the unidentified juvenile.

Bail was set at $40,000 to $60,000 each and all have posted bail bonds, officials said

The Scott County Attorney says several of the men have criminal histories and they are all from the Twin Cities metro area.

Jeanie

Ok, well I doubt I'll be able to make you understand, because I've yet to be able to fully understand why people do these things myself.

In terms of live and let live, I was involved in a similar incident (although in terms of injury to the main victim, not as bad depending on how you look at it) about 15 years ago and I can honestly say with regard to the perpertrators I don't think live and let live anymore. I'm not sure what I think, but it's not that. Sometimes I hope every day of his (the perpertrator's) shitty little life is miserable and I know that's not particularly big of me but I can't deny I think it sometimes, and sometimes I feel sorry for him that he goes into the world that way and much of the time I wish there was some way for people that do these things to have some kind of epiphany, where the weight of their hideous actions finally hits them full force and it knocks them down and completely overwhelms them, but I doubt that will happen either. So mostly I don't think about it at all, which is difficult given the huge impact his bad behaviour had on my life AND when I think of the massive impact it had on the man he beat to a pulp right before my eyes, well I don't know how or even if he has been able to forget. I do know that I don't forgive. Whether that's right or wrong is of no consequence to me really. Somethings cannot be forgiven, much as I wish it were not so.

So I'd say that this family will be changed by this in ways that may not become apparent for years to come, both good and bad.
This little girl will always know that her Daddy will do whatever it takes to protect her and this father can know that he has done the right thing no matter what the cost.

And as for the perpertrators? Well I don't care what kind of shitty little lives they've lived, or how bad things have been for them growing up, I don't care if they have sick relatives, if they were abused as children, if they have some kind of low IQ problem, drug problems, come from low socio-economic backgrounds, I don't care if they're a minority, or purple, or male etc, etc, etc. I hope they suffer the full consequences of their actions, be that from the full force of the law or the serendipity of the universe.

ajedigecko

Jeanie wrote:

Ok, well I doubt I'll be able to make you understand, because I've yet to be able to fully understand why people do these things myself.

In terms of live and let live, I was involved in a similar incident (although in terms of injury to the main victim, not as bad depending on how you look at it) about 15 years ago and I can honestly say with regard to the perpertrators I don't think live and let live anymore. I'm not sure what I think, but it's not that. Sometimes I hope every day of his (the perpertrator's) shitty little life is miserable and I know that's not particularly big of me but I can't deny I think it sometimes, and sometimes I feel sorry for him that he goes into the world that way and much of the time I wish there was some way for people that do these things to have some kind of epiphany, where the weight of their hideous actions finally hits them full force and it knocks them down and completely overwhelms them, but I doubt that will happen either. So mostly I don't think about it at all, which is difficult given the huge impact his bad behaviour had on my life AND when I think of the massive impact it had on the man he beat to a pulp right before my eyes, well I don't know how or even if he has been able to forget. I do know that I don't forgive. Whether that's right or wrong is of no consequence to me really. Somethings cannot be forgiven, much as I wish it were not so.

So I'd say that this family will be changed by this in ways that may not become apparent for years to come, both good and bad.
This little girl will always know that her Daddy will do whatever it takes to protect her and this father can know that he has done the right thing no matter what the cost.

And as for the perpertrators? Well I don't care what kind of shitty little lives they've lived, or how bad things have been for them growing up, I don't care if they have sick relatives, if they were abused as children, if they have some kind of low IQ problem, drug problems, come from low socio-economic backgrounds, I don't care if they're a minority, or purple, or male etc, etc, etc. I hope they suffer the full consequences of their actions, be that from the full force of the law or the serendipity of the universe.

i have much respect for you, thank you for telling it as you see it. i myself have difficulty forgiving such horrible acts. it is one of many major flaws i own.
strength to you.

Anon

ajedigecko wrote:

you will be surprised in the following weeks or months, about how many excuses will be created for these wholes of ass. the list will long and plentiful and we have heard them all before.
there are many people with lists of problems....but they do not act in such manner.

i agree. there are no excuses for that behaviour. they acted like animals.

Jeanie

ajedigecko wrote:

i have much respect for you, thank you for telling it as you see it. i myself have difficulty forgiving such horrible acts. it is one of many major flaws i own.
strength to you.

Thank you, and I you.

The thing I realized with this kind of thing is that once someone has done something this hideous to another human being, you cannot undo it, and by inflicting the same or similar on them, really doesn't release you from the episode. I understand that's not for everyone and that justice, or revenge or retribution can and does offer some peace for some victims, it just doesn't do that for me.
Even jailing these men will not undo what they have done to that father, to that family and most likely will only make them resentful and more hardened and who really needs them to be more objectionable than they are already? I strongly doubt that they will ever come to regret or be remorseful for what they have done, simply because they were of the mindset to do it in the first place.
The perpetrator of the incident I was involved in was charged by the police and the case did go to court and he was sentenced to 3 months jail, (over Christmas, I took some comfort in that.) but to me it in no way seemed a fair punishment for what he had done, simply because what he did affected so many people for YEARS. He had a life changing negative impact on at least 6 people, that changed the way they lived their lives forever and I know for a fact he got out of jail and was back doing similar things because, in one of those strange coincidences, I discovered 10 years later he'd beaten up a friend of my fathers. So I'd say that he'd set the pattern of his behaviour early in life and still hadn't learned to be any different. Frankly I have to wonder if there will ever be a day of reckoning for him, it seems he has been able to continue, unfettered for a very long time. The only avenue open to me really is to try to wipe his very existence from my life and memory but it's really not that easy.

I hope this family are able to survive and grow from this incident, that it doesn't dodge them forever and I only wish that this group of thugs could have some small moment of realization of the gravity of their actions.

g under p

I went t that site and read about Father beaten protecting his daughter and this indeed was a scary, hideous crime.

I have a 12 year old daughter and believe you me I'm going to say something and say something calculated in not escalating the situation. However if that escalation was unavoidable then I'm laying one or both before the cowards could call in their buddies.

As I read the question was asked why anyone tried to stop or intercede? Well, if I was a bystander and seeing that these hoods appeared to be cowards I would've yell out an urgent P-O-L-I-C-E! Then watch them scatter like roaches one of them is still on the run. Check out some of the posts from the peeps in Minnesota.

Peace