Why Religion Must Remain A Part Of The World...

decides2dream

fanch75 wrote:

At the end of the day, the equation is very much binary. God either exists or doesn't; God can't "kinda" exist.

I agree that we all have different paths; I was just making the general statement about total blatant selfish hedonism, folks who add nothing to society.

and i say, some of those "blatant, selfish hedonists" may very well be sitting next to you in church on sunday. point is, faith alone has nothing to do with that....and in regards to the necessity of religion in this world, i personally don't see that as adding any support for the idea that it is a need, and not merely a want.

sure, the concept of a god existing or not existing is a whole other issue, and as i've said....he/she/it could easily exist, or not exist, without *religion* being, would make no difference.

it's not about the 'different paths' per se....but blatant selfishness can exist amongst all walks of life, the supposed believers/religious as well as the non-believers/non-religious. just my general statement there.

and yes, either god(s) exist or not....there's no inbetween, but there is plenty of inbetweens in being a good, faith-filled person and being a good, non-faith person. lots and lots of grey and co-mingling there. belief in a god does not = selflessness/goodness/adding to society.

fanch75

decides2dream wrote:

and i say, some of those "blatant, selfish hedonists" may very well be sitting next to you in church on sunday. point is, faith alone has nothing to do with that....and in regards to the necessity of religion in this world, i personally don't see that as adding any support for the idea that it is a need, and not merely a want.

sure, the concept of a god existing or not existing is a whole other issue, and as i've said....he/she/it could easily exist, or not exist, without *religion* being, would make no difference.

it's not about the 'different paths' per se....but blatant selfishness can exist amongst all walks of life, the supposed believers/religious as well as the non-believers/non-religious. just my general statement there.

and yes, either god(s) exist or not....there's no inbetween, but there is plenty of inbetweens in being a good, faith-filled person and being a good, non-faith person. lots and lots of grey and co-mingling there. belief in a god does not = selflessness/goodness/adding to society.

I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father.

WMA

I see religion as a tool originally meant to keep things peaceful, but got more and more corrupt as time went on.

When you get tons of people needing to live side by side, it is probably a good idea to somehow motivate them to get along with each other. How about making them believe there is something watching them every minute of every day to make sure they don't do any bad things? If they do they will suffer for eternity, and if they follow the rules they will be in paradise for eternity.

As population grew they needed more space to live though, and their neighbors probably didn't like that too much. So they expanded things a little bit and said it was ok to do bad things sometimes for certain reasons, and you wouldn't be held accountable personally as God agreed with them.

Finally some control freaks were in charge and they started putting some very specific rules in that they felt were the way everybody had to live because they were right.

And it continued on from there.

Of course at the time I'm sure literacy was very low, and it wouldn't be hard to fool a large percentage of people with a 'holy man' telling them what was expected. Perhaps they even required it be taught to children so it'd take hold completely very quickly.

That chain of events isn't that hard to believe in my opinion. I was just thinking about ways it could have started without any supernatural stuff going on. No offense meant to anyone.

eden

fanch75 wrote:

At the end of the day, the equation is very much binary. God either exists or doesn't; God can't "kinda" exist.

I agree that we all have different paths; I was just making the general statement about total blatant selfish hedonism, folks who add nothing to society.

"Binary"...nice word usage. Im proud of you J.

Btw- you make very valid points, some people are just too busy reading themselves talk to actually read what YOU said.

lucylespian

As FAnch says, God can't "kinda" exist.
Another way of looking at this is that a contradiction cannot truly exist.
If a contradiction seems to exist, then really, you just havn't thought about the problem enough, or you lack information.
So disproving the existence of God is actually not that hard, if a contradiction must stand to allow for his existence.
Personally I think teh disparity between the age of the Earth as calculated by the Bible, and the age as calculated by ANY other means, including that of other religions as well as science, serves the purpose quite nicely.
No doubt someone will argue that God created the other religions to test our faith, yet again !!!!!!!!!

catefrances

fanch75 wrote:

.....

I also think that non-belief in God (Allah, the God of Abraham, the Yamcumber, or however you wish to refer to Him) is comforting for those who don't want to be accountable for anything. I don't want commitment, I don't want kids, I don't want to help anyone or do anything good for society, I just want to travel and do things, it's all about me and what I want to do = non-belief.

but again, i can't prove it.

i am an atheist and i am accountable. i am accountable to myself. and only myself. it is my purpose in life to lead a righteous life. there is nothing hedonistic or egomaniacal in my life nor in the way i choose to live it.
true, i can't fathom how people have faith in any God, but that is their choice. just because i am irreligious doesn't mean i am unaccountable. and quite frankly i have known people who do believe in God and yet somehow believe that they do not have to account for their actions because it is their belief that their sins will be forgiven. i, on the other hand choose not to sin(for want of a better word) in the first place.

decides2dream

eden wrote:

Btw- you make very valid points, some people are just too busy reading themselves talk to actually read what YOU said.

yes, valid points. don't think the 'validity' was questioned. one CAN see/understand/comprehend the validity of an opinion/point of view, and yet, STILL disagree. yea amazing, but it can be done. anyway, i thought that's what we did here....share ideas/opinions/differing perspectives...and discuss them, point and counter-point, etc. i thought that's what it was all about.



fanch, follow the force. :cool:
and sure, absolutely...follow your own beliefs, i think we all need to find our own path. and sure, i think for many faith/belief is quite a positive force for them and good for them....and for others they find a different path just as valid for themselves, and we ALL can be valuable contributors to society and the world at large...and yea, religion doesn't *have* to exist for any of it. *God* can exist just as well with or without organized religion....he/she/it would still be there for the faithfull. so yes, i still don't see it as a *must* in the world, that was all.

catefrances wrote:

i am an atheist and i am accountable. i am accountable to myself. and only myself. it is my purpose in life to lead a righteous life. there is nothing hedonistic or egomaniacal in my life nor in the way i choose to live it.
true, i can't fathom how people have faith in any God, but that is their choice. just because i am irreligious doesn't mean i am unaccountable. and quite frankly i have known people who do believe in God and yet somehow believe that they do not have to account for their actions because it is their belief that their sins will be forgiven. i, on the other hand choose not to sin(for want of a better word) in the first place.

exactly, and thank you...that's what i was saying above. while i am not an atheist, i just think the idea of only the 'believers/faithful' as being accountable, non-selfish, etc...is just misguided at best. belief/non-belief and being accountable and a positive contributor to the world is not mutually exclusive.

eden

decides2dream wrote:

yes, valid points. don't think the 'validity' was questioned. one CAN see/understand/comprehend the validity of an opinion/point of view, and yet, STILL disagree. yea amazing, but it can be done. anyway, i thought that's what we did here....share ideas/opinions/differing perspectives...and discuss them, point and counter-point, etc. i thought that's what it was all about.



fanch, follow the force. :cool:
and sure, absolutely...follow your own beliefs, i think we all need to find our own path. and sure, i think for many faith/belief is quite a positive force for them and good for them....and for others they find a different path just as valid for themselves, and we ALL can be valuable contributors to society and the world at large...and yea, religion doesn't *have* to exist for any of it. *God* can exist just as well with or without organized religion....he/she/it would still be there for the faithfull. so yes, i still don't see it as a *must* in the world, that was all.








exactly, and thank you...that's what i was saying above. while i am not an atheist, i just think the idea of only the 'believers/faithful' as being accountable, non-selfish, etc...is just misguided at best. belief/non-belief and being accountable and a positive contributor to the world is not mutually exclusive.

Im tired now.

Ahnimus

fanch75 wrote:

I also think that non-belief in God (Allah, the God of Abraham, the Yamcumber, or however you wish to refer to Him) is comforting for those who don't want to be accountable for anything. I don't want commitment, I don't want kids, I don't want to help anyone or do anything good for society, I just want to travel and do things, it's all about me and what I want to do = non-belief.

I don't mean to flog a dead horse here. But the magnitude of what you are saying is that you discriminate against non-believers. You view atheists as pathetic people that can't control themselves. Maybe not in every case, but that distinction is there in your mind. That alone proves my point that religion has negative affects on our society. It encourages discrimination, in many more cases than just this. A person might be non-discriminate to any other minority, but still have this distinction about atheists and pass judgement on a person. I know from first hand experience, from the closest of family and friends. People persistently tell me that I will eventually "Learn" and realize the "truth". Like I am somehow ignorant and they are enlightened. Unfortunately faith in god is such a hardcore belief that it ultimately has that effect. Atheists that believe in nothing have nothing to believe strongly in. I don't even consider a person's beliefs as a substantial part of their character. Unless they somehow discriminate based on them.

I hear this all the time "we are good Christian folk". I'm not good because I don't believe in Christ? Or being Christian is somehow an adjective emphasizing good positively?

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't mean to flog a dead horse here. But the magnitude of what you are saying is that you discriminate against non-believers. You view atheists as pathetic people that can't control themselves. Maybe not in every case, but that distinction is there in your mind. That alone proves my point that religion has negative affects on our society. It encourages discrimination, in many more cases than just this. A person might be non-discriminate to any other minority, but still have this distinction about atheists and pass judgement on a person. I know from first hand experience, from the closest of family and friends. People persistently tell me that I will eventually "Learn" and realize the "truth". Like I am somehow ignorant and they are enlightened. Unfortunately faith in god is such a hardcore belief that it ultimately has that effect. Atheists that believe in nothing have nothing to believe strongly in. I don't even consider a person's beliefs as a substantial part of their character. Unless they somehow discriminate based on them.

I hear this all the time "we are good Christian folk". I'm not good because I don't believe in Christ? Or being Christian is somehow an adjective emphasizing good positively?

can you clarify this statement for me please?

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

can you clarify this statement for me please?

Well, if you are an atheist. Haven't you had experiences with people thinking differently about you?

Even as the example of the pope saying Canada needs to stop abortion and homosexual marriage. That is directly negative to people that hold alternate beliefs. A homosexual couple certainly would not like it. A person, such as myself, that wishes to allow abortion doesn't like it. And the pope really has nothing to do with our politics anyway. Somehow since he is the supreme judge of a religious doctrine then he is wiser.

Of course you know from conversing with me that I have a different perspective on homosexuality. I feel it's rooted in science though and I certainly don't discriminate against homosexuality. I'm simply suggesting an explanation. As the case with religion is homosexuality is evil and banned by God. The significance difference being, my belief system is subject to new evidence, religion is not. That means, if we are trying to come to a level of understanding or tolerance, I believe atheism is more successful.

Video: Atheists are not fools

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Well, if you are an atheist. Haven't you had experiences with people thinking differently about you?

yeah and the fuckers still want to offer prayers for my eternal soul.
the most amusing thing though is when i tell them i don't doubt the existence of jesus and that i do actually read the bible. they don't understand how i can still be an atheist. but i understand and that's all that matters.

i read that statement both ways and i still was unsure of the context. i thought i got it but then i thought it best to ask you instead of jumping down your throat. turns out i did read it correctly.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

yeah and the fuckers still want to offer prayers for my eternal soul.
the most amusing thing though is when i tell them i don't doubt the existence of jesus and that i do actually read the bible. they don't understand how i can still be an atheist. but i understand and that's all that matters.

i read that statement both ways and i still was unsure of the context. i thought i got it but then i thought it best to ask you instead of jumping down your throat. turns out i did read it correctly.

Yea, I attended church every sunday at the Faith Lutheran church when I was growing up. My parents weren't exactly tight christians, but they wanted to teach their kids about Christ. When I was a teenager I went through confirmation. I actually went to church when I could have been out with my friends. I studied parts of the bible with my study group. I ate the bread and the wine. I lit the candles. I've watched numerous videos and read articles arguing the points of Christianity. Every single person in my family that I am concsiously aware of is Christian, some of them quite seriously.

Why do people automatically assume atheists just aren't learned?

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, I attended church every sunday at the Faith Lutheran church when I was growing up. My parents weren't exactly tight christians, but they wanted to teach their kids about Christ. When I was a teenager I went through confirmation. I actually went to church when I could have been out with my friends. I studied parts of the bible with my study group. I ate the bread and the wine. I lit the candles. I've watched numerous videos and read articles arguing the points of Christianity. Every single person in my family that I am concsiously aware of is Christian, some of them quite seriously.

Why do people automatically assume atheists just aren't learned?

i was christened catholic, went through confirmation and did my first holy communion. none of this through any choice of mine. and look how well i turned out.

because it's easier to condemn someone for ignorance.

redrock

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, I attended church every sunday at the Faith Lutheran church when I was growing up. My parents weren't exactly tight christians, but they wanted to teach their kids about Christ. When I was a teenager I went through confirmation. I actually went to church when I could have been out with my friends. I studied parts of the bible with my study group. I ate the bread and the wine. I lit the candles. I've watched numerous videos and read articles arguing the points of Christianity. Every single person in my family that I am concsiously aware of is Christian, some of them quite seriously.

Why do people automatically assume atheists just aren't learned?

I did all of that and even sang in the choir and.... I'm atheist! Atheist doesn't mean you don't believe in anything and you are not accountable. I believe in myself and others, I am accountable to myself and others (whether I touch them personally or not). As I said before, not believing in a god/not following a religion does not lessen your spirituality.
Why does fanch assume that god fearing people more accountable than others? Is it because, like in the christian faith, there is a threat of hell (eternal damnation) if you don't 'behave' or a reward (Heaven) if you do? Is this like a bribe? But then again.. isn't god all forgiving? So what accountability is there?

My mother who is a catholic even said my daughter would be damned because I didn't have her baptised.... how ignorant and intolerant is that?

catefrances

redrock wrote:

My mother who is a catholic even said my daughter would be damned because I didn't have her baptised.... how ignorant and intolerant is that?

does our mother still think that?


not surprisingly none of my children are baptised. i think for a lot for people it's automatic. have children. have baptism. perhaps the anabaptists have it right. grow up. know what you're getting yourself into. make an informed choice. get baptised. or not.

redrock

catefrances wrote:

does our mother still think that?


not surprisingly none of my children are baptised. i think for a lot for people it's automatic. have children. have baptism. perhaps the anabaptists have it right. grow up. know what you're getting yourself into. make an informed choice. get baptised. or not.

She probably does but dares not say it anymore. My parents live in Brussels (and us in London). After saying such a vile thing (vile because she sincerely believes it, even if I don't), among others on a similar subject, I cancelled a visit we were going to make. Since then, she might slip in things like: 'I'll die knowing my grand-daughter was not baptised - it will be held against me because I didn't do anything about it.' or 'She's the only one in the family (extensive french family) that's not baptised - it's shameful'... you get my drift. I don't listen to her and don't bother answering.... it ends up in arguements!!!!! Mothers!!!!!

catefrances

redrock wrote:

She probably does but dares not say it anymore. My parents live in Brussels (and us in London). After saying such a vile thing (vile because she sincerely believes it, even if I don't), among others on a similar subject, I cancelled a visit we were going to make. Since then, she might slip in things like: 'I'll die knowing my grand-daughter was not baptised - it will be held against me because I didn't do anything about it.' or 'She's the only one in the family (extensive french family) that's not baptised - it's shameful'... you get my drift. I don't listen to her and don't bother answering.... it ends up in arguements!!!!! Mothers!!!!!

hey!!! i'm a mother.

redrock

Me too (obviously!)!!!! Just hope I don't end up like mine!!!!!

catefrances

redrock wrote:

Me too (obviously!)!!!! Just hope I don't end up like mine!!!!!

i think i'm safe on that one.
after 20 years i doubt i'll ever be a mother like anyone but myself.