We need to stop insulting Islam. It’s enough already.

NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
September 29, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Islam and the Pope
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
We need to stop insulting Islam. It’s enough already.

No, that doesn’t mean the pope should apologize. The pope was actually treating Islam with dignity. He was treating the faith and its community as adults who could be challenged and engaged. That is a sign of respect.

What is insulting is the politically correct, kid-gloves view of how to deal with Muslims that is taking root in the West today. It goes like this: “Hushhh! Don’t say anything about Islam! Don’t you understand? If you say anything critical or questioning about Muslims, they’ll burn down your house. Hushhh! Just let them be. Don’t rile them. They are not capable of a civil, rational dialogue about problems in their faith community.”

Now that is insulting. It’s an attitude full of contempt and self-censorship, but that is the attitude of Western elites today, and it’s helping to foster the slow-motion clash of civilizations that Sam Huntington predicted. Because Western masses don’t buy it. They see violence exploding from Muslim communities and they find it frightening, and they don’t think their leaders are talking honestly about it. So many now just want to build a wall against Islam. It will be terrible if Turkey is blocked from entering the European Union, but that’s where we’re heading, and the only thing that will halt it is honest dialogue.

But it is not the dialogue the pope mentioned — one between Islam and Christianity. That’s necessary, but it’s not sufficient. What is needed first is an honest dialogue between Muslims and Muslims.

As someone who has lived in the Muslim world, enjoyed the friendship of many Muslims there and seen the compassionate side of Islam in action, I have to admit I am confused as to what Islam stands for today.

Why? On the first day of Ramadan last year a Sunni Muslim suicide bomber blew up a Shiite mosque in Hilla, Iraq, in the middle of a memorial service, killing 25 worshipers. This year on the first day of Ramadan, a Sunni suicide bomber in Baghdad killed 35 people who were lining up in a Shiite neighborhood to buy fuel. The same day, the severed heads of nine murdered Iraqi police officers and soldiers were found north of Baghdad.

I don’t get it. How can Muslims blow up other Muslims on their most holy day of the year — in mosques! — and there is barely a peep of protest in the Muslim world, let alone a million Muslim march? Yet Danish cartoons or a papal speech lead to violent protests. If Muslims butchering Muslims — in Sudan, Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan and Jordan — produces little communal reaction, while cartoons and papal remarks produce mass protests, what does Islam stand for today? It is not an insult to ask that question.

Muslims might say: “Well, what about Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo or Palestine? Let’s talk about all your violent behavior.” To which I would say: “Let’s talk about it! But you’ll have to get in line behind us, because we’re constantly talking about where we’ve gone wrong.” We can’t have a meaningful dialogue if we, too, are not self-critical, but neither can Muslims.

Part of the problem in getting answers is that Islam has no hierarchy. There is no Muslim pope defining the faith. There are centers of Muslim learning, in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but their credibility with the masses is uneven because they’re often seen as tools of regimes. So those Muslim preachers with authenticity tend to be the street preachers — firebrands, who gain legitimacy by spewing hatred at both their own regimes and the Western powers that support them.

As a result, there is a huge body of disenfranchised Sunni Muslims, who are neither violent fundamentalists nor wannabe secularists. They are people who’d like to see a marriage between Islam and modernity. But right now there is little free space in the Sunni Muslim world — between the firebrand preachers and the “official” ones — for that synthesis to be discussed and defined.

I had hoped Iraq would be that space. Whenever people asked me how I’d know if we’d won in Iraq, I said: when Salman Rushdie could give a lecture in Baghdad. I’m all for a respectful dialogue between Islam and the West, but first there needs to be a respectful, free dialogue between Muslims and Muslims. What matters is not what Muslims tell us they stand for. What matters is what they tell themselves, in their own languages, and how they treat their own.

Without a real war of ideas within Islam to sort that out — a war that progressives win — I fear we are drifting at best toward a wall between civilizations and at worst toward a real clash.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    NCfan wrote:
    I don’t get it. How can Muslims blow up other Muslims on their most holy day of the year — in mosques! — and there is barely a peep of protest in the Muslim world, let alone a million Muslim march? Yet Danish cartoons or a papal speech lead to violent protests. If Muslims butchering Muslims — in Sudan, Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan and Jordan — produces little communal reaction, while cartoons and papal remarks produce mass protests, what does Islam stand for today? It is not an insult to ask that question.

    I'll hazard a guess. Because the bombings referenced are not an attack on the faith really, as it is more about ethnic/clan strife and politics. While the caricature/pope thing are direct identifiable attacks on islam and muslims. Also the old xenophobic element of "We reserve the right to fight eachother, but any outside force will meet united resistance". Greeks united only when the Persians came. Christian europe finally united for a while when the turks marched on Vienna. And so on. Many examples throughout history.

    And it is adressing muslims, as if they are of one mind, which they are not. Otherwise, some legitimate questions here. I think the answers are not in the religion, but in the politics and regimes of the region. So I think he misses the real point.

    As for muslims in Europe, there are integration issues that must be adressed, but neither must one forget that the large majority blend into their new societies with little trouble. Norway 10% of the immigrants unemployed, vs 4% of norwegians. OK, that means 90% of immigrants have a job and takes care of themselves. The views on this tend to be too one-sided and negatively slanted, and did I mention sensationalized?

    We dont have to to treat "them" with kiddie gloves, whoever one might consider "them" to be. Is it Iraq, immigrants to the west, Iran, islamists, who are we talking about? Lumping it all together is far too common these days. And we must be allowed to criticize what is worthy of criticism and hold our own, without that equating attacking the others.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • I know, but this video does make me laugh.

    terrorist bloopers

    http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=156783
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    I'll hazard a guess. Because the bombings referenced are not an attack on the faith really, as it is more about ethnic/clan strife and politics. While the caricature/pope thing are direct identifiable attacks on islam and muslims. Also the old xenophobic element of "We reserve the right to fight eachother, but any outside force will meet united resistance". Greeks united only when the Persians came. Christian europe finally united for a while when the turks marched on Vienna. And so on. Many examples throughout history.

    And it is adressing muslims, as if they are of one mind, which they are not. Otherwise, some legitimate questions here. I think the answers are not in the religion, but in the politics and regimes of the region. So I think he misses the real point.

    As for muslims in Europe, there are integration issues that must be adressed, but neither must one forget that the large majority blend into their new societies with little trouble. Norway 10% of the immigrants unemployed, vs 4% of norwegians. OK, that means 90% of immigrants have a job and takes care of themselves. The views on this tend to be too one-sided and negatively slanted, and did I mention sensationalized?

    We dont have to to treat "them" with kiddie gloves, whoever one might consider "them" to be. Is it Iraq, immigrants to the west, Iran, islamists, who are we talking about? Lumping it all together is far too common these days. And we must be allowed to criticize what is worthy of criticism and hold our own, without that equating attacking the others.

    Peace
    Dan

    I'm curious how you come to the conclusion that the bombings mentioned were not an attack on faith. Killing people while they worship on the most holy day of their religion seems quite clear to me to be religious. Moreover, these incidences are not coincidences; they are the norm in Iraq. Do you think the bombing of the Golden Dome in Samara was non-religious? Sure there are tribal and political killings in Iraq, and sure sometimes they target each other when they are worshiping. But to deny that factions of the same religion are fighting each other in Iraq is just incorrect.

    Also, why do you think Friedman addresses Muslims as if they are all of one kind? What gives you that impression? The very premise of the column is that Muslims are different and they should open an honest dialogue to work their differences out?!?!?!

    Who is it that Friedman "attacks" here?
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    NCfan wrote:
    I'm curious how you come to the conclusion that the bombings mentioned were not an attack on faith. Killing people while they worship on the most holy day of their religion seems quite clear to me to be religious. Moreover, these incidences are not coincidences; they are the norm in Iraq. Do you think the bombing of the Golden Dome in Samara was non-religious? Sure there are tribal and political killings in Iraq, and sure sometimes they target each other when they are worshiping. But to deny that factions of the same religion are fighting each other in Iraq is just incorrect.
    I call it not religious as it is an attack on the people, not the faith. It happens on a backdrop of civil strife and ethnical/clan rivalries. Mosques are targetted because there are lots of people there mostly, and perhaps to provoke a wider war the provokers think they'll win. There is conflict and war, but not primarily of a religious nature. Think Yugoslavia. And yes, they have primarily different sects and/or religion too. Doesn't make the war about an attack on islam. They are attacks on people who also are muslims. By people who also are muslims. That the opposing groups have different favoured religions doesn't make it a religious strife in itself. Iraq is firmly about material things for all of the involved. The previously favoured sunni-population and the previsouly oppressed shi'ite population and the seperatist kurds all fight for control and position. They do not war because of their religion, even if they have different ones. It ain't that hard. An attribute does not have to be the central one, even if shared by the relevant group. I feel christianity has little to do with american crime, even though most criminals there are of the christian faith for instance....

    I'm not saying it's right to not be angry at this and be rioting for caricatures or pope-remarks, I am suggesting why one is reacted upon and not the other. And that is the divide between civil war on the one hand, and direct attack on an entire faith, fueled further by leaders with agendas of their own.
    Also, why do you think Friedman addresses Muslims as if they are all of one kind? What gives you that impression? The very premise of the column is that Muslims are different and they should open an honest dialogue to work their differences out?!?!?!
    He calls on muslims to behave. Implicitly, he then lumps them all together. Seen worse, but he does.
    Who is it that Friedman "attacks" here?
    Difficult to say. He shifts between reasonable questions and demanding things from "muslims" all over the place. Most of all "muslim apologists" perhaps?

    I'm not butchering the piece, as I said, there are some legitimate questions in there. I just highlight some of the parts and arguments he uses I dont agree with, and suggests an answer to his rhetorical question he doesn't present himself. I dont buy his position, but I can understand some of his points and questions.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
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