Wouldnt providing the means to end ones life qualify as "relieve suffering"?
perhaps i conveyed that poorly. I tried to be careful with my phrasing, b/c of this. it's relief of suffering through pain modulation / sedation vs forcing death. But yes, both could be construed as relieving suffering, but to me there is a distinction.
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if you're so terminal that there's no hope and you want to die, end your life...I have an issue with a physician or helping to end someones life.
what do you want them to do, blow their brains out?? slash their wrists?? just because they wanted out of their misery doesn't mean they had it in them to do by themselves. dr. kevorkian assisted them and helped them do it a little cleaner. he injected them and they fell asleep. nice and easy. no more pain. no more suffering.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
I think hospice is great. I'm not advocating that people shouldn't be comforted or be made comfortable for their last days or when the cancer is so painful it hurts to do anythin, i've SEEN it happen to people I love. To me I draw the line with ending the suffering (through forced death). I also think that if it's inevitable a.k.a machine is breathing for someone, there is no brain activity etc... that they should remove care. There's a difference b/t letting nature take it's course (removing care and someone can't survive on their own) and forcing natures hand (medically speaking).
Most of us would look down on anyone who allowed their dog or cat to suffer when it became obvious that there's no cure available, but it's good enough for grandma?
There's a difference between "forced" death and "chosen" death.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
perhaps i conveyed that poorly. I tried to be careful with my phrasing, b/c of this. it's relief of suffering through pain modulation / sedation vs forcing death. But yes, both could be construed as relieving suffering, but to me there is a distinction.
You know as well as I do that there often comes a point when it isn't possible to relieve suffering. I know the Hippocratic Oath says that you should do no harm, but if no recovery is possible and the person WANTS to die, who exactly is being harmed?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
what do you want them to do, blow their brains out?? slash their wrists?? just because they wanted out of their misery doesn't mean they had it in them to do by themselves. dr. kevorkian assisted them and helped them do it a little cleaner. he injected them and they fell asleep. nice and easy. no more pain. no more suffering.
i know what Kevorkian did. And I know they prob went peaceful. I just don't agree with it. for reasons i've mentioned ad nauseum.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
perhaps i conveyed that poorly. I tried to be careful with my phrasing, b/c of this. it's relief of suffering through pain modulation / sedation vs forcing death. But yes, both could be construed as relieving suffering, but to me there is a distinction.
How do you feel about the Oregon law? It allows for doctors to prescribe drugs in a quantity that can be used for suicide, but the doctor does not actually participate - they just prescribe the drugs. The patient has the choice of whether or not to actually use the drugs.
Most of us would look down on anyone who allowed their dog or cat to suffer when it became obvious that there's no cure available, but it's good enough for grandma?
There's a difference between "forced" death and "chosen" death.
I don't think cats and dogs are equal to humans (shit, here goes another page or 2 of getting jumped on )
I understand the arguments from both sides very well. I understand why people feel Kevorkian was a hero. I just choose (after weighing the issues) to come down on a different side than you do (and it seems most people here today). My opinion is no less informed than anyone elses. It is my opinion...I used to be for PA suicide on some level. It has changed since then.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
You know as well as I do that there often comes a point when it isn't possible to relieve suffering. I know the Hippocratic Oath says that you should do no harm, but if no recovery is possible and the person WANTS to die, who exactly is being harmed?
that's the internal argument that i go through each time someone brings up assisted suicide. But I can't in good conscience support it.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
How do you feel about the Oregon law? It allows for doctors to prescribe drugs in a quantity that can be used for suicide, but the doctor does not actually participate - they just prescribe the drugs. The patient has the choice of whether or not to actually use the drugs.
That to me is at least a better option. Most people who are on medications (or who have alcohol or OTC medications) have lethal doses of them in their medicine cabinets. I have a problem with the doctor carrying it out though.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Well do you think that the medical community should rethink assisted suicide?
personally, no. But I think it will always be a hot button topic and I'm sure it (assisted suicide) will fall into and out of favor for generations. This is a topic like abortion. You have very strong feelings and convictions on both sides. It's not like choosing what road to take to get to dinner. Anytime you are dealing with life and death, esp amongst the medical profession, you will have VERY passionate people and passionate positions that they hold.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i agree whole heartedly. It seems like people don't want to read that I have a problem with the MEDICAL community partaking in it.
Guns are quick and efficient, and almost foolproof, but they leave a huge mess for someone to clean up and deny your loved ones the opportunity to take one last look at you, which is an important part of the grieving process for many people.
Most people in the late stages of a terminal illness aren't mobile enough to go jump off a bridge or drown themselves, and these methods, like guns, provide a rude surprise for the pour unfortunate person who has to scrape you off the pavement or drag your corpse out of the lake.
Nor would most people have any idea where to obtain a lethal dose of drugs, or even which drugs those should be. That is where a medical professional's assistance is important.
I have absolutely no intention of dying from cancer, so I've given this a great deal of thought and researched it quite a bit, and reached the conclusion that suicide is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Obviously, I hope that my cancer is gone, but if it isn't, I'm giving serious consideration to establishing residency in Oregon. I don't particularly want to die in Oregon, since my entire family is in Ohio, but I'm not about to slowly waste away either. I'm appalled that the state of Ohio finds it acceptable to regulate my life to this degree.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Guns are quick and efficient, and almost foolproof, but they leave a huge mess for someone to clean up and deny your loved ones the opportunity to take one last look at you, which is an important part of the grieving process for many people.
Most people in the late stages of a terminal illness aren't mobile enough to go jump off a bridge or drown themselves, and these methods, like guns, provide a rude surprise for the pour unfortunate person who has to scrape you off the pavement or drag your corpse out of the lake.
Nor would most people have any idea where to obtain a lethal dose of drugs, or even which drugs those should be. That is where a medical professional's assistance is important.
I have absolutely no intention of dying from cancer, so I've given this a great deal of thought and researched it quite a bit, and reached the conclusion that suicide is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Obviously, I hope that my cancer is gone, but if it isn't, I'm giving serious consideration to establishing residency in Oregon. I don't particularly want to die in Oregon, since my entire family is in Ohio, but I'm not about to slowly waste away either. I'm appalled that the state of Ohio finds it acceptable to regulate my life to this degree.
All that I'll say is that I know it's a very complex and touchy issue and I can understand why people would do it.
on a side note, i hope that you continue to win the battle with cancer. I know you've been fighting it a while now.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I am so sorry for your loss. It is precisely these kind of stories that cause me to be so passionate about peoples' right to die with dignity instead of our obsession with prolonging life at whatever cost.
Thank you. I just wanted to share so people could try to understand the other side. Sometimes people can be so critical of others without even trying to understand or see the other side.
I agree with you. See my dad has a good bit of money, so it came down to that he felt so helpless. But he had money, so all he could do was try to keep her alive by paying for doctors and nursing homes, etc. I think it's a control thing. Money was the only way he had of trying to help/control the situation. Not that he didn't love her, but he loved her so much he would do whatever he could and that was all that he "thought" he could do. I think that he felt like the other way(hospice) was like giving up on her. It's so sad.
Well, she is definitely not suffering anymore. I believe that she is at peace.
I'm so sorry your mom had to go through that, prljmfan, and you too. My mom has a lot of health problems, and going through something like this is one of my deepest fears. No need to apologize for getting deep ... as painful as I'm sure it is for you to talk about, stories like this are what people need to consider before they pass judgment on someone like Dr. Kevorkian.
As far as I'm concerned, he's a hero. I hope that the laws will be changed before I or any of my loved ones find ourselves in a similar situation, but unfortunately I don't think it's likely. I will never understand why people find it necessary to prolong a person's suffering.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry to hear your mom has problems with her health. I will keep you in my prayers. I will pray that you don't have to go through what i did. It's strange, i just realized that my mom and i sort of "suffered" together. Not that my suffering is at all comparable to hers, and i would never change the fact that i was there for her, but i was there alot more than the rest of my family, so i saw the most. It feels like it made a stronger bond between us, and being there for her was all worth it, rewarding in a way. It seemed like it was what i was supposed to do, partly because i was the only daughter. Weird? My brothers and my dad wouldn't have been able to handle it. I think that most men are babies when it comes to things like that. I think it just means that women are stronger emotionally and psychology. Here i am getting deep again!!
I don't know what your mom's health problems are, but if you ever need a empathetic, sympathetic soul to talk to, just pm me. Thank god for people like you. Pearl Jam fans are the greatest people on earth.
so that's your attempt at humor huh? I had to google whoever the hell that was. Well if you want to know where my screen name comes from look here http://www.theskyiscrape.com/faq/index.php#4.20
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
yes you do have to be "special"...being special doesn't make it right. Like I said,I understand why people would want to do that. It's not me being callous; i have an issue with the medical community partaking in it.
I have absolutely no intention of dying from cancer, so I've given this a great deal of thought and researched it quite a bit, and reached the conclusion that suicide is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Obviously, I hope that my cancer is gone, but if it isn't, I'm giving serious consideration to establishing residency in Oregon. I don't particularly want to die in Oregon, since my entire family is in Ohio, but I'm not about to slowly waste away either. I'm appalled that the state of Ohio finds it acceptable to regulate my life to this degree.
everything hippiemom said times 2 (except the oregon thing...my family and i have discussed it at length...we will take our chances in cincy or nky). when i get to end stage, i will eat every narcotic i can get my hands on (i already get 120 vicodins a month and 100 xanax...i'm almost positive that will do it). i will decide when it's enough...i will not lay in a bed turning into a shell of who i was...with no future...making my kids and family watch me suffer.
if all else fails, i guess someone could always commit a crime that gets the death penalty...no problem assisting people to die then.
Comments
perhaps i conveyed that poorly. I tried to be careful with my phrasing, b/c of this. it's relief of suffering through pain modulation / sedation vs forcing death. But yes, both could be construed as relieving suffering, but to me there is a distinction.
what do you want them to do, blow their brains out?? slash their wrists?? just because they wanted out of their misery doesn't mean they had it in them to do by themselves. dr. kevorkian assisted them and helped them do it a little cleaner. he injected them and they fell asleep. nice and easy. no more pain. no more suffering.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
There's a difference between "forced" death and "chosen" death.
i agree whole heartedly. It seems like people don't want to read that I have a problem with the MEDICAL community partaking in it.
i know what Kevorkian did. And I know they prob went peaceful. I just don't agree with it. for reasons i've mentioned ad nauseum.
I don't think cats and dogs are equal to humans (shit, here goes another page or 2 of getting jumped on
I understand the arguments from both sides very well. I understand why people feel Kevorkian was a hero. I just choose (after weighing the issues) to come down on a different side than you do (and it seems most people here today). My opinion is no less informed than anyone elses. It is my opinion...I used to be for PA suicide on some level. It has changed since then.
that's the internal argument that i go through each time someone brings up assisted suicide. But I can't in good conscience support it.
That to me is at least a better option. Most people who are on medications (or who have alcohol or OTC medications) have lethal doses of them in their medicine cabinets. I have a problem with the doctor carrying it out though.
personally, no. But I think it will always be a hot button topic and I'm sure it (assisted suicide) will fall into and out of favor for generations. This is a topic like abortion. You have very strong feelings and convictions on both sides. It's not like choosing what road to take to get to dinner. Anytime you are dealing with life and death, esp amongst the medical profession, you will have VERY passionate people and passionate positions that they hold.
Most people in the late stages of a terminal illness aren't mobile enough to go jump off a bridge or drown themselves, and these methods, like guns, provide a rude surprise for the pour unfortunate person who has to scrape you off the pavement or drag your corpse out of the lake.
Nor would most people have any idea where to obtain a lethal dose of drugs, or even which drugs those should be. That is where a medical professional's assistance is important.
I have absolutely no intention of dying from cancer, so I've given this a great deal of thought and researched it quite a bit, and reached the conclusion that suicide is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Obviously, I hope that my cancer is gone, but if it isn't, I'm giving serious consideration to establishing residency in Oregon. I don't particularly want to die in Oregon, since my entire family is in Ohio, but I'm not about to slowly waste away either. I'm appalled that the state of Ohio finds it acceptable to regulate my life to this degree.
All that I'll say is that I know it's a very complex and touchy issue and I can understand why people would do it.
on a side note, i hope that you continue to win the battle with cancer. I know you've been fighting it a while now.
Thank you. I just wanted to share so people could try to understand the other side. Sometimes people can be so critical of others without even trying to understand or see the other side.
I agree with you. See my dad has a good bit of money, so it came down to that he felt so helpless. But he had money, so all he could do was try to keep her alive by paying for doctors and nursing homes, etc. I think it's a control thing. Money was the only way he had of trying to help/control the situation. Not that he didn't love her, but he loved her so much he would do whatever he could and that was all that he "thought" he could do. I think that he felt like the other way(hospice) was like giving up on her. It's so sad.
Well, she is definitely not suffering anymore. I believe that she is at peace.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry to hear your mom has problems with her health. I will keep you in my prayers. I will pray that you don't have to go through what i did. It's strange, i just realized that my mom and i sort of "suffered" together. Not that my suffering is at all comparable to hers, and i would never change the fact that i was there for her, but i was there alot more than the rest of my family, so i saw the most. It feels like it made a stronger bond between us, and being there for her was all worth it, rewarding in a way. It seemed like it was what i was supposed to do, partly because i was the only daughter. Weird? My brothers and my dad wouldn't have been able to handle it. I think that most men are babies when it comes to things like that. I think it just means that women are stronger emotionally and psychology. Here i am getting deep again!!
I don't know what your mom's health problems are, but if you ever need a empathetic, sympathetic soul to talk to, just pm me. Thank god for people like you. Pearl Jam fans are the greatest people on earth.
Peace and Love!
so that's your attempt at humor huh? I had to google whoever the hell that was. Well if you want to know where my screen name comes from look here http://www.theskyiscrape.com/faq/index.php#4.20
what community than?
everything hippiemom said times 2 (except the oregon thing...my family and i have discussed it at length...we will take our chances in cincy or nky). when i get to end stage, i will eat every narcotic i can get my hands on (i already get 120 vicodins a month and 100 xanax...i'm almost positive that will do it). i will decide when it's enough...i will not lay in a bed turning into a shell of who i was...with no future...making my kids and family watch me suffer.
if all else fails, i guess someone could always commit a crime that gets the death penalty...no problem assisting people to die then.