Americanism

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited September 2007 in A Moving Train
I used this term loosely in a discussion with Surferdude. But now I'm getting to the bottom of what it actually means.

The term Anti-Americanism is used quite frequently and is recognized as describing something in reality. However, in order for one to practice Anti-Americanism, there must be something first called Americanism.

Might Americanism be American Exceptionalism - the belief that America and Americans are inherently superior to other nations and nationalities.

Or might it refer to the definition used by the Roman Catholic church. The support of American ideals, such as absolute freedom of the press, liberalism, individualism, complete separation of church and state, etc.

Neither definition seems to work in relation to Anti-Americanism. Which tends to be used in opposition to criticism of U.S. government policies. Unless, those using the term perceive ultimate piety in the leadership of the United States. In which case the former definition of Americanism and American Exceptionalism stands to reason. However, in my experience, those that use the term Anti-American, tend to claim not for the piety of American leadership.

So, what are we really talking about?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Interesting. Personally, I've always associated the term with Joseph McCarthy and Dr Strangelove. It's kind of a cartoonish phrase that is basically meaningless.It seems to be used primarily by those wishing to protect the interests of power and has nothing to do with being hostile towards any kind of cultural manifestation of American life.
  • pjfan31pjfan31 Posts: 7,335
    I'm from Australia. I say Americanised when we start seeing American spelling creeping into our language. We spell organise/organized, recognise/recognized, colour/color, stuff like that. Also how people pronounce words.

    Though it is not just that. It is that our country is being over-run by Starbucks, Mcdonalds, Pizza Hut etc etc. I'm not saying I think it is all a bad thing, because if we didn't have all these American things then we would be without the greatest band in the wor;d.

    However with the incresed American ways, and also our increased Foreign population (mainly asian, arab and indian) I am finding our national identity is somewhat being redefined. I can't stress this enough, I am not a racist, I Love my country, I love being Australian, and I love living an Australian life. I just hope That we can keep a true Australian spirit.
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  • I don't know what "americanism" is, but i can tell you this, as my little quip:

    i am outright sick of hearing "if you hate your country so much, why don't you just move to another one", and so forth.

    not only is it offensive, but it misses the boat completely.

    to borrow from Little Van Zandt, "I love my country ... because my country is all i know" ...

    beyond not knowing any thing else, i do know that the principles this country was founded upon are the most rock solid and inspiring i could personaly seek to find.

    The problem I have is with the direction that certain very narrow big-money interests have been steering this country for the last 100+ years ...

    The fact that our country hasn't realized this, and that the American people have never been taught about such matters ... that quotes like the following have never appeared in school books ... that is what has me down on "my country" ...


    "If the American people ever allowed the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." - Thomas Jefferson


    Notice he says "AND CORPORATIONS that grow up around them" ... is this not exactly what has happened?

    America is in the process of dying.
    All the wealth is being sucked up and funneled in to the hands of a limited "elite" (read: greedy, selfish) few, while the proud hardworking people of this land are allowed to toil longer and longer for the ever diminishing returns of their forever decreasing "dollar" ...

    :(

    Again.
    I LOVE MY COUNTRY.
    It is the rat bastards that have HIJACKED it that scare the shit out of me, and which i loathe with every ounce of my being.

    :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    Motion for 'Cage Bush' banner failsArticle from: AAPFont size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print August 27, 2007 08:44pm
    A PROPOSAL to string a giant banner reading "Cage Bush. Not Sydney" from the Town Hall to protest the lockdown of the city for the APEC summit has failed to win the support of the council.

    City of Sydney Deputy Lord Mayor Chris Harris, from the Greens, put forward a motion calling for the banner at a council meeting tonight, but failed to gain support.

    “I was particularly disappointed none of the other councillors stood up and said what they thought,” Mr Harris said.

    “They used procedural measures to avoid commenting and chose to duck the issue.”

    Mr Harris said the tight security planned for next month's APEC summit was all about protecting US President George W. Bush.

    He said Mr Bush should be caged, rather than the city of Sydney.

    “As a city councillor I am appalled that we are allowing our government to gate off our city from the people who live, work and pay rates here,” he said.

    “While I agree that we should do all we can to protect visiting leaders, it should never be at the expense of the community's democratic rights or the economic well-being of our businesses and workers.

    “What I want council to do is to stand up for its citizens and demand the government look at alternative measures to protect world leaders that doesn't cost the city hundreds of millions of dollars in lost business and its citizens their freedom.

    “A banner on the Town Hall would at least show the community their council is willing to take a stand for them.”

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I don't know what "americanism" is, but i can tell you this, as my little quip:


    "If the American people ever allowed the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." - Thomas Jefferson

    It would seem to me that 'Americanism' should stand for the principles of American society and government. American Policy. Which is largely drafted by the constitution. It would seem then that the latter definition, the one used by the Roman Catholic church should be more accurate.

    However, in stark contrast, are the mobs of people using the term "Anti-American" to describe individuals critical of the Iraq occupation. In terms of the right to bear arms this use of Anti-American seems justified. It is becoming more apparent that the use of Anti-American and what it means to be American is subjective and entirely dependant on the users personal opinion of what Americanism is.

    So, it's kind of like common-sense. It doesn't exist to anyone, except the one who uses the term.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • I don't know what "americanism" is, but i can tell you this, as my little quip:

    i am outright sick of hearing "if you hate your country so much, why don't you just move to another one", and so forth.

    not only is it offensive, but it misses the boat completely.

    to borrow from Little Van Zandt, "I love my country ... because my country is all i know" ...

    beyond not knowing any thing else, i do know that the principles this country was founded upon are the most rock solid and inspiring i could personaly seek to find.

    The problem I have is with the direction that certain very narrow big-money interests have been steering this country for the last 100+ years ...

    The fact that our country hasn't realized this, and that the American people have never been taught about such matters ... that quotes like the following have never appeared in school books ... that is what has me down on "my country" ...


    "If the American people ever allowed the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." - Thomas Jefferson


    Notice he says "AND CORPORATIONS that grow up around them" ... is this not exactly what has happened?

    America is in the process of dying.
    All the wealth is being sucked up and funneled in to the hands of a limited "elite" (read: greedy, selfish) few, while the proud hardworking people of this land are allowed to toil longer and longer for the ever diminishing returns of their forever decreasing "dollar" ...

    :(

    Again.
    I LOVE MY COUNTRY.
    It is the rat bastards that have HIJACKED it that scare the shit out of me, and which i loathe with every ounce of my being.

    :(


    Ever see that clip of that lady in a public forum talking to Bush and she says that she works three jobs just to get by? Bushes response was...."well isn't that just uniquely American" and laughs...

    It made me want to snap his little chicken hawk neck like a twig.

    The forefathers called it. They knew what it's all about.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ever see that clip of that lady in a public forum talking to Bush and she says that she works three jobs just to get by? Bushes response was...."well isn't that just uniquely American" and laughs...

    It made me want to snap his little chicken hawk neck like a twig.

    The forefathers called it. They knew what it's all about.

    That statement by Bush was rather stupid I thought.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That statement by Bush was rather stupid I thought.

    At least he's consistent.
  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    I don't know what "americanism" is, but i can tell you this, as my little quip:

    i am outright sick of hearing "if you hate your country so much, why don't you just move to another one", and so forth.

    not only is it offensive, but it misses the boat completely.

    to borrow from Little Van Zandt, "I love my country ... because my country is all i know" ...

    beyond not knowing any thing else, i do know that the principles this country was founded upon are the most rock solid and inspiring i could personaly seek to find.

    The problem I have is with the direction that certain very narrow big-money interests have been steering this country for the last 100+ years ...

    The fact that our country hasn't realized this, and that the American people have never been taught about such matters ... that quotes like the following have never appeared in school books ... that is what has me down on "my country" ...


    "If the American people ever allowed the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." - Thomas Jefferson


    Notice he says "AND CORPORATIONS that grow up around them" ... is this not exactly what has happened?

    America is in the process of dying.
    All the wealth is being sucked up and funneled in to the hands of a limited "elite" (read: greedy, selfish) few, while the proud hardworking people of this land are allowed to toil longer and longer for the ever diminishing returns of their forever decreasing "dollar" ...

    :(

    Again.
    I LOVE MY COUNTRY.
    It is the rat bastards that have HIJACKED it that scare the shit out of me, and which i loathe with every ounce of my being.

    :(

    "Liberals Love America Like O.J. Loved Nicole"

    That pretty much sums it up.
  • 69charger wrote:
    "Liberals Love America Like O.J. Loved Nicole"

    That pretty much sums it up.

    for a guy thats usually on point with well reasoned debate, that one just pissed me off, charger.

    i expect better of you here, and flinging insults out at a stupid sterotype is just out of character.

    a. define a liberal
    and
    b. why are you so sure they are killing this country
    (that seems to be the analogy)

    and

    c. are you calling me a liberal

    because i challenge you to defend that position with more than the above type post.

    :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • to me americanized is when you hear a kid in china singing this:
    two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce cheese, pickles onions, on a sesame seed bun...he's been americanized
    Oh dear dad
    Can you see me now
    I am myself
    Like you somehow
    I'll ride the wave
    Where it takes me
    I'll hold the pain
    Release me
  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    and flinging insults out at a stupid sterotype is just out of character.

    Most would disagree with you ;)
    a. define a liberal
    and

    Cindy Sheehan
    b. why are you so sure they are killing this country
    (that seems to be the analogy)

    Doing things like buddying up with Hugo Chavez and claiming the US goverment killed 3,000 of it's own citizens on 9/11.
    c. are you calling me a liberal

    Not necessarily. Just offering a counter to you hating "love it or leave it", a slogan which I happen to agree with.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Again.
    I LOVE MY COUNTRY.
    It is the rat bastards that have HIJACKED it that scare the shit out of me, and which i loathe with every ounce of my being.

    :(
    Very very well put. I love the states, been there 3 times now and plan on seeing MUCH more of it. I love the people, not ALL the people, just like I can't say I love all Irish people. I love the food. I really want to see more scenery as Delaware is pretty much the only countryside I've been to. I love the music and the films that have come from there.

    But I fucking HATE to see ANY country being ripped off by those who are supposed to be representing the people! I feel sad that it's come to this. It really could be such a FANTASTIC country if it would focus on all the great stuff rather than the negatives. Fear mongering will not make any country great. Without sounding patronising, I really really do feel sad for those of you who did not vote for Bush. I just hope your country can come through this in one piece.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    69charger wrote:

    Cindy Sheehan
    This is the woman whose son died in Iraq right? Am I the only one who finds it disgusting that people have come to hate her simply because she does not want other peoples kids to die such needless senseless deaths?

    Unbelieveable that a woman in mourning over her child can become a hate figure!
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • WMAWMA Posts: 175
    Very very well put. I love the states, been there 3 times now and plan on seeing MUCH more of it. I love the people, not ALL the people, just like I can't say I love all Irish people. I love the food. I really want to see more scenery as Delaware is pretty much the only countryside I've been to. I love the music and the films that have come from there.

    But I fucking HATE to see ANY country being ripped off by those who are supposed to be representing the people! I feel sad that it's come to this. It really could be such a FANTASTIC country if it would focus on all the great stuff rather than the negatives. Fear mongering will not make any country great. Without sounding patronising, I really really do feel sad for those of you who did not vote for Bush. I just hope your country can come through this in one piece.

    It'll all work out ok. I feel bad for the kids dying over there, but it hasn't been anybody I know yet (that I know of). I am sure that is true for most in the country.

    I figure the worst that could happen would be a draft because of insufficient recruitment. Most of the wanna-be tough guys will probably be shitting their pants trying to stay out of duty, and the war(s) would end quick enough with large scale protests.
  • MathMath Posts: 71
    This is the woman whose son died in Iraq right? Am I the only one who finds it disgusting that people have come to hate her simply because she does not want other peoples kids to die such needless senseless deaths?

    Unbelieveable that a woman in mourning over her child can become a hate figure!

    Well, from our "small country" perspective, this is one of the main reasons why my fellow compadres tend to mock americans. The absence of shades. Something is either white or black. There's nothing in between. No balance.

    So yes, our anti-americanism mostly come from your politicians, but this manicheism I reffered to is often considered as a sign for stupidity.


    PS : Don't yell at the messenger. I'm not a big fan of your expansionnist politics and I'm pretty sure there are some stupid people in the USA, but we, belgians, are also often mocked by our neighbours for our stupidity, so I can relate to that either.
    "Not only is there no God, but try getting a plumber on weekends" - Woody ALLEN
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    69charger wrote:
    Cindy Sheehan
    That's not a definition.

    69charger wrote:
    Doing things like buddying up with Hugo Chavez and claiming the US goverment killed 3,000 of it's own citizens on 9/11.
    Quite a narrow description, there. Does buddying up to Saddam Hussien (a conservative best bud until the early 90s) count for anything? Saudi Arabia? Does anyone who doesn't like Hugo Chavez and doesn't believe the government was anything more than completely incompetent on 9/11 disqualify them from being a liberal?
    69charger wrote:
    Not necessarily. Just offering a counter to you hating "love it or leave it", a slogan which I happen to agree with.
    If you agree with that slogan, you are not a patriotic American.

    I prefer "love it or change it." And, slowly but surely, I'm winning.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Math wrote:
    Well, from our "small country" perspective, this is one of the main reasons why my fellow compadres tend to mock americans. The absence of shades. Something is either white or black. There's nothing in between. No balance.

    So yes, our anti-americanism mostly come from your politicians, but this manicheism I reffered to is often considered as a sign for stupidity.


    PS : Don't yell at the messenger. I'm not a big fan of your expansionnist politics and I'm pretty sure there are some stupid people in the USA, but we, belgians, are also often mocked by our neighbours for our stupidity, so I can relate to that either.
    good point on the black and white thing... that's certainly true for a lot on this message board. I've seen quite a few examples of that already here today without even venturing near the moving train.

    Ireland gets a good slagging also :D
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    RainDog wrote:
    That's not a definition.


    Quite a narrow description, there. Does buddying up to Saddam Hussien (a conservative best bud until the early 90s) count for anything? Saudi Arabia? Does anyone who doesn't like Hugo Chavez and doesn't believe the government was anything more than completely incompetent on 9/11 disqualify them from being a liberal?

    If you agree with that slogan, you are not a patriotic American.

    I prefer "love it or change it." And, slowly but surely, I'm winning.

    Funny...

    I don't remember talking to you...
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    69charger wrote:
    Funny...

    I don't remember talking to you...
    Even funnier...

    I don't remember your post being a private message.
  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    RainDog wrote:
    Even funnier...

    I don't remember your post being a private message.

    Shouldn't you be helping to clean up your town or strengthening some levees and shit?

    Oh, that's right! It's George Bush's fault!

    :rolleyes:
  • Hannity's monogrammed cowboy boots have got to enter into the discussion at some point.

    edit - google some of his pics from the country music festival/show he does every year, words can't describe
    hate was just a legend
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    69charger wrote:
    Shouldn't you be helping to clean up your town or strengthening some levees and shit?

    Oh, that's right! It's George Bush's fault!

    :rolleyes:
    AHhhhhh, I see you guys have FINALLY learned sarcasm :) well done! :p

    Lol, I like that another republican senator has been caught with his pink pants down :D

    How does it feel to be on their side 69?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    69charger wrote:
    Shouldn't you be helping to clean up your town or strengthening some levees and shit?

    Oh, that's right! It's George Bush's fault!

    :rolleyes:
    I do clean up litter in my neighborhood - but right now I'm at work earning money to contribute to our economy. As for the levees, I'm not an engineer.

    And you'll have to point me to where I said it was all George Bush's fault.

    Now, shouldn't you be out further marginalizing your foothold in American politics?
  • WesternskyWesternsky Posts: 363
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It would seem to me that 'Americanism' should stand for the principles of American society and government. American Policy. Which is largely drafted by the constitution. It would seem then that the latter definition, the one used by the Roman Catholic church should be more accurate.

    This seems to make the most sense, though I do think that there is a larger cultural element to the overall sentiment. But then again doesn't it all have to do with context? In most cases when the term is used I think it is typically referring to our country in direct relation to whatever our current administrations policy is on a given issue (occupation, invasion, embargo...).
  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    69charger wrote:
    "Liberals Love America Like O.J. Loved Nicole"

    That pretty much sums it up.


    a look into oblivion:http://inteldaily.com/?c=172&a=3378

    "mama don't raise your boys to be cowboys...."
    all insanity:
    a derivitive of nature.
    nature is god
    god is love
    love is light
  • DeniDeni Posts: 233
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I used this term loosely in a discussion with Surferdude. But now I'm getting to the bottom of what it actually means.

    The term Anti-Americanism is used quite frequently and is recognized as describing something in reality. However, in order for one to practice Anti-Americanism, there must be something first called Americanism.

    Might Americanism be American Exceptionalism - the belief that America and Americans are inherently superior to other nations and nationalities.

    Or might it refer to the definition used by the Roman Catholic church. The support of American ideals, such as absolute freedom of the press, liberalism, individualism, complete separation of church and state, etc.

    Neither definition seems to work in relation to Anti-Americanism. Which tends to be used in opposition to criticism of U.S. government policies. Unless, those using the term perceive ultimate piety in the leadership of the United States. In which case the former definition of Americanism and American Exceptionalism stands to reason. However, in my experience, those that use the term Anti-American, tend to claim not for the piety of American leadership.

    So, what are we really talking about?

    What does "Americanism" have to do with Canada and Mexico... let alone the totality of South America? Wouldn't a more appropriate term be USAism?
    "Ideas are bulletproof." --V

    Peace and Love
    Deni
    :)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Westernsky wrote:
    This seems to make the most sense, though I do think that there is a larger cultural element to the overall sentiment. But then again doesn't it all have to do with context? In most cases when the term is used I think it is typically referring to our country in direct relation to whatever our current administrations policy is on a given issue (occupation, invasion, embargo...).

    It's the best I can do right now.

    Boy, who would have thought a thread asking for a simple coherent definition of a term could bring so much nonsensical bickering. Thanks for your input :)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Deni wrote:
    What does "Americanism" have to do with Canada and Mexico... let alone the totality of South America? Wouldn't a more appropriate term be USAism?

    I agree with you there. For ages I've referred to "America" as "the States" and it's inhabitants as "Statesmen". But, the definition is stolen.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    AHhhhhh, I see you guys have FINALLY learned sarcasm :) well done! :p

    Lol, I like that another republican senator has been caught with his pink pants down :D

    How does it feel to be on their side 69?

    I'm not a republican and I am not a homophobe.

    Thanks for asking though!
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