want to see Guantanamo closed? make a video!

chime

Hope&Anger wrote:

Have there been any reports from neutral observers? Or even from the US military about improvements?

Here is the UN report. It's quite a long read. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/16_02_06_un_guantanamo.pdf and they weren't able to visit why is explained in the first section of the report.

jlew24asu

Hope&Anger wrote:

Do you have any evidence of this? I just read an article that says the Red Cross doesn't comment on conditions they find, except to the government holding the detainees.

Have there been any reports from neutral observers? Or even from the US military about improvements?

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/politics/article/0,1406,KNS_356_4988286,00.html


I also saw an abc news special that toured the base. that was were I really absed my comments on.

I have never been there, so I really dont know for sure. nor will I claim to

redrock

A lot of these were just 'roped' in. Happened to live in the village or nearby village. One was brought in whilst taking his child to school, etc. The purpose of Guantanamo (apparently) was for 'intelligence' and really, the 'soldiers' captured were ground soldiers... nothing worthwhile intelligence wise and certainly no threat to the grand scheme of things. There is still no comprehensive list of names of all detainees.

On the other hand the 'real' terrorist suspects such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were never sent to Guantanamo, instead they were either sent to these obscure prisons in countries where torture was allowed (secret CIA prisons) so they could be 'interrogated'. It is only recently that Kahlid Sheikh Mohammed (and a number of others) has been transferred to Guantanamo.

redrock

jlew24asu wrote:

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/politics/article/0,1406,KNS_356_4988286,00.html


I also saw an abc news special that toured the base. that was were I really absed my comments on.

I have never been there, so I really dont know for sure. nor will I claim to

Bush had to let the red cross in after the first images of detainees arriving in Guantanamo were shown on TV. He realised his mistake and 'staged' tours. No one was allowed any interaction with prisonners, the 'tours' were very well controlled (no going away on your own). No 'surprise' visits allowed.... 'tours' were given only on request with enough notice.

So not really the way to see things 'as they are'...

PaperPlates

Hope&Anger wrote:

Again, how on earth do you know this?

Some of these guys were fighting with the Northern Alliance -- who were on our side. But they were standing on a field with a rifle and they got arrested -- BUT THEY WERE ON OUR SIDE.

And some of them got ratted out by people in the Northern Alliance who were pissed at them, but they had nothing to do with fighting Americans.

The bottom line -- you don't know; I don't know; we don't know. And that's why we have trials -- to find out!!!

You say we dont know, you dont know, i dont know, but right above that you make claims that I cant see being anymore provable than their guilt. You ask him, but I ask you, how on earth do you know that. Sounds like bullshit propaganda you've been fed. Sorry. I doubt there will be many if any people released from there who had absolutely NO ties to some terrorist group.

Puck78

PaperPlates wrote:

I doubt there will be many if any people released from there who had absolutely NO ties to some terrorist group.

prove it. In less than 4 years.

Hope&Anger

PaperPlates wrote:

You say we dont know, you dont know, i dont know, but right above that you make claims that I cant see being anymore provable than their guilt. You ask him, but I ask you, how on earth do you know that.

This is the point -- I DON'T KNOW. That's what trials are for -- to figure out what happened, whether people are terrorists or whether they're just goatherders who wound up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Maybe you don't remember this given all the bullshit propoganda that you've been fed, but what makes America great is that we give people trials and we consider them innocent until proven guilty and we give them a chance to defend themselves.

PaperPlates wrote:

Sorry. I doubt there will be many if any people released from there who had absolutely NO ties to some terrorist group.

This is only the most recent story --

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061012/ap_on_re_as/afghan_guantanamo

And some more:

http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=162610

Here's another:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002473.html

Here are some more:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/19/terror/main1517015.shtml

Shit, it was even reported on Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206441,00.html?sPage=fnc.specialsections/waronterror

Ah, the gift of reading -- it's a beautiful thing.

Puck78

PaperPlates wrote:

Sorry. I doubt there will be many if any people released from there who had absolutely NO ties to some terrorist group.

Moazzam Begg, just to name one.

PaperPlates

Hope&Anger wrote:

This is the point -- I DON'T KNOW. That's what trials are for -- to figure out what happened, whether people are terrorists or whether they're just goatherders who wound up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Maybe you don't remember this given all the bullshit propoganda that you've been fed, but what makes America great is that we give people trials and we consider them innocent until proven guilty and we give them a chance to defend themselves.



This is only the most recent story --

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061012/ap_on_re_as/afghan_guantanamo

And some more:

http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=162610

Here's another:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002473.html

Here are some more:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/19/terror/main1517015.shtml

Shit, it was even reported on Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206441,00.html?sPage=fnc.specialsections/waronterror

Ah, the gift of reading -- it's a beautiful thing.

You really believe every thing you read? Because I don't. You can read almost anything on the internet. Sorry. And to the other guy, idk what you mean? Prove it in 4 years? Prove what?

I doubt there were many people who had NO ties to a terrorist group. That could mean being the uncle who housed a nephew for 2 days while on the run for all I care. Detain them. POW's dont get trials. They usually get executed, in countries with people much like the one's we are currently fighting. What do you think Iran would or any other one of those nations will do with soldiers of ours they capture?

Goatherders. Wrong place wrong time. Pfftt. Sure.

Hope&Anger

PaperPlates wrote:

I doubt there were many people who had NO ties to a terrorist group. That could mean being the uncle who housed a nephew for 2 days while on the run for all I care. Detain them. POW's dont get trials. They usually get executed, in countries with people much like the one's we are currently fighting.

Yes, and this is what makes "us" better than "them" -- or at least it used to. And that's not just me talking. That's John McCain and Colin Powell and lots of officers who are running this war.

I don't want to be Sadaam Hussein's Iraq. I want to be America.

PaperPlates wrote:

Goatherders. Wrong place wrong time. Pfftt. Sure.

So who do you listen to? You don't believe any evidence I've produced. Who's telling you that these guys are dangerous terrorists, and why do you believe them?

Vedderlution_Baby

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,942310,00.html


Atleast try and get the fucking kids outta there.

PaperPlates

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,942310,00.html


Atleast try and get the fucking kids outta there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm

............A new generation of children, Palestinian boys aged between 12 and 15 years old, is growing up amid conflict and violence. ..............
Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution." The boys are told that it is good to kill and good to die. The boys are shown pictures of those who have already died in the conflict with Israel.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/11/c92d1650-281e-4bea-8571-7b7079e0a43e.html

"it appears that a boy carried out a suicide bombing in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. The use of children as combatants is not uncommon, but this may be the first case of a youthful suicide bomber in the Iraq conflict.


Washington, 2 November 2005 (RFE/RL) -- The reports from Kirkuk are sketchy, but two accounts say a child wearing a belt with explosives carried out the attack near the car of Brigadier Khattab Iris Abdullah, the city's police commander.

Abdullah is reported to have been seriously wounded. The attacker -- in one report described as 13 years old -- was killed.

If these reports are accurate, it appears to be the first instance of so young a suicide bomber in the Iraq war, according to Jo Becker, the advocacy director for the Children's Rights Division of Human Rights Watch (HRW). "We know that as the war has progressed, there are more and more children who have become involved with the insurgent forces," she said. "I haven't heard of other suicide attacks by kids, but I can't be 100 percent certain."

http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117930696.html?categoryid=31&cs=1

"One of the few agents based in Lebanon to escape the 1983 attack by a suicide bomber on the American Embassy, Baer took it as his mission to find out who was responsible and why. He traces the origins of such bombings to Iran, to a 13-year-old soldier who sacrificed himself to blow up a tank. Baer subsequently points to the Ayatollah Khomeini as the man who provided the idea for the cult. By reimagining the Iran-Iraq War as a re-enactment of an ancient religious massacre that consecrated its Shiite victims as holy martyrs headed to paradise, Khomeini gave soldiers a reason to go into battle welcoming death."

Puck78

PaperPlates wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm

............A new generation of children, Palestinian boys aged between 12 and 15 years old, is growing up amid conflict and violence. ..............
Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution." The boys are told that it is good to kill and good to die. The boys are shown pictures of those who have already died in the conflict with Israel.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/11/c92d1650-281e-4bea-8571-7b7079e0a43e.html

"it appears that a boy carried out a suicide bombing in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. The use of children as combatants is not uncommon, but this may be the first case of a youthful suicide bomber in the Iraq conflict.


Washington, 2 November 2005 (RFE/RL) -- The reports from Kirkuk are sketchy, but two accounts say a child wearing a belt with explosives carried out the attack near the car of Brigadier Khattab Iris Abdullah, the city's police commander.

Abdullah is reported to have been seriously wounded. The attacker -- in one report described as 13 years old -- was killed.

If these reports are accurate, it appears to be the first instance of so young a suicide bomber in the Iraq war, according to Jo Becker, the advocacy director for the Children's Rights Division of Human Rights Watch (HRW). "We know that as the war has progressed, there are more and more children who have become involved with the insurgent forces," she said. "I haven't heard of other suicide attacks by kids, but I can't be 100 percent certain."

http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117930696.html?categoryid=31&cs=1

"One of the few agents based in Lebanon to escape the 1983 attack by a suicide bomber on the American Embassy, Baer took it as his mission to find out who was responsible and why. He traces the origins of such bombings to Iran, to a 13-year-old soldier who sacrificed himself to blow up a tank. Baer subsequently points to the Ayatollah Khomeini as the man who provided the idea for the cult. By reimagining the Iran-Iraq War as a re-enactment of an ancient religious massacre that consecrated its Shiite victims as holy martyrs headed to paradise, Khomeini gave soldiers a reason to go into battle welcoming death."

how does this fit with the discussion about Guantanamo? we well stated that if people are guilty they must be processed. What we are arguing for is that those people are locked there for more than 4 years without a trial, and being tortured.
Your post doesn't fit at all with the conversation: if a teenager is involved into attacks he can be arrested under minor laws, and have a trial for that, not been kept and tortured in a limbo for such a long time...

PaperPlates

Puck78 wrote:

how does this fit with the discussion about Guantanamo? we well stated that if people are guilty they must be processed. What we are arguing for is that those people are locked there for more than 4 years without a trial, and being tortured.
Your post doesn't fit at all with the conversation: if a teenager is involved into attacks he can be arrested under minor laws, and have a trial for that, not been kept and tortured in a limbo for such a long time...

did you read the post above mine? Calling for the release of innocent children? Or do you just search for my posts and automatically disagree?

Puck78

PaperPlates wrote:

did you read the post above mine? Calling for the release of innocent children? Or do you just search for my posts and automatically disagree?

he was referring to children closed in guantanamo, not to children in palestine or in iraq and caught in their acts. Did YOU read it?
(notice your sentence "release of innocent children": if they're innocent let's leave them there, right?)

PaperPlates

Puck78 wrote:

he was referring to children closed in guantanamo, not to children in palestine or in iraq and caught in their acts. Did YOU read it?
(notice your sentence "release of innocent children": if they're innocent let's leave them there, right?)

I believe that my point was, as you well know, that many of the "innocent" kids being held, are most likely no more innocent than Osama himself. Whatever wacko islamic country they hail from, their children are and have been raised to be soldiers. Against us. You know, that damn martyrdom thing. Ill shed not one tear for them. They would dance in the streets if their wishes came true.

Puck78

PaperPlates wrote:

I believe that my point was, as you well know, that many of the "innocent" kids being held, are most likely no more innocent than Osama himself. Whatever wacko islamic country they hail from, their children are and have been raised to be soldiers. Against us. You know, that damn martyrdom thing. Ill shed not one tear for them. They would dance in the streets if their wishes came true.

you're wrong. Those children guilty for having committed something are jailed for that. They are not left for all that time in that torture limbo called guantanamo.

PS: in the USA and other western countries people don't literally dance in the streets, but they approve happily wars like the one in Iraq. In that way they "dance" over the civilians killed in such wars...

PaperPlates

Puck78 wrote:

you're wrong. Those children guilty for having committed something are jailed for that. They are not left for all that time in that torture limbo called guantanamo.

PS: in the USA and other western countries people don't literally dance in the streets, but they approve happily wars like the one in Iraq. In that way they "dance" over the civilians killed in such wars...

Okay..............next report of a dead islamic radical I hear, I'm dancing a jig.