A Different Type of war in the Middle East

NCfan

"Why is this war different from all other wars for Israel? For the first time, we're not really discussing a conflict over land or territory or even the treatment of individuals. We're not talking about Arab nationalism. We're not talking about the Palestinians. We're not even talking about the political existence of the Jewish state. We're talking about the divine mandate that the Islamists believe they are following, an eschatological struggle toward the End-Times, where the Jews must be destroyed as a people and as a sovereign state in order for the Apocalypse to occur. In this, Pat Robertson and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are in complete agreement. The trouble is: Robertson can be dismissed as a corrupt kook; Ahmadinejad has some serious weaponry and a state under his control."
- Andrew Sullivan

Laz

NCfan wrote:

"Why is this war different from all other wars for Israel? For the first time, we're not really discussing a conflict over land or territory or even the treatment of individuals. We're not talking about Arab nationalism. We're not talking about the Palestinians. We're not even talking about the political existence of the Jewish state. We're talking about the divine mandate that the Islamists believe they are following, an eschatological struggle toward the End-Times, where the Jews must be destroyed as a people and as a sovereign state in order for the Apocalypse to occur. In this, Pat Robertson and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are in complete agreement. The trouble is: Robertson can be dismissed as a corrupt kook; Ahmadinejad has some serious weaponry and a state under his control."
- Andrew Sullivan

Where do you think we got the idea that that piece of real estate belongs to Israel?

Ahnimus

What does the Israel-Palestine conflict have to do with Iran?

Hizbullah may be connected to Iran, but Hizbullah isn't going to be able to destroy Israel. This conflict isn't about idealogy or religion. It's about Israel's discrimination against the Arab world. That's what I think anyway.

veritas

Wasn't Israel created / demanded based on a supposed "divine mandate" ?
Why was it okay to wipe Palestine off the map in that process?

acutejam

Palestine was created at the same time as Israel by UN mandate -- only the Arabs rejected it, and since then it's gotten smaller and smaller and smaller -- prior to that, the Ottoman empire got it's butt kicked and it was a British Mandate, prior to that Ottomon, Syrian ... "Palestine" hasn't been on a map since about the 13th century (as a self-governing country).
Nothing divine about it... Wikipedia is your friend...

Hezbollah is a proxy for Iran. A puppet. Pull string, watch puppet dance. Too much focus on Iranian Nuclear issue? Pull strings....

Israel discriminates against Arabs, that'd be the sons of monkey and pigs thing? Oh no, I got that reversed sorry ... Israel has never started a fight. The best way to get Israel not to attack you, is not to attack them.

I've found that's somewhat universal.

sliverstain

NCfan wrote:

"Why is this war different from all other wars for Israel? For the first time, we're not really discussing a conflict over land or territory or even the treatment of individuals. We're not talking about Arab nationalism. We're not talking about the Palestinians. We're not even talking about the political existence of the Jewish state. We're talking about the divine mandate that the Islamists believe they are following, an eschatological struggle toward the End-Times, where the Jews must be destroyed as a people and as a sovereign state in order for the Apocalypse to occur. In this, Pat Robertson and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are in complete agreement. The trouble is: Robertson can be dismissed as a corrupt kook; Ahmadinejad has some serious weaponry and a state under his control."
- Andrew Sullivan

Conjecture, opinion, and unrelated to reality.

Grasping at straws.

Wrong end, wrong stick.

Unsupported by fact.

dayan

sliverstain wrote:

Conjecture, opinion, and unrelated to reality.

Grasping at straws.

Wrong end, wrong stick.

Unsupported by fact.

Actually it's pretty much on the money. Just read what these people actually say in Arabic. Memri would be a good tool for that (http://www.memri.org).

sliverstain

dayan wrote:

Actually it's pretty much on the money. Just read what these people actually say in Arabic. Memri would be a good tool for that (http://www.memri.org).

Err no, its not. How many Islamic nations have invaded, occupied, or brutalised another?

In which country does 'The Rapture' and those who promote it hold political sway? The End times scenario is a firm Jewish/Christian phenomenon. All major religions have one.

Your link sent me to Washington. I have come to doubt anything that comes from that city, alleged non-partisan or not.

Memri:

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NOTE: We are a 501(c)3 status organization, therefore your donations to The Middle East Media Research Institute are tax-deductible.

shiraz

sliverstain wrote:

Err no, its not. How many Islamic nations have invaded, occupied, or brutalised another?

Syria occupied Lebanon, Hizbullah is occuping southern Lebanon, Iraq did it with Kuwait, Turkey brutalised the Armenians, Sudan is brutalising a large part of its civilians as we speak... do you want me to continue? Cause there are lots of other examples.

All of these stuff have nothing to do with a certain type of religion, but with any religion (plus money&power).

sliverstain wrote:

In which country does 'The Rapture' and those who promote it hold political sway?

Iran, for example. but than again, you believe the destruction of state and the destruction of its people are not related, so I guess nothing I would say is gonna change your narrow point of view.

sliverstain

shiraz wrote:

Syria occupied Lebanon, Hizbullah is occuping southern Lebanon, Iraq did it with Kuwait, Turkey brutalised the Armenians, Sudan is brutalising a large part of its civilians as we speak... do you want me to continue? Cause there are lots of other examples.

All of these stuff have nothing to do with a certain type of religion, but with any religion (plus money&power).



Iran, for example. but than again, you believe the destruction of state and the destruction of its people are not related, so I guess nothing I would say is gonna change your narrow point of view.

Again another personal attack. Do moderators watch the boards or do you have to personally lodge a complaint?

Hizbollah is not a nation. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a US supported and funded secular dictatorship where the majority Shia population were persecuted and not allwoed topractise their religion. Turkey is, was a secular state at the time of the Armenian genocide and was led by Turkish Nationalism (Mustapha Kemal's new government), and Armenia wasn't a separate state. Nor are the tribes of Sudan, who are being attcked by, yes, you guessed it, a secular, Western supported Goverment.

You have not answered my question. How many Islamist nations have attacked others, then balance that against how many western nations have atacked and occupied Islamist nations?

And 'The Rapture' movement was created in the 1800's, in America, by one John Nelson Darby. Also known as "the father of the rapture doctrine".

Please consult your history text books before engaging in conversation with somebody who has.

shiraz

sliverstain wrote:

Again another personal attack. Do moderators watch the boards or do you have to personally lodge a complaint?

Hizbollah is not a nation. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a US supported and funded secular dictatorship where the majority Shia population were persecuted and not allwoed topractise their religion. Turkey is, was a secular state at the time of the Armenian genocide and was led by Turkish Nationalism (Mustapha Kemal's new government), and Armenia wasn't a separate state. Nor are the tribes of Sudan, who are being attcked by, yes, you guessed it, a secular, Western supported Goverment.

You have not answered my question. How many Islamist nations have attacked others, then balance that against how many western nations have atacked and occupied Islamist nations?

And 'The Rapture' movement was created in the 1800's, in America, by one John Nelson Darby. Also known as "the father of the rapture doctrine".

Please consult your history text books before engaging in conversation with somebody who has.

Again, you are over-reacting.

Hizbullah is not a nation, but it clearly acts like one. All the other examples I gave you are valid. I didn't try to participate in this discussion, only to show you its not the type of religion that should be the center of attention - eveyone is doing bad things all across the world, including muslims.

sliverstain

shiraz wrote:

Again, you are over-reacting.

Hizbullah is not a nation, but it clearly acts like one. All the other examples I gave you are valid. I didn't try to participate in this discussion, only to show you its not the type of religion that should be the center of attention - eveyone is doing bad things all across the world, including muslims.

No, none of your points were valid. I addressed them, apart from this one. Syria invaded Lebanon. Granted. But in response to what???

I know you didnt try to participate in the discussion, you just jumped in with your personal attack, your slanted opinion.

Everyone is not doing bad things across the world at all. Msulims do what they do out of self-defense, Christian, Zionist governments do things out of imperialism and oppression.

How many Moslem nations are occupying a Christian / Jewish one? How many Moslem nations are attcking a Christian / Jewish one?

Byrnzie

shiraz wrote:

Hizbullah is not a nation, but it clearly acts like one.

This statement is typical of someone who knows they are wrong, or have been proven wrong, but yet continues to argue the case irrespectively. It really does amuse me to see people with fixed, dogmatic, and skewered opinions - normally conservatives/republicans - squirming in their own juices.

dayan

sliverstain wrote:

Err no, its not. How many Islamic nations have invaded, occupied, or brutalised another?

In which country does 'The Rapture' and those who promote it hold political sway? The End times scenario is a firm Jewish/Christian phenomenon. All major religions have one.

Your link sent me to Washington. I have come to doubt anything that comes from that city, alleged non-partisan or not.
.

I don't see what your first point has to do with the original statement, though there have been plenty of examples of Muslim and Arab nations invading others. Iraq in Iran and then Kuwait. Syria in Lebanon. Egypt's war with Yemen. Not to mention the many wars multiple Arab countries have fought against Israel.

I don't even get your second point. First you say that the end time is a Jewish/Christion scenario, and then you say that all religions have such a scenario. Which is it. In any event the point is that Iran and Hezbollah do subscribe to these sort of messianic apocolyptic beliefs and seek to act on them.

I think it is very close minded to disregard anything simply because it comes from Washington. Memri translates information from arabic into English. These are translations of what is really said in the arabic speaking world. If you want to know what the discourse is in that world, and not only rely on the statements made for the benefit of the English speaking world (statements which are often radically different from what is said in Arabic) then Memri is a great source. I urge you, if you want to expand your understanding of the topic, to make use of this site.

dayan

Byrnzie wrote:

This statement is typical of someone who knows they are wrong, or have been proven wrong, but yet continues to argue the case irrespectively. It really does amuse me to see people with fixed, dogmatic, and skewered opinions - normally conservatives/republicans - squirming in their own juices.

How can you say this and take yourself seriously? Do you really think that the left isn't just as dogmatic and slanted in their opinions as the right? If you do think that then I'm afraid you're a part of that part of the left that does just that, and you just can't see yourself for what you are. The fact is that dogmatism exists on both the left and the right in equal strength, and there are moderate, non-dogmatic people on the right, just as there are on the left. I'm sorry for you if you can't see this.

dayan

sliverstain wrote:

No, none of your points were valid. I addressed them, apart from this one. Syria invaded Lebanon. Granted. But in response to what???

I know you didnt try to participate in the discussion, you just jumped in with your personal attack, your slanted opinion.

Everyone is not doing bad things across the world at all. Msulims do what they do out of self-defense, Christian, Zionist governments do things out of imperialism and oppression.

How many Moslem nations are occupying a Christian / Jewish one? How many Moslem nations are attcking a Christian / Jewish one?

If you really don't see the aggressive, violent, expansionist, fascist, and imperialist nature of the Islamic terrorists we are fighting against then you are simply blind. It truly astounds me that the West has become so rotten at its core that it could produce someone like you.

Byrnzie

dayan wrote:

How can you say this and take yourself seriously? Do you really think that the left isn't just as dogmatic and slanted in their opinions as the right? If you do think that then I'm afraid you're a part of that part of the left that does just that, and you just can't see yourself for what you are. The fact is that dogmatism exists on both the left and the right in equal strength, and there are moderate, non-dogmatic people on the right, just as there are on the left. I'm sorry for you if you can't see this.

Hence my use of the word 'normally'. As far as you feeling sorry for me, that cannot be. Republicans are devoid of compassion, other than for their Bank managers.

Byrnzie

dayan wrote:

If you really don't see the aggressive, violent, expansionist, fascist, and imperialist nature of the Islamic terrorists we are fighting against then you are simply blind. It truly astounds me that the West has become so rotten at its core that it could produce someone like you.

The comment you have made above is plainly ridiculous and should be reserved for a playground argument between 4 year olds.
The fact is that 'terrorists' in the sense of the word which we have recently been led to believe - i.e, those who attack 'us' - do not, by their very nature, exist in the form of a nation/country. Therefore, how can a terrorist be imperialist, or expansionist? Where exactly do you see them expanding from? Please elaborate...

sliverstain

dayan wrote:

If you really don't see the aggressive, violent, expansionist, fascist, and imperialist nature of the Islamic terrorists we are fighting against then you are simply blind. It truly astounds me that the West has become so rotten at its core that it could produce someone like you.

THe US and UK invading and occupying Iraq and Afghanistan is expansionism.

Tell me where Islamist terorists are doing the same?

Fascist? How so? I don't know of any Islamic nations that have ever gotten into bed with fascist states...but guess what, I know of a few Western and Zionist ones.

Whats this we bullshit?

"I aint got no quarrel with no vietcong."

dayan

I read this yesterday I think. It is a piece on the current conflict written by the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy, who is solidly on the left. It is too long (3 pages) to copy and paste, but it is a fantastic piece. He wrote it after coming to Israel during the current conflict.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/magazine/06israel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

dayan

Byrnzie wrote:

The comment you have made above is plainly ridiculous and should be reserved for a playground argument between 4 year olds.
The fact is that 'terrorists' in the sense of the word which we have recently been lead to believe - i.e, those who attack 'us' - do not, by their very nature, exist in the form of a nation/country. Therefore, how can a terrorist be imperialist, or expansionist? Where exactly do you see them expanding from? Please elaborate...

If you would like the full argument you should read "Terror and Liberalism" by Paul Berman. In brief, today's modern Islamic terrorists fit nicely into the theory of totalitarianism put forward by the political philosopher Hannah Arendt, who was very familiar with the topic, having herself fled from Nazi Germany because she was Jewish. Basically Islamists fetishize violence and death, dream of recreating the mythic greatness of their past empire (in this case the Islamic Caliphate) and rose out of an opposition to Liberalism, etc. The book is pretty short and very convincing (and well written). And I don't think 4 year olds use words like Fascism.