Religious Fundamentalism, the biggest lie of our time

NCfan

"The biggest lie of our time is that fundamentalism is the only authentic expression of religious faith. In my view, it is often the least authentic."
- Andrew Sullivan

I wish people would understand this...

RockinInCanada

NCfan wrote:

"The biggest lie of our time is that fundamentalism is the only authentic expression of religious faith. In my view, it is often the least authentic."
- Andrew Sullivan

I wish people would understand this...

On both sides...be it Christian/Muslim/Jewish/insert your organization here.....

NCfan

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

On both sides...be it Christian/Muslim/Jewish/insert your organization here.....

Absolutely, nobody gets a pass. Seeing footage of a Christian youth group in the bible belt, with a bunch of 15 year olds singing and crying with eyes closed and arms up in the air in a trance-like state freaks me out as much as an angry Muslim crowd in the Middle East screaming, shaking their fists and burning shit down.

Everybody needs to wise up!

angelica

the quote says: "The biggest lie of our time is that fundamentalism is the only authentic expression of religious faith. In my view, it is often the least authentic."

The quote does not state fundamentalism is inauthentic. It says essentially that the lie is that fundamentalism is the only authentic expression of religious faith. It also states that in one man's opinion, it is *often* the least authentic.

Neither of these indicates inauthenticity of fundamentalism at all. I can understand why people would agree with the quote, however.

In the end one person's wisening up is another's being stupid.

dkst0426

NCfan wrote:

Absolutely, nobody gets a pass. Seeing footage of a Christian youth group in the bible belt, with a bunch of 15 year olds singing and crying with eyes closed and arms up in the air in a trance-like state freaks me out as much as an angry Muslim crowd in the Middle East screaming, shaking their fists and burning shit down.

Everybody needs to wise up!

Yes, because we all know that teenagers worshipping is right up there on the list next to public rioting and vandalism.

Out of the all the sweeping generalizations that tend to be made in topics like these, that has to be one of the sweepingest I've read yet.

chopitdown

NCfan wrote:

Absolutely, nobody gets a pass. Seeing footage of a Christian youth group in the bible belt, with a bunch of 15 year olds singing and crying with eyes closed and arms up in the air in a trance-like state freaks me out as much as an angry Muslim crowd in the Middle East screaming, shaking their fists and burning shit down.

Everybody needs to wise up!

andrew sullivan is a catholic

The Illinoisemakers

NCfan wrote:

Absolutely, nobody gets a pass. Seeing footage of a Christian youth group in the bible belt, with a bunch of 15 year olds singing and crying with eyes closed and arms up in the air in a trance-like state freaks me out as much as an angry Muslim crowd in the Middle East screaming, shaking their fists and burning shit down.

Everybody needs to wise up!

Yeah it freaks me out too, because most the the time after their done praying they go out and load up their rocket launchers and fire a couple of Katuyshas at their local Walmart. Give me a break. If it really bothers you that other people have a faith, just don't put yourself in situations where you have to be witness to such "freakish" behavior. Care to elaborate on your wise up comment, because I don't get it.

NCfan

dkst0426 wrote:

Yes, because we all know that teenagers worshipping is right up there on the list next to public rioting and vandalism.

Out of the all the sweeping generalizations that tend to be made in topics like these, that has to be one of the sweepingest I've read yet.

Sorry if I offend... I realize that isn't very PC. It just freaks me out that's all... The aspect that bothers me is the age of the worshipers. There are many more influences in a young person's life, besides the obvious lack of life experience to cloud their judgement.

While a strong faith is very beneficial for a young person, I think - it can also be a source of resentment when they become older. Maybe that is my story, and where I'm coming from.

hippiemom

NCfan wrote:

Absolutely, nobody gets a pass. Seeing footage of a Christian youth group in the bible belt, with a bunch of 15 year olds singing and crying with eyes closed and arms up in the air in a trance-like state freaks me out as much as an angry Muslim crowd in the Middle East screaming, shaking their fists and burning shit down.

This is what I love about this place ... we can all disagree about everything all the time, but if you stick around long enough you'll eventually find some common ground with just about everyone too. Look at this, NCfan and hippiemom in perfect agreement

dkst0426

NCfan wrote:

Sorry if I offend... I realize that isn't very PC. It just freaks me out that's all... The aspect that bothers me is the age of the worshipers. There are many more influences in a young person's life, besides the obvious lack of life experience to cloud their judgement.

It's not as if there are many people known for youth ministry speaking going around preaching for young Christians to take up arms. You're right--there are many more influences in a young person's life--that is exactly what youth ministry today is trying to counter. Not because youth ministers want Christian youth to stick their heads in the sand and pretend what's out there isn't out there and to be a part of it is evil/sinful/wrong. No, the struggle to counter those influences is because a lot of those influences are negative.

While a strong faith is very beneficial for a young person, I think - it can also be a source of resentment when they become older. Maybe that is my story, and where I'm coming from.

Perhaps. I've been a lifelong Christian and my faith has helped me more than become a source of resentment as I've gotten older.

Cosmo

I don't know if Fundamentalist relegious beliefs are the problem... like, if someone wants to live their life according to the exact tennents set forth in a holy book... I'm cool with that.
It's when HIS fundamentalist beliefs are interpreted to MY life... that's when I have a problem with it. If his beliefs call for my behaviour to fit his approval or if his beliefs call for my destruction... then, yeah, he's going to be in trouble because I'm not going down without a fight.

jsand

Cosmo wrote:

I don't know if Fundamentalist relegious beliefs are the problem... like, if someone wants to live their life according to the exact tennents set forth in a holy book... I'm cool with that.
It's when HIS fundamentalist beliefs are interpreted to MY life... that's when I have a problem with it. If his beliefs call for my behaviour to fit his approval or if his beliefs call for my destruction... then, yeah, he's going to be in trouble because I'm not going down without a fight.

Couldn't agree more.

angelica

Cosmo wrote:

I don't know if Fundamentalist relegious beliefs are the problem... like, if someone wants to live their life according to the exact tennents set forth in a holy book... I'm cool with that.
It's when HIS fundamentalist beliefs are interpreted to MY life... that's when I have a problem with it. If his beliefs call for my behaviour to fit his approval or if his beliefs call for my destruction... then, yeah, he's going to be in trouble because I'm not going down without a fight.

Very perceptive and discerningly reasonable imo.

Spartanacus

I hear what you're saying NCfan. And I think if we had the choice, we'd all obviously favor the "bible belt thumping touch my forehead and I instantly fall down and weep wackos" over the kids throwing rocks in the ME...but that's only because the former are non-violent...unless you count self inflicted bruises from hitting the floor so hard when their con-men/preachers punch them in the skull.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...there's nothing wrong with a little faith...but "little" is the key word. In excess, most everything on Earth is a bad thing...the one exception possibly being love of LIVING things (not love for dieties, etc.).

On an international scale "religion" does more harm than good.

My one commandment is...

DO THE RIGHT THING!!!

callen

NCfan wrote:

Sorry if I offend... I realize that isn't very PC. It just freaks me out that's all... The aspect that bothers me is the age of the worshipers. There are many more influences in a young person's life, besides the obvious lack of life experience to cloud their judgement.

While a strong faith is very beneficial for a young person, I think - it can also be a source of resentment when they become older. Maybe that is my story, and where I'm coming from.

It freaks me out as well......and I also see this behavior mirroring the fanatisicm in the Middle East.

jsand

callen wrote:

It freaks me out as well......and I also see this behavior mirroring the fanatisicm in the Middle East.

"Mirroring the fanaticism in the Middle East"? How so?

inmytree

NCfan wrote:

Sorry if I offend... I realize that isn't very PC. It just freaks me out that's all... The aspect that bothers me is the age of the worshipers. There are many more influences in a young person's life, besides the obvious lack of life experience to cloud their judgement.

While a strong faith is very beneficial for a young person, I think - it can also be a source of resentment when they become older. Maybe that is my story, and where I'm coming from.

nicely put...:)

I watched a show last night called "Spotlight: American Virgins"

http://www.worldlinktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=virgins

the head of the "Silver Ring Thing" (a faith based program that teaches abstinence only) truly scared me...he stated he was looking forward to "rapture"...and he's "ready"...it's a shame my tax dollars go to fund his program, which is based on fear and guilt..

angelica

NCfan wrote:

While a strong faith is very beneficial for a young person, I think - it can also be a source of resentment when they become older.

This is certainly the case for many who resent aspects of their religious upbringing. What is super cool, though, is when one can truly reconcile who they are with their own personal version of their most highest ideals. By doing so, one learns how to lay to rest such resentments and one comes to understand that what once worked also can become something we outgrow--such is life. The at-one-ment we achieve through this inner resolution/reconciliation--this dissolving of resentment--can be very liberating and empowering. It's not easier redefining and coming into our true or higher self, beyond what we've been taught to be. It is amazing, though.

NCfan

There is a lot I could write on this, but I will just some it up like this...

I admire people with very strong faith. Understand that the younger you are, the easier it is to sustain a strong faith.

But with a strong faith comes the challenge to understand that the world is larger than religion. And so religious people must work to fit their views/actions into society, not the other way around.

This is something that young and strongly religious people are ignorant about - and in some cases shielded from. It's with age that the world truly starts to collide with your faith.

Some people outright reject their religion when this happens, others learn to balance the two - but the most dangerous are the ones who reject the world.

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

"The biggest lie of our time is that fundamentalism is the only authentic expression of religious faith. In my view, it is often the least authentic."
- Andrew Sullivan

I wish people would understand this...

I wish people would stop using things they know nothing about as an excuse for all their problems

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

I wish people would stop using things they know nothing about as an excuse for all their problems

Is that directed at me?

Pearl Jam and toast

dkst0426 wrote:

Yes, because we all know that teenagers worshipping is right up there on the list next to public rioting and vandalism.

Out of the all the sweeping generalizations that tend to be made in topics like these, that has to be one of the sweepingest I've read yet.

yes it is sweeping, but understand what that looks like to non-christians.

It looks like a cult.

angelica

NCfan wrote:

... the most dangerous are the ones who reject the world.

Are you so sure that the world you see is what you see? Do you know what that world is outside your opinion of it? Are you sure your own inner "beliefs" don't already have you putting your "faith" in an illusion?



""We do not see the 'space of the world', we live our field of vision projected by incoming connections from all over the brain. Since reality and its cognition are a mode of operation of the nervous system as a closed neural network, perception and illusion are indistinguishable. There is no independently existing objective reality. The world everyone sees is not THE world but A world which we bring forth with others."
- Excerpted from a lecture by Umberto Maturana, biologist


"The world of time and space is a projection."
- Robert Monroe in Omni, October '93


"There is always a triple correspondence -
(a) a mental image, which is in our minds and not in the external world
(b) some kind of counterpart in the external world, which is of inscrutable nature
c) a set of pointer readings, which exact science can study and connect with other pointer readings."
"To put the conclusion crudely - the stuff of the world is mind-stuff."
- Sir Arthur Eddington, astrophysicist, famous for his work regarding the theory of relativity.


"...The past has no existence except as it is recorded in the present."
- John A. Wheeler, theoretical physicist, currently a professor emeritus of Princeton University in New Jersey.


"Cyril Hinshelwood, a Nobel Laureate in physical chemistry has suggested that a more appropriate name for the particles (of elementary physics) might be 'manifestations'."
- Lyall Watson,renowned biologist and author


"...We ourselves can bring into existence only very small-scale properties like the spin of the electron. Might it require intelligent beings 'more conscious' than ourselves to bring into existence the electrons and other particles?"
Barrow and Tipler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle

"There is no world at large - only a description of the world which we have learned to visualize and take for granted." We live in a bubble, the bubble of our perception "and what we witness on its round walls is our own reflection."
- Don Juan [from Carlos Castenada]

angelica

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

yes it is sweeping, but understand what that looks like to non-christians.

It looks like a cult.

What you see is not necessarily the truth. People are responsible for their actions, not your interpretation. You are responsible for your interpretation or any biases you hold.

Pearl Jam and toast

angelica wrote:

What you see is not necessarily the truth. People are responsible for their actions, not your interpretation. You are responsible for your interpretation or any biases you hold.

Yep.

But you have to understand the other side as much as that side needs to understand you.

Imagine how ridiculous it would look if you were an atheist.

NCfan

angelica wrote:

Are you so sure that the world you see is what you see? Do you know what that world is outside your opinion of it? Are you sure your own inner "beliefs" don't already have you putting your "faith" in an illusion?



""We do not see the 'space of the world', we live our field of vision projected by incoming connections from all over the brain. Since reality and its cognition are a mode of operation of the nervous system as a closed neural network, perception and illusion are indistinguishable. There is no independently existing objective reality. The world everyone sees is not THE world but A world which we bring forth with others."
- Excerpted from a lecture by Umberto Maturana, biologist


"The world of time and space is a projection."
- Robert Monroe in Omni, October '93


"There is always a triple correspondence -
(a) a mental image, which is in our minds and not in the external world
(b) some kind of counterpart in the external world, which is of inscrutable nature
c) a set of pointer readings, which exact science can study and connect with other pointer readings."
"To put the conclusion crudely - the stuff of the world is mind-stuff."
- Sir Arthur Eddington, astrophysicist, famous for his work regarding the theory of relativity.


"...The past has no existence except as it is recorded in the present."
- John A. Wheeler, theoretical physicist, currently a professor emeritus of Princeton University in New Jersey.


"Cyril Hinshelwood, a Nobel Laureate in physical chemistry has suggested that a more appropriate name for the particles (of elementary physics) might be 'manifestations'."
- Lyall Watson,renowned biologist and author


"...We ourselves can bring into existence only very small-scale properties like the spin of the electron. Might it require intelligent beings 'more conscious' than ourselves to bring into existence the electrons and other particles?"
Barrow and Tipler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle

"There is no world at large - only a description of the world which we have learned to visualize and take for granted." We live in a bubble, the bubble of our perception "and what we witness on its round walls is our own reflection."
- Don Juan [from Carlos Castenada]

No I'm not so sure. But that is all the more reason to follow the creed "to each his own" and not force a religious belief on others. Who really knows what is right in that respect? That is why it's called "faith".

dkst0426

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

yes it is sweeping, but understand what that looks like to non-christians.

It looks like a cult.

A lot of things look strange and undesirable to us upon viewing. How much would one care to find it about it? The amount of knowledge and understanding is in inverse proportion to the type of generalizations that get made.

Pearl Jam and toast

dkst0426 wrote:

A lot of things look strange and undesirable to us upon viewing. How much would one care to find it about it? The amount of knowledge and understanding is in inverse proportion to the type of generalizations that get made.

I know what you're saying.

Cmon, you know how it is if you do indeed live in my state

I'm pretty experienced with Christianity.. even went to a church day care for a few summers when i was smaller where they had a service with us every day.

But it honestly seems like a cult to me sometimes. Just a very popular one.

But anyway, i was just clarifying what I thought that guy meant.

dkst0426

NCfan wrote:

There is a lot I could write on this, but I will just some it up like this...

I admire people with very strong faith. Understand that the younger you are, the easier it is to sustain a strong faith.

But with a strong faith comes the challenge to understand that the world is larger than religion. And so religious people must work to fit their views/actions into society, not the other way around.

This is something that young and strongly religious people are ignorant about - and in some cases shielded from. It's with age that the world truly starts to collide with your faith.

Some people outright reject their religion when this happens, others learn to balance the two - but the most dangerous are the ones who reject the world.

That's what they said about Jesus, too, and that's whom I've chosen to put my faith in as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. I appreciate your thoughts on faith, but as you would challenge a faithful Christian to understand that the world is larger than their religion, I as a Christian likewise challenge you to understand that what we believe in asks us to look at the world outside our church doors and respond by being IN the world, not OF it.

inmytree

dkst0426 wrote:

That's what they said about Jesus, too, and that's whom I've chosen to put my faith in as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. I appreciate your thoughts on faith, but as you would challenge a faithful Christian to understand that the world is larger than their religion, I as a Christian likewise challenge you to understand that what we believe in asks us to look at the world outside our church doors and respond by being IN the world, not OF it.

good for you...if it makes you happy, great...but don't be upset when I don't subscribe to what you are selling...

NCfan

dkst0426 wrote:

That's what they said about Jesus, too, and that's whom I've chosen to put my faith in as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. I appreciate your thoughts on faith, but as you would challenge a faithful Christian to understand that the world is larger than their religion, I as a Christian likewise challenge you to understand that what we believe in asks us to look at the world outside our church doors and respond by being IN the world, not OF it.

I guess it might surprise you that I am a Christian, how about a doubting Christian... but I am well aware, as I was raised in a strict Southern Baptist church in rural North Carolina.

I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make saying "being IN the world, not of it."