Boy Shoots Himself At School

Ahnimus

justam wrote:

In my opinion, the parents didn't own the gun responsibly. They had a gun in the house that their child could take out and kill himself with. Where's the responsibility in that?

Guns make it far too easy for people to die. If the boy had to stab himself with a kitchen knife, I don't think he'd have the nerve to kill himself, but the ease of a gun made it a simple movement of his finger and it was OVER.

Personally, I would find it a lot easier to jump from a really tall building. That way when I hit the ground my brain splatters and I don't have to worry about surviving as a vegetable. Plus, I'd get a nice free-fall sensation right before I died.

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

Personally, I would find it a lot easier to jump from a really tall building. That way when I hit the ground my brain splatters and I don't have to worry about surviving as a vegetable. Plus, I'd get a nice free-fall sensation right before I died.

Fine. I'm not changing my opinion on this, and maybe you aren't either.

I still think the gun laws in this country are not what they should be because the average person does not need a weapon like that in their home.

bootlegger10

catefrances wrote:

in what respect do kids have it easy these days?
from what i see they have to strive to be 'the best' at everything they do. they have to achieve high in order to get the grades to get into university to get the good job to earn the good money to be deemed a success in our society.
i would rather my children were happy with what they were doing not busting their hump to please me. or anyone else for that matter. i will be pleased with what they have achieved and what they are doing if it is what they want to do.

Ther is no secret to good grades. You study and work hard. What a novel idea. Instead of blaming "society" for our problems, how about we take some personal responsibility.

Ahnimus

bootlegger10 wrote:

Ther is no secret to good grades. You study and work hard. What a novel idea. Instead of blaming "society" for our problems, how about we take some personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility implies we have free-will, which is hotly debatable on a philosophical level.

seanw1010

enharmonic wrote:

Kids today have it easy. When I was in high school, I feared the day I brought home anything less than a C. No car, no chilling with the little lady, no movies on the weekend. Heck, if it wasn't for my dad threatening no sports, I might have flunked out of high school.

I feel bad for the kid, but if he threw himself in frnt of a speeding bus, would we have a debate about busses too? Would people be calling for busses to be outlawed?

If you can't own a gun responsibly, that is your problem. Those of us who don't have big rocks in our head can own them without much risk.

My suicide note? "Look mom & dad, I got an A in marksmanship...you fuckers"

I mean, if you're going to do it...might as well leave as much guilt onthe table as possible.

you think we got it easy?????????????
i cant bring anything home less than a B-, or i get grounded

Ahnimus

seanw1010 wrote:

you think we got it easy?????????????
i cant bring anything home less than a B-, or i get grounded

Yea, how many times are you told that if you don't pass you won't be able to get a job?

I agree, there is a lot of academic pressure on people these days. Far more than there ever has been in the past.

jeffbr

Ahnimus wrote:

Personal responsibility implies we have free-will, which is hotly debatable on a philosophical level.

Jesus fucking Christ. We're going to hear this in every goddam thread from now on. It isn't really hotly debated except in your mind. We get that you're an automoton. The rest of us make choices every single day.

I'm sad that the kid shot himself. Clearly there were better options for him. I'm sad his parents have to suffer the death of their son. No parent wants to survive their offspring. I'm sad that some of you want to blame the parents for the son's action. If the kid had good grades and let them slip it would have been irresponsible for the parents to let it go. They were thinking of their son and their son's future. Some of you are going to make shitty parents if you don't understand that.

Since we've now turned this sad thread into a fucking debate on guns and a debate on determinism vs. free will, how about the next post in the thread steers it toward abortion? We could have a trifecta. And then if our Brit and Canadian friends could please make this an anti-US thread, we'd reach Nirvana!

Ahnimus

jeffbr wrote:

Jesus fucking Christ. We're going to hear this in every goddam thread from now on. It isn't really hotly debated except in your mind. We get that you're an automoton. The rest of us make choices every single day.

I'm sad that the kid shot himself. Clearly there were better options for him. I'm sad his parents have to suffer the death of their son. No parent wants to survive their offspring. I'm sad that some of you want to blame the parents for the son's action. If the kid had good grades and let them slip it would have been irresponsible for the parents to let it go. They were thinking of their son and their son's future. Some of you are going to make shitty parents if you don't understand that.

Since we've now turned this sad thread into a fucking debate on guns and a debate on determinism vs. free will, how about the next post in the thread steers it toward abortion? We could have a trifecta. And then if our Brit and Canadian friends could please make this an anti-US thread, we'd reach Nirvana!

Dude, Free-will is a philosophical belief and it is hotly debated. All you have to do is read one article on it or try visiting http://www.determinism.com to see that I'm not the only one that argues against free-will. Seeing that freedom of will is a philosophical belief, it has no place in the determination of blaim.

I don't blaim the parents, I just said they were stupid, naive, ignorant, ill-informed or something to that effect. The blaim goes to an infinite history of causal events. We can learn from this to become better parents ourselves, or you can believe "Free-will" drove him to suicide, until one day your son blows his head off. Maybe then you will question your beliefs.

jammypearledved

jeffbr wrote:

I'm sad that the kid shot himself. Clearly there were better options for him. I'm sad his parents have to suffer the death of their son. No parent wants to survive their offspring. I'm sad that some of you want to blame the parents for the son's action. If the kid had good grades and let them slip it would have been irresponsible for the parents to let it go. They were thinking of their son and their son's future. Some of you are going to make shitty parents if you don't understand that.

Since we've now turned this sad thread into a fucking debate on guns and a debate on determinism vs. free will, how about the next post in the thread steers it toward abortion? We could have a trifecta. And then if our Brit and Canadian friends could please make this an anti-US thread, we'd reach Nirvana!

well said

dkst0426

Why does every topic about something like this turn into a debate on gun control, and not a discussion about the REAL issue that matters, that being what drives teenagers today to act out like this?

Ahnimus

dkst0426 wrote:

Why does every topic about something like this turn into a debate on gun control, and not a discussion about the REAL issue that matters, that being what drives teenagers today to act out like this?

Everyone seems to think it's either (i) availability of guns, or (ii) free-will.

You can take the guns away, but people are still going to kill themselves. So that leaves free-will and as long as we continue to invest in that myth, we will never know why they are killing themselves.

catefrances

bootlegger10 wrote:

Ther is no secret to good grades. You study and work hard. What a novel idea. Instead of blaming "society" for our problems, how about we take some personal responsibility.

who said there was a secret to good grades? some kids just do not have the capacity or the motivation. i'm hardly blaming society by pointing out that the education system treats all children as one and the same. standardised testing is horseshit and just points out how lacking the education system is.
and i believe that people do have free will. your actions are your own and you have to take responsibility for them. but i also believe that society defines the parameters within which we are able to exercise that free will. they praise individuality and then slap it in the face when someone steps outside the box too much. the entire advertising industry prefers we show our individuality by conforming. i believe it's called pseudoindividuality.

jeffbr

Ahnimus wrote:

Everyone seems to think it's either (i) availability of guns, or (ii) free-will.

You can take the guns away, but people are still going to kill themselves. So that leaves free-will and as long as we continue to invest in that myth, we will never know why they are killing themselves.

Or take away free-will, and we'll never know why he was predestined to shoot himself. It was just part of the master cause-effect chain. He had no control over it and no responsibilty for it. No point in even trying to understand it because we can't change it. Isn't that your schtick?

Ahnimus

jeffbr wrote:

Or take away free-will, and we'll never know why he was predestined to shoot himself. It was just part of the master cause-effect chain. He had no control over it and no responsibilty for it. No point in even trying to understand it because we can't change it. Isn't that your schtick?

Ok, no free-will is not the same as predeterminism. You will find that most determinists don't believe in predeterminism. Those are two separate things.

What it means is that they would not kill themselves and that may or may not be predetermined, but we can exercise our ability to figure out the causal nature of suicide, as soon as we recognize that there is a cause, independent of the mythical free-will.

enharmonic

searchlightsoul wrote:

You do have rocks in your head if you feel the need to own a rifle for 'self protection'

The record in American schools suggests otherwise

Really? Ever have to deal with a black bear?

Ever lived in Detroit or Baltimore...land of the home invasion?

If I have rocks in my head, the Constitution must be flawed, because it is my Constitutional right to keep an bear arms. There have been guns in the house since I was a kid, and no matter how shitty I thought my life was, I never once got the urge to take one to school and start blasting away...and my childhood was pretty damned depressing.

I'm right fucking tired of this particular debate. It's people making bad decisions. That gun isn't sitting in its cabinet taunting the kid. No one is telling him to grab it and off himself...or take it to school and kill others/himself. That's just a fucked up kid who probably had a shit home life with little discipline or control.

I've never read a story about any of these kids where it was an average joe who decided to do it. It's always some kid who's totally fucked in the head...and that is an institutional problem. Kids with too much energy today aren't even allowed to have gym class. They're labeled as "hyper" or "ADD" and put on meds that fuck up their brain chemistry. And then we wonder why shit goes down?

Give me a break. On second thought...don't. Anyone who is careless enough not to secure their weapons or teach their children about gun safety deserves to have their kid blow their brains out...or worse. The counter to my argument is the BIGGEST part of the problem. Gun control advocates fail to acknowledge the RESPONSIBILITY required of gun ownership...which is why I say fuck 'em. If they can't man up and be responsible enough in their own lives to have control over what amounts to an inanimate object for most of it's usable life...then fuck 'em. They're damaged human beings on a very fundamental level. common sense and resposibility are all it takes to avoid this kind of crap. Oddly enough...two critical traits to being a half-way decent parent, too.

Kids today have it easy because of the access they have to learning. The internet is an unprecedented educational tool, that is more often used to its entertainment value. Being made to feel that you MUSt do your best is nothing new...and, it's not an unrealistic expectation. When you're a kid, the only thing you have to focus on is your grades. You don't have a job (legally), you don't have big bils to pay. Your "job" is to do your best in school, so that you have a shot at a somewhat ok life.

People in this country are getting to lazy and lax about their own personal responsibility and accountability. everyone wants to be a fat fucking lump who lays around and get's spoon-fed their entire life. Well, that's just not how it works. You have to man up, and bust your ass just to survive...and if you're lucky, you'll get ahead in some way or another...if you set your mind to it, and have the talent and responsibility it takes to be successful in any endeavor.

Enough of this blaming the gun horseshit...guns don't make shitty decisions. People do.

Byrnzie

sapperskunk wrote:

Well good thing nobody else was hurt, with all the hostage situations and murders at schools this year, I'm suprised it wasn't worse.

Fuck his parents, I mean unlike other kids around the nation he was actually staying active after school.

When I was his age, I would hang out at the local circle K drinking deck stain and look how I turned out.

atleast he didn't kill himself over a video game?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/17/48hours/main525965.shtml

“That damn game. He shot himself because of the game,” says his mother. She says he was completely addicted to it. He may have had other problems, but she thinks Everquest pushed him over the edge. Susan Spencer reports.

“He couldn’t stay off it. That’s how strong that game is. You can’t just get up and walk away,” she says. In the end, she says, the game became his life.

Now it's comments like these that make me despair of any hope for mankind.
“That damn game. He shot himself because of the game.." Fuck me sideways with a large farming instrument! Why can't people ever face the fucking truth? Why must something else always be to blame?

Byrnzie

Ahnimus wrote:

Personally, I would find it a lot easier to jump from a really tall building. That way when I hit the ground my brain splatters and I don't have to worry about surviving as a vegetable. Plus, I'd get a nice free-fall sensation right before I died.

I know it's wrong, but I laughed out loud reading this post!

catefrances

enharmonic wrote:

Kids today have it easy because of the access they have to learning. The internet is an unprecedented educational tool, that is more often used to its entertainment value. Being made to feel that you MUSt do your best is nothing new...and, it's not an unrealistic expectation. When you're a kid, the only thing you have to focus on is your grades. You don't have a job (legally), you don't have big bils to pay. Your "job" is to do your best in school, so that you have a shot at a somewhat ok life.

People in this country are getting to lazy and lax about their own personal responsibility and accountability. everyone wants to be a fat fucking lump who lays around and get's spoon-fed their entire life. Well, that's just not how it works. You have to man up, and bust your ass just to survive...and if you're lucky, you'll get ahead in some way or another...if you set your mind to it, and have the talent and responsibility it takes to be successful in any endeavor.

Enough of this blaming the gun horseshit...guns don't make shitty decisions. People do.

a kid's 'job' is to be a kid. to grow and to learn how it all works. and someone has to guide kids through that. 'to do your best' may not be same in their eyes as it is in the parents or the system. 'you're just not trying hard enough.' is not something a kid wants to hear when he is trying the best he /she knows how. shit a brick anyone would think these kids are being raised by the perfect adults. don't tell your kids they have to do their best and knuckle down when at the same time you deny what a shit time you had at school and how you hated it and how you spent more time smoking cigarettes behind the toilet block than cracking open a book.

dunkman

if only i had a gun during double fucking Algebra :rolleyes:

enharmonic

seanw1010 wrote:

you think we got it easy?????????????
i cant bring anything home less than a B-, or i get grounded

That was me, 10 years ago. We're not so different. In fact, my peeps started taking things away from me when I brought home C's. The rationale

"Average people have to work harder to keep their heads above water in the world, son. Anyone can be average. It takes commitment to yourself to do better"

When that didn't sink in, and I brought home a D, extra curricular activities were pulled. No participation in the high school musical...no soccer after school with the neighborhood friends, no movies, no phone...you name it. even went as far as to forbidding me to see my gf at the time.

When I brought home an "F", I got my ass beat. That only happened twice. I didn't like F's, and I didn't like my ass whooping. I knew I could have done better, and I knew that even if I was having trouble, with a tutor I might not have done much better, but that most teachers will not fail a child who is making an honest effort. I wasn't. I deserved an ass whooping.

Look...the best advice I can give to you as a young person is this...DON'T try harder just because your parents tell you to. Try as hard as you can because YOU are worth it.Believe me, sean, the harder you work right now, the easier things will be for you later on.

Sure, there will be people around you who seem to excel without much effort. Those people pissed me off too. Don't take a gun to school and shoot them. That is not the right solution. Just make an honest commitment to yourself. You don't have to be the "best", only the best YOU that you can be. My feeling is that each and every child has within him or her 10 times the potential that their parents have/had. all you have to do, is realize that your parents busting your balls is not about them trying to ruin your life...but to keep your life from being ruined.

I could have earned scholarships. I did the bare minimum to get B's. It was my way of being passive aggressive and retaliatory towards my folks for being so tough on me. when it came time for college, I had won a scholarship for singing. That only paid for 2 years of school, and when I realized how much harder I had to work in college, I regretted all ofthe time I spent goofing off.

This is not to say that being young should be all stoic and devoid of fun. Play as hard as you can within reason...but work hard too. If a B- is the best that you can do, then you have nothing to regret. If, however, you can look at yourself in the mirror, and know that you could do better...the only person who can control that is you. It won't matter how much your folks lay into you about it.

In the end, there's mor eto life than getting good grades. The world is full of stories about people who didn't even finish high school, but went on to make themselves huge successes. It's like my grandfather told me days before he died "Bobby, if you don't have book smarts, make sure that you have a strong back...because without one, you will certainly need the other"

Hang in there