Interesting verse from the Gospel of Thomas

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

Does anyone else have an interpretation?
I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Or maybe he is referring to life. That which is at the beginning is void of experience. And he's suggesting that the end is the same. That if we stood at the beginning we would never live to "taste" death.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • PJammin'PJammin' Posts: 1,902
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    i don't have an interpretation. i do have the exact meaning behind this verse though. :)
    I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Oooh!

    Check this out! Ancient Christian art. Pre-Byzantine era, 3rd or 4th century C.E.

    Interestingly Jesus is not depicted, nor are any other religious figures. Only a pattern vaguely resembling the zodiac and two fish.

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/tatumweb/blog/pix/megiddo-church-wp-04-large.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_%28astrology%29
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    I arrived at the same conclusion reading the Gospel of Thomas. It's a fascinating book, and along with the other Gnostic teachings, it rings truer than any orthodox Christian teachings that I'm aware of.

    3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

    "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
  • HerboHerbo Posts: 63
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    athiests dont even acknowledge religion, let alone try to interpret the bible.

    you sound more like a closet christian, trying to convince yourself that there is a god and the bible is truth.
    Take a bottle drink it down..... pass it around !
  • HerboHerbo Posts: 63
    anyways... take a geezer at what old mate Timothy had to say....

    (dont show this to the girl christians for thou art likely to scratch your holy eyes out)...

    002:005
    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    002:006
    Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    002:007
    Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    002:008
    I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

    002:009
    In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

    002:010
    But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

    002:011
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

    002:012
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    002:013
    For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    002:014
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    002:015
    Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
    Take a bottle drink it down..... pass it around !
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.
    The end and the beginning are the same thing. Eternity is the eternal now. No beginning, no end. Just ISness.

    "He who overcometh shall not feel the second death"

    The idea is that those who resolve their issues are considered reborn and find the heaven within and around them in all things. Enlightened. They become one with the light consciously in life. At death they procede into the Light purely and naturally having done at-one-ment or atonement/resolution with this Light in life. These means the illusions of time and separation have dissolved. Death is a mere transition and done with ease.

    On the other hand, facing the Light at "normal" death is like pointing out a contradiction or inconsistency to someone in life--people are shocked by the dissonence between the real truth and what they've mistakenly taken to be is the truth. The dissonance/separation causes them to recycle to different levels of existence, still separate from the light--levels such as reincarnation.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

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    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Herbo wrote:
    athiests dont even acknowledge religion, let alone try to interpret the bible.

    you sound more like a closet christian, trying to convince yourself that there is a god and the bible is truth.

    I've read parts of the Qu'ran too. I don't believe any of it, but it's fun to interpret.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I arrived at the same conclusion reading the Gospel of Thomas. It's a fascinating book, and along with the other Gnostic teachings, it rings truer than any orthodox Christian teachings that I'm aware of.

    3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

    "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

    Funny, I've heard people quote verse 3 a lot.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • MakingWavesMakingWaves Posts: 1,293
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    I believe this means something that is found in other Gospels. Jesus saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, he who believes in me will never die."
    Seeing visions of falling up somehow.

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  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    I believe this means something that is found in other Gospels. Jesus saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, he who believes in me will never die."

    From the quote it doesn't sound as if Jesus is talking about himself at all. Why is it "he who believes in me" is the same as "finding the beginning and the end"? Not trying to attack, just trying to have a discussion.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    Oooh!

    Check this out! Ancient Christian art. Pre-Byzantine era, 3rd or 4th century C.E.

    Interestingly Jesus is not depicted, nor are any other religious figures. Only a pattern vaguely resembling the zodiac and two fish.

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/tatumweb/blog/pix/megiddo-church-wp-04-large.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_%28astrology%29

    I'm guessing this is because Christians were being horribly persecuted at this point in time. If art was found depicting Jesus, the artists would have probably had their heads cut off, or worse. These are the times when Christians were also worshipping in hidden underground tunnels called Catacombs. The fish to which you're referring is the Icthus which was a coded symbol of Christianity.
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    He was trying to say:

    Spin the Black Circle

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I'm guessing this is because Christians were being horribly persecuted at this point in time. If art was found depicting Jesus, the artists would have probably had their heads cut off, or worse. These are the times when Christians were also worshipping in hidden underground tunnels called Catacombs. The fish to which you're referring is the Icthus which was a coded symbol of Christianity.

    That could explain why there are no realistic depictions of Jesus Christ. All the depictions are of a lanky white guy. Whereas Jesus was most likely quite bulky, being a carpenter, and dark skinned. Although some depictions are dark skinned, the vast majority make Jesus look European and none depict a carpenter-like man.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    He was trying to say:

    Spin the Black Circle

    Haha, maybe it was a prophecy about vinyl ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    LIFE.
    at the beginning we have life and at the end we have life. eternal life. the death we experience physically is not death at all but the beginning of that eternal life. like a mobius strip. we return to where we came from. it is a never ending cycle. it takes different forms but remains neverending.
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  • Ahnimus wrote:
    That could explain why there are no realistic depictions of Jesus Christ. All the depictions are of a lanky white guy. Whereas Jesus was most likely quite bulky, being a carpenter, and dark skinned. Although some depictions are dark skinned, the vast majority make Jesus look European and none depict a carpenter-like man.

    I agree completely; the fish example is most likely due to reasons I stated above. The examples you gave are most likely due to white supremacy, the rise of the Roman Empire and capitalism.
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • PJammin'PJammin' Posts: 1,902
    as with a lot of Christ's words, He intended this saying to have multiple meanings. that's why He is such a beautiful man. His mind is beyond INCREDIBLE.
    I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    So where does David Koresh fit into all of this? :confused:
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That could explain why there are no realistic depictions of Jesus Christ. All the depictions are of a lanky white guy. Whereas Jesus was most likely quite bulky, being a carpenter, and dark skinned. Although some depictions are dark skinned, the vast majority make Jesus look European and none depict a carpenter-like man.

    No doubt Jesus was not a European looking man, but the "bulky" part confuses me. I was a carpenter for 14 years, and Im about as far from "bulky" as you can get. Odd that you'd think he would be "quite bulky". At least it struck me as odd. :)
    Why go home

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  • Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    All that stuff about eternal life and the fact that God is the beginning ("in the beginnig was the word and the word was with God and the word was God..."). God is the alpha and omega. Find God, find eternal life.
  • boxwine_in_hellboxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.

    I think Thomas found a few mushrooms in his backyard before he started reading his notes and writing his gospel.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
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  • boxwine_in_hellboxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    And one more thing......unless you are profecient in ancient Greek, what Thomas really wrote is probably a little bit different and can change the whole meaning of the verse.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
    -The Replacements-
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    No doubt Jesus was not a European looking man, but the "bulky" part confuses me. I was a carpenter for 14 years, and Im about as far from "bulky" as you can get. Odd that you'd think he would be "quite bulky". At least it struck me as odd. :)

    I don't think Jesus had access to a skill saw or drill press.

    Imagine he had to do everything by hand.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • boxwine_in_hellboxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I don't think Jesus had access to a skill saw or drill press.

    Imagine he had to do everything by hand.

    Jesus roided up so he could win the annual Judean Carpenter's Skill Challenge.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
    -The Replacements-
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    No doubt Jesus was not a European looking man, but the "bulky" part confuses me. I was a carpenter for 14 years, and Im about as far from "bulky" as you can get. Odd that you'd think he would be "quite bulky". At least it struck me as odd. :)

    I imagine that he looked like Tim Allen's assistant carpenter 'Al' from the t.v show 'Home improvement'.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I imagine that he looked like Tim Allen's assistant carpenter 'Al' from the t.v show 'Home improvement'.
    :D lol
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • ForestBrainForestBrain Posts: 460
    Ahnimus wrote:
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    Seems to me Jesus is referring to the causal loop theory of the universe. That at the end of the universe will be the beginning of the universe. Not sure why they wouldn't taste death though, unless that's metaphorical.

    Does anyone else have an interpretation?
    I know it's gnostic, but come on, I'm an atheist.
    Wow, where in the world did you get that from?
    When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
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