Power of Suggestion

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
I want to touch on the subject of suggestion. Because, when I was growing up my father always taught me about the "power of suggestion". He had read books like Dayle Carnagie's "How to make friends and influence people" and Steven R. Covey's "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People". My father was a retail sales manager for 15 years and became very attuned to manipulating people to buy.

I adopted many of what he taught me through suggestion and modeling. But I realized at some point that the practice was very dishonest. I may seem very blunt and straight sometimes, it's because of this. People generally use some form of thought manipulation by paraphrasing certain ways, identifying with their victim before laying the goods on them, variations in their tonal distortion and so on.

I exercised my knowledge of thought manipulation at my work party on the weekend without really intending to. I got free drinks, people were giving me wine, danced with all kinds of girls and set up meetings with Project Managers as well as Brown-nosed a bit with the VP.

"Power of Suggestion" may very well be an understatement. It's more like brain-washing if you ask me.

This could also be viewed as normal social interaction, but isn't it in some ways dishonest?

Discuss.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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Comments

  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    I think it sometimes can be dishonest. I suppose it goes to motive.

    But based on your threads of late, I have observed that you lack basic social skills. So when people were giving you glasses of wine, they were simply being friendly and social. When women were dancing with you they were simply being social. When making small-talk with the VP it is called mingling, and that is why office holiday parties exist.

    So while I believe that you convinved yourself that you brainwashed all of these people into doing these things, the reality is that they were doing these things precisely because they were at a holiday party, and they did them with others at the same party - even ones who aren't as gifted in the powers of persuasion.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jeffbr wrote:
    I think it sometimes can be dishonest. I suppose it goes to motive.

    But based on your threads of late, I have observed that you lack basic social skills. So when people were giving you glasses of wine, they were simply being friendly and social. When women were dancing with you they were simply being social. When making small-talk with the VP it is called mingling, and that is why office holiday parties exist.

    So while I believe that you convinved yourself that you brainwashed all of these people into doing these things, the reality is that they were doing these things precisely because they were at a holiday party, and they did them with others at the same party - even ones who aren't as gifted in the powers of persuasion.

    That's basically what I was implying. Normal social interaction involves all levels of persuasion. What is and isn't acceptable?

    I mean, a magician uses persuasion and optical illusions to trick us into belief, is that dishonest? IMO, it's good entertainment, but if a person actually believes it's real, well, then it becomes dishonest. Does motivation count or are there acceptable losses?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That's basically what I was implying. Normal social interaction involves all levels of persuasion. What is and isn't acceptable?

    I mean, a magician uses persuasion and optical illusions to trick us into belief, is that dishonest? IMO, it's good entertainment, but if a person actually believes it's real, well, then it becomes dishonest. Does motivation count or are there acceptable losses?

    I don't thinks the magician example has any dishonesty. When one sees a magician saw his assistant in half, or make the bunny disappear, nobody actually believe the assistant was sawn in half or the that bunny has actually vanished. They paid to be entertained, to see illusion, to be amazed, and to try to figure out the "trick".

    Used car salesmen may be a better target for this discussion, but even then, anyone going to a used car lot has to go there with some expectations not the least of which is that the salesman is going to try to sell you a car and will make sure that he points out all of the good things and glosses over all of the bad things. If he actually lies about any features of the car, that is clearly dishonest, but if he is just giving his spin, and the consumer isn't asking the right questions, then he is just doing his job.

    If you think that when people use persuasion there is dishonesty, it doesn't say much about marketing, sales, position papers, theories, etc... all of which attempt through persuasion to bring people to certain conclusions.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jeffbr wrote:
    I don't thinks the magician example has any dishonesty. When one sees a magician saw his assistant in half, or make the bunny disappear, nobody actually believe the assistant was sawn in half or the that bunny has actually vanished. They paid to be entertained, to see illusion, to be amazed, and to try to figure out the "trick".

    Used car salesmen may be a better target for this discussion, but even then, anyone going to a used car lot has to go there with some expectations not the least of which is that the salesman is going to try to sell you a car and will make sure that he points out all of the good things and glosses over all of the bad things. If he actually lies about any features of the car, that is clearly dishonest, but if he is just giving his spin, and the consumer isn't asking the right questions, then he is just doing his job.

    If you think that when people use persuasion there is dishonesty, it doesn't say much about marketing, sales, position papers, theories, etc... all of which attempt through persuasion to bring people to certain conclusions.

    Well, in this day and age we have a lot of conflicting suggestions. Like regression therapy, most hypnotists are practicing some kind of suggestion to plant memories. A recent study at (I believe) the Salk institute was pursuing the implantation of memories. Some of the results were interesting. People prone to believe in paranormal were easily convinced by an audio-tape that they had an experience.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I never go to work parties. Personal Policy.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Someone in the California area may be able to confirm this. I read in California there is a law about sophistication. A sales person who has "sophisticated" knowledge, must legally inform their customers.

    So I suppose this applies to: If someone was selling a car and knew that the vehicle was prone to certain failure.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    I never go to work parties. Personal Policy.

    An exercise in free will, really.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    An exercise in free will, really.

    Yes, that is the suggestion.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    An exercise in free will, really.

    It's not "free"-will :P
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It's not "free"-will :P

    Arrgh. Lookit, I'll not go back and read that damn thread. I didn't read it the first time because I'm pretty sure I know what's already there.
    My thing is, I'm already of the mind we can pick and discern the meaning of vocabulary and language easily enough to make any sort of idea/consciousness to mean absolute zero, if we wish. Whether it be free will or jesus or pearl jam, it all means nothing, and none of it is free, right?

    You've chosen your own definition of free. And that's about all that amounts to.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Arrgh. Lookit, I'll not go back and read that damn thread. I didn't read it the first time because I'm pretty sure I know what's already there.
    My thing is, I'm already of the mind we can pick and discern the meaning of vocabulary and language easily enough to make any sort of idea/consciousness to mean absolute zero, if we wish. Whether it be free will or jesus or pearl jam, it all means nothing, and none of it is free, right?

    You've chosen your own definition of free. And that's about all that amounts to.


    Consciousness isn't absolute zero :(

    This article says it way better than what I can
    http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Consciousness isn't absolute zero :(

    This article says it way better than what I can
    http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

    I didn't say that. Basically, I'm agreeing with you, knowledge is.

    JK, sort of.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    I didn't say that. Basically, I'm agreeing with you, knowledge is.

    JK, sort of.

    I'm still believing that my point was drastically misunderstood. I mean, I don't see how "free-will" is at all possible and the meists can't explain it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm still believing that my point was drastically misunderstood. I mean, I don't see how "free-will" is at all possible and the meists can't explain it.

    I would have to read the thread to follow your thinking on it. Honestly, and this is no dis to you, I just don't see the point. As I said, I think you've decided to use the meaning of language to the advantage of your argument. The English language (and all languages) are all certainly open to interpretation.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    I would have to read the thread to follow your thinking on it. Honestly, and this is no dis to you, I just don't see the point. As I said, I think you've decided to use the meaning of language to the advantage of your argument. The English language (and all languages) are all certainly open to interpretation.

    So, I think I misunderstood, are you saying that we can't use language to explain things?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So, I think I misunderstood, are you saying that we can't use language to explain things?

    Cripes, Ahnimus. Explain what things? You're looking for explanations?

    I was thinking of quoting you in my signature line. Are you okay with that?

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Cripes, Ahnimus. Explain what things? You're looking for explanations?

    I was thinking of quoting you in my signature line. Are you okay with that?

    Quote me all you want. I've said what I've said and I can't change it. :(
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Quote me all you want. I've said what I've said and I can't change it. :(


    I won't, if you don't want me too. I dunno. You've got a hellluva brain, maybe the quote will help with keeping it a little more humble, or something.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    I won't, if you don't want me too. I dunno. You've got a hellluva brain, maybe the quote will help with keeping it a little more humble, or something.

    Quote me.

    My brain is no different than any other, with the exception of some major repeated head trauma. Also considering I don't have anything physically wrong with my brain as some unfortunate people do. :(
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Quote me.

    My brain is no different than any other, with the exception of some major repeated head trauma. Also considering I don't have anything physically wrong with my brain as some unfortunate people do. :(

    Intellectually, I know, your brain is sound. Therefore, I shall quote you in the signature line of my profile.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Intellectually, I know, your brain is sound. Therefore, I shall quote you in the signature line of my profile.

    The intellectual properties of my brain (IMO) are solely attributable to the correlation between information and neurons.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The intellectual properties of my brain (IMO) are solely attributable to the correlation between information and neurons.

    I'll buy that.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    I'll buy that.

    There are other factors, but none as important as that.

    What quote were you planning on using?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    There are other factors, but none as important as that.

    What quote were you planning on using?

    Jeepers. I know which one it is, the matter of finding it is a different matter. Working on it.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Jeepers. I know which one it is, the matter of finding it is a different matter. Working on it.

    lol, what was the pertinence of it?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    lol, what was the pertinence of it?

    The evolution thing. Malaria.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Although, I would argue that black people have better DNA statistically speaking. With the exception of sickle-cell anemia and a few others.

    That one?

    Gee, I hope that's not the pinnacle of my intelligence :(
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    Going bad to the original thread, sortof, did you hear about the new add campaing for milk?

    They are using strips that smell like chocolate chip cookies in order to make your brain think "cookies, oh, and a glass of milk would go great with that".

    Whether or not the campaing is effective, no one knows yet, but this is definitely another form of the power of suggestion.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    qtegirl wrote:
    Going bad to the original thread, sortof, did you hear about the new add campaing for milk?

    They are using strips that smell like chocolate chip cookies in order to make your brain think "cookies, oh, and a glass of milk would go great with that".

    Whether or not the campaing is effective, no one knows yet, but this is definitely another form of the power of suggestion.

    See, it's like McDonald's using Spongbob or some shit to get kids to want to eat bad food.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    Ahnimus wrote:
    See, it's like McDonald's using Spongbob or some shit to get kids to want to eat bad food.
    Well, they're trying to get people to drink milk... but I think they're probably just doing Oreo Cookies a favor.
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