34,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 2006, U.N. reports

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

However long we stick around depends. We've stuck around in Europe for the last 60 years to ensure it stays democratic and i don't think anybody has been yelling about that...

Oh dear god, here we go again :rolleyes: I didn't see you in MY country... so if you want to say 'we hung around in France, Germany, Italy... wherever' that's fine... but NOT Europe. Don't bring up this argument again! Nobody helped us when WE needed it but WE sent men to 'Europe' to fight the bad guys too... SELFLESSLY, cos it was the right thing to do... ya don't hear us going on and on and on and on and on and on about it though, do ya?

NCfan

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yes, I do... of course I do... I also think it's better than yours... I think it's great that I can drink myself to death or that I can go out and shag as many men as I please in a night or that I can get completely off my face on drugs... I can see why many MIGHT NOT see it as a utopia though! Can't you?

*disclaimer: I'm not saying I DO those things... but I can!

Well why did you acuse me of thinking my way of life is better than what's going on in the Middle East, when so do you? Isn't that being a bit of a hypocrite?

NCfan

Heineken Helen wrote:

Because they were not the grounds :rolleyes:

AND... what do you mean by 'progressive direction' please? Sounds a bit patronising to me... like your way of life is the best?

This is the post in case you were wondering....

polaris

polaris wrote:

50 years ago?? ... do you think america's covert actions have stopped? ... consider columbia now and other parts of latin america ... the only difference is that most of your resources are in iraq ...

you played both sides of the fence in the iran/iraq war ... we're talking about who has driven america's foreign policy since the second world war ... nothing has changed ...

at least in Germany - I see memorials of the Nazi era - I'm pretty sure you are not taught about how you had Salvadore Allende assasinated and then put in place a dictator who was being tried for war crimes and human rights violiations until he died recently ... nor Suharto or any of the other puppet regimes america has put in place ...

i'll take it that you still believe america wants to bring peace and flowers to the middle east ...

RainDog

NCfan wrote:

Well why did you acuse me of thinking my way of life is better than what's going on in the Middle East, when so do you? Isn't that being a bit of a hypocrite?

Perhaps, though I don't think so. Personally, I think the American way of life is better than what most of the Middle East has got going on. However, there is nothing hypocritical about saying that my way of life is better yet still believe it wrong to force that way of life onto another country. Yes, force.

redrock

NCfan wrote:

Oh, no... could it be that you think your way of life is (GASP) better??????????????????????????????

The western way of life is different (with the american way of life in a category of its own). We are not to impose our morals and values (and sometimes decadence!) on countries that have such different ways to us, especially when no effort is made to understand their way of life. We are not to judge whether it's 'in their interest' or not.

NCfan

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh dear god, here we go again :rolleyes: I didn't see you in MY country... so if you want to say 'we hung around in France, Germany, Italy... wherever' that's fine... but NOT Europe. Don't bring up this argument again! Nobody helped us when WE needed it but WE sent men to 'Europe' to fight the bad guys too... SELFLESSLY, cos it was the right thing to do... ya don't hear us going on and on and on and on and on and on about it though, do ya?

Are you drunk? Nobody is going on and on about anything. I'm not pounding my chest and shouting how America is so great. Im just citing history. It'sa fact that America helped to protect Europe from the Soviet Union with tens of thousands of troops.

No we didn't have troops in Ireland because it wasn't a strategic location to put them. There weren't 65 divisions of the Soviet army on your border where there? The same can't be said for Germany and other countries that bordered the Eastern Bloc.

NCfan

RainDog wrote:

Perhaps, though I don't think so. Personally, I think the American way of life is better than what most of the Middle East has got going on. However, there is nothing hypocritical about saying that my way of life is better yet still believe it wrong to force that way of life onto another country. Yes, force.

But she didn't accuse me of wanting to force my way of life onto others. She accused me of merely THINKING my way of life is better than others..... That's just bullshit when she accuses me of something she agrees with!!!!

NCfan

redrock wrote:

The western way of life is different (with the american way of life in a category of its own). We are not to impose our morals and values (and sometimes decadence!) on countries that have such different ways to us, especially when no effort is made to understand their way of life. We are not to judge whether it's 'in their interest' or not.

I think you do live where the sky's are purple... people judge each other and that is a great thing!

redrock

NCfan wrote:

I think you do live where the sky's are purple... people judge each other and that is a great thing!

So.. if I (as part of the most powerful country in the world) judge that your way of life is 'wrong', I can impose mine by aggression??? hmmmmmm......

NCfan

redrock wrote:

So.. if I (as part of the most powerful country in the world) judge that your way of life is 'wrong', I can impose mine by aggression??? hmmmmmm......

You're talking about two different things. You didn't say anything about imposing your way of life on anybody. You just said that we are not to judge others. I disagree with that.

If you want to talk about imposing your way of life on others we can talk about that too, but that is an entirely different thing than merely judging others.

RainDog

NCfan wrote:

Actually, we did need some help. We practiacally begged the French to help us defeat our masters in Britain and without their contributions we wouldn't have gained our independence.

However long we stick around depends. We've stuck around in Europe for the last 60 years to ensure it stays democratic and i don't think anybody has been yelling about that...

Different scenerios. Think about it this way: If France was propping up the British rule over the Americas for decades, then decided that it was in their best interests to oust that rule through violence, with the colonists in the middle, do you think the colonists would be grateful? Or, would that ever present charge of hypocricy be leveled against France?

Now let's look at what did actually happen. Did France leave an occupying Army after the Revolutionary War?

angelica

NCfan wrote:

You're talking about two different things. You didn't say anything about imposing your way of life on anybody. You just said that we are not to judge others. I disagree with that.

If you want to talk about imposing your way of life on others we can talk about that too, but that is an entirely different thing than merely judging others.

Wait a minute, NCfan. Are you forgetting that your country IS going way beyond merely believing your way to be best--you are going against an entire other culture and rather than learning about and understanding and accepting their deeply ingrained ways, are trying to forceably, physically IMPOSE your view and way of life on others. And it looks like you have morally made yourself out to be the hero in the picture by doing so. How do you make this make sense in your mind? And does it strike you as ironic that many support the overtaking of "that other" way of life because of a need to stop them from imposing their way of life on Americans??

redrock

NCfan wrote:

You're talking about two different things. You didn't say anything about imposing your way of life on anybody. You just said that we are not to judge others. I disagree with that.

If you want to talk about imposing your way of life on others we can talk about that too, but that is an entirely different thing than merely judging others.

I would have thought that you would have kept up with the flow of the posts and that we were discussing imposing ways of life...... and that the 'judging' came before the 'imposing'

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

i'll take it that you still believe america wants to bring peace and flowers to the middle east ...

ah yes, these peace loving right wingers

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

Are you drunk? Nobody is going on and on about anything. I'm not pounding my chest and shouting how America is so great. Im just citing history. It'sa fact that America helped to protect Europe from the Soviet Union with tens of thousands of troops.

No we didn't have troops in Ireland because it wasn't a strategic location to put them. There weren't 65 divisions of the Soviet army on your border where there? The same can't be said for Germany and other countries that bordered the Eastern Bloc.

No there weren't but there were several thousand Brits we were trying to kick out for hundreds of years... but it wasn't in your best interest to help us... so don't give us that moral crap cos it just isn't the truth.

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

But she didn't accuse me of wanting to force my way of life onto others. She accused me of merely THINKING my way of life is better than others..... That's just bullshit when she accuses me of something she agrees with!!!!

See the difference is... I KNOW my country's better than yours and better than theirs... but for ME!!!!!!!! I wouldn't dare say 'my way of life is better for YOU than your own' cos how the fuck would I know? I haven't been brought up where you have... you've probably never even BEEN to Ireland. So for me to tell YOU, who I've never met, how you want to live is simply ridiculous... and I wouldn't support my government telling you either!

Truthmonger

This war has been a fucking disaster from the get-go. It was started with a heap of lies and went downhill from there. Did the U.S. itself kill the 35,000 Iraqi's this year ??....who fucking cares. At the very least, the U.S. invasion started a process of unravelling that we see today. But beyond this, I think the U.S. is guilty of being ignorant, bullheaded, ill-prepared, dishonest and vindictive in its actions wrt Iraq. Who can forget Dan Rather, in his spiteful mocking fashion, citing the "the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air", as the first bombs started falling on Baghdad ??? That, my friend, is the height of American arrogance. I wish the U.S. would just get over itself.

NCfan

angelica wrote:

Wait a minute, NCfan. Are you forgetting that your country IS going way beyond merely believing your way to be best--you are going against an entire other culture and rather than learning about and understanding and accepting their deeply ingrained ways, are trying to forceably, physically IMPOSE your view and way of life on others. And it looks like you have morally made yourself out to be the hero in the picture by doing so. How do you make this make sense in your mind? And does it strike you as ironic that many support the overtaking of "that other" way of life because of a need to stop them from imposing their way of life on Americans??

Again, two separate issues - and we can discuss the latter here.

This is how it makes sense... First off, the culture isn't what i have issue with in the Middle East - it is the style of self-rule or lack thereof. Japan is a democracy and has a completely different culture than the US. The same goes for Canada and most of Europe. So, I'm not trying to take away anybody's culture of heritage and I'm certainly not trying to make everyone be like the U.S.

All I personally care about is that the governments turn their power to the people. If the people elect a religoious zealot to office, then I have NO problem with that. That is there right to do so. If that ruler threatens the existence of my country, which is total judgement call, then they will be dealt with. But if say Iraqi's want to elect Al-Sadr and he wants to behead all the Sunni's - then that is their perogative. I would strongly try to stop this short of military intervention.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

NCfan wrote:

Nobody knows the exact figures, but I think it is important to point out that the vast majority of these dead Iraqi civillians were not killed by American forces. Most were killed by their fellow Iraqis. The U.S. is not going around setting off bombs in markets, that is for sure. It seems to me most everytime I read about Iraqi's getting killed, it's becuase of an IED going off in a neighborhood, etc - not becuase Iraqi's were involved in a gun battle with US troops.

America had a civil war about 150 years ago, and we killed well over a million of our own before all was said and done. There were families divided with son fighting father and brother fighting brother in some cases. This is what is going on in Iraq right now, except for one HUGE difference!

It is important to point out that when Americans faught Americans, we formed armies and they fought each other. It was soldier versus soldier. In Iraq, civilians are targeted MORE than other combatants. Think about how savage this is you guys!!!!!! It just chaps my ass when people on here talk about how Americans are murderers. Do you even realize the barbaric nature of the civil war going on there now?

So basically, I would just like to point out that America is not the total bad guy here that we are made out to be. We tried to do something good, but we botched our effort and set off a civil war that has been brewing for three decades. That was our fault, and that is where we should take the full blame.

Yes, our soldiers have killed. But what we have done bad (Abu Ghraib, etc.) looks like Christmas morning compared to the violence that is raging now. But most people on this board just excuse the beheadings and bombings in neighborhood markets as the fault of the United States. It's like the Iraqi's can commit the most heinous crimes imaginable and people just point the finger at America.

I just hate how everybody is frustrated at what is going on in Iraq right now, but they put the large majority of the blame on the US. People act like Cheney and Bush are drooling over the people dying in Iraq and the Haliburton contracts that are being signed. As if as soon as they leave office in 09, they're gonna buy a private island and leave.....

I support this war and I always have, but i freely admit that our administration and the military leadership has botched the hell out of this effort. And YES, I do believe that some of the mistakes are borderline criminal.... But none-the-less... so much of the rhetoric that comes from the anti-war camp is just irresponsible non-sense!!!


POSTED: 8:56 a.m. EST, January 16, 2007
Story Highlights• NEW: "Massive" car bomb near university kills at least 15 in Baghdad
• U.N. report says more than 34,000 civilians "violently killed" in Iraq in 2006
• Death toll for November-December slightly lower than previous two months
• At least 38 killed and 135 wounded Tuesday by bombs in Baghdad

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- More than 34,000 civilians were "violently killed" across Iraq last year, with an average of 94 killed every day, according to a new United Nations report.

The grim figures came on a day when bombs, including a "massive" car bomb near a university, killed at least 38 Iraqis in Baghdad.

The bimonthly Human Rights Report of the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, covering November and December, tallied the casualties of nearly a year of relentless sectarian strife, which skyrocketed after the bombing of a Shiite mosque in Samarra on February 22.

"According to information made available to UNAMI, 6,376 civilians were violently killed in November and December 2006, with no less than 4,731 in Baghdad, most of them as a result of gunshot wounds," the report said.

"Compared to the number killed in September and October, there has been a slight reduction. It is evident however that violence has not been contained but has continued to claim a very high number of innocent victims. During 2006, a total of 34,452 civilians have been violently killed and 36,685 wounded."

The report said the "situation is particularly grave in Baghdad" and that "sectarian violence, especially in Baghdad, is singled out as a major cause for an ever-growing trend in displacement and migration of all Iraqis, as well as the targeting of various professional groups, including educators, medical professionals, journalists, judges and lawyers, religious and political leaders."

Dozens killed, wounded in Baghdad bombings
In Baghdad on Tuesday, 38 people were killed and 135 wounded in four bombings, according to Iraqi Interior Ministry officials.

A massive car bomb exploded outside the Mustansiriya University in northeastern Baghdad about 4 p.m. (8 a.m. ET), killing at least 15 people and wounding 45 others, an Interior Ministry official said.

In two of the other incidents, two bombs were timed to detonate in the same area minutes apart, an official said.

The deadliest attack happened at midday when a bomb exploded near an Iraqi police convoy along a main road in central Baghdad, the official said.

When police and others responded to that blast, a second bomb exploded nearby, killing and wounding them. At least 15 people were killed and 70 wounded by the two bombs, the official said.

About two hours earlier, two Iraqi police officers who helped defuse a car bomb in central Baghdad's Karrada section were killed when another bomb hidden nearby exploded, the official said.

Two civilians were also killed in the blast, the official said. Ten people, including three policemen, were wounded by that bomb, the official said.

In Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood Tuesday, a bomb left inside a minivan killed four people and wounded 10 others, an Interior Ministry official said.

The blast occurred about 100 to 200 yards away from the main office of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose Mehdi Army is considered one of the major participants in the Iraqi capital's raging sectarian violence.

Sadr City is overwhelmingly Shiite, and has been the scene of much violence.

You really should read up on the Civil War if you think it was all soldier vs. soldier. There were countless raids by the northern army all throughout the south that involved civilians and plenty of terrorism....towns were burned to the ground after the women were used up and the useful supplies packed up and stolen.

And regardless of the ratio of Iraqis killed by U.S. soliders vs. other Iraqis...the fact is, they're dead because we invaded.