When does it become necessary?

NCfan

I was watching the CBS evening news last night and was struck by a story about forensic scientist in Iraq doing work on the mass graves they are uncovering there.

The parity of Iraq under Saddam and other dysfunctional Middle Eastern countries really hit me when compared with the West.

As much as people on this message board love to bash America, democracy and capitalism - there is one thing you guys can't dispute. Shit like these mass graves DOES NOT HAPPEN IN AMERICA!!! Hell it doesn't happen in other democratic countries either.

Sure, our government has exploited it's citizens and trampled in the affairs of other countries to make a buck. But Uncle Sam does not round up hundreds of women and children in the night and murder them in huge pits. However, this type of shit happens all the time in the Middle East.

I was reading just the other day on Andrew Sullivan's web site where two Iranian teenage boys were hung because they were gay.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I REALIZE it's hard to change people at the point of a gun, but when does that become necessary for the survival of the rest of humanity? Are these people going to catch on by themselves or does it take armed conflict? What would happen if the religous fundamentalist took control. The area would actually go backwards, while the rest of the world is barreling into the future at an unbelievable pace.

You basically have one culture working to land humans on Mars, and another that adheres to such strict religous codes that they couldn't produce penecilin.

I think many people in the Middle East want to change. But I also concede there are many traditionalist that want outside influence to leave them alone.

So the rub is this... the Middle East needs to change - period. The culture over there is breeding ignorance and religous bigotry like crazy. What are countries that have already evolved through this supposed to do? Europe has lived through and survived its hundreds of years with the Catholic Inquisition.

America struggled with the issue of slavery for a few hundred years, and then racial and gender inequality afterwards. Now we are facing a struggle by homosexuals for their rights among others.

But there is a large faction in the Middle East that will stop at nothing short of blowing themselves up to keep that region from evolving. You have many, many corrupt leaders who are pathetically rich and privileged from oil revenue who need the status quo, and then you have the poor masses that are basically ignorant to the ways of the outside world, and are scared of change because we’re all scared of change at heart – that is just being human. And the less educated and worldly you are, the more scared you will be.
You also have the religious fanatics, who not only resist Western influences and change, but want to actually unite that region under their fucked up hard-line and intolerant views.

It’s just common sense that not all countries are going to evolve at the same time. So what are the responsibilities of those countries who have already learned from the same mistakes that others are currently mired in?

mammasan

NCfan wrote:

I was watching the CBS evening news last night and was struck by a story about forensic scientist in Iraq doing work on the mass graves they are uncovering there.

The parity of Iraq under Saddam and other dysfunctional Middle Eastern countries really hit me when compared with the West.

As much as people on this message board love to bash America, democracy and capitalism - there is one thing you guys can't dispute. Shit like these mass graves DOES NOT HAPPEN IN AMERICA!!! Hell it doesn't happen in other democratic countries either.

Sure, our government has exploited it's citizens and trampled in the affairs of other countries to make a buck. But Uncle Sam does not round up hundreds of women and children in the night and murder them in huge pits. However, this type of shit happens all the time in the Middle East.

I was reading just the other day on Andrew Sullivan's web site where two Iranian teenage boys were hung because they were gay.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I REALIZE it's hard to change people at the point of a gun, but when does that become necessary for the survival of the rest of humanity? Are these people going to catch on by themselves or does it take armed conflict? What would happen if the religous fundamentalist took control. The area would actually go backwards, while the rest of the world is barreling into the future at an unbelievable pace.

You basically have one culture working to land humans on Mars, and another that adheres to such strict religous codes that they couldn't produce penecilin.

I think many people in the Middle East want to change. But I also concede there are many traditionalist that want outside influence to leave them alone.

So the rub is this... the Middle East needs to change - period. The culture over there is breeding ignorance and religous bigotry like crazy. What are countries that have already evolved through this supposed to do? Europe has lived through and survived its hundreds of years with the Catholic Inquisition.

America struggled with the issue of slavery for a few hundred years, and then racial and gender inequality afterwards. Now we are facing a struggle by homosexuals for their rights among others.

But there is a large faction in the Middle East that will stop at nothing short of blowing themselves up to keep that region from evolving. You have many, many corrupt leaders who are pathetically rich and privileged from oil revenue who need the status quo, and then you have the poor masses that are basically ignorant to the ways of the outside world, and are scared of change because we’re all scared of change at heart – that is just being human. And the less educated and worldly you are, the more scared you will be.
You also have the religious fanatics, who not only resist Western influences and change, but want to actually unite that region under their fucked up hard-line and intolerant views.

It’s just common sense that not all countries are going to evolve at the same time. So what are the responsibilities of those countries who have already learned from the same mistakes that others are currently mired in?

Good points, my only objections is that it is not our job to force our ways upon these people. I agree that our democracy is lifetimes better that some fundamentalist dictatorship, but you cannot spread democracy by force. I'll elaborate on this when I have a couple of more minutes, but I'm running off to a meeting right now.

Nevermind

I think ground zero is its own mass grave that our government made.

decides2dream

mammasan wrote:

Good points, my only objections is that it is not our job to force our ways upon these people. I agree that our democracy is lifetimes better that some fundamentalist dictatorship, but you cannot spread democracy by force.

well said.
i don't think 'forcing' any ideas is ever a good one, even if we think our ideas are 'better'...it's not our call, not our lives. if someone askes for help, that is entirely a different story. i am not a believer in 'spreading democracy'...almost sounds like the relgious crusades.....if democracy is wanted, it will get there, but let it be CHOSEN first.

NCfan

decides2dream wrote:

well said.
i don't think 'forcing' any ideas is ever a good one, even if we think our ideas are 'better'...it's not our call, not our lives. if someone askes for help, that is entirely a different story. i am not a believer in 'spreading democracy'...almost sounds like the relgious crusades.....if democracy is wanted, it will get there, but let it be CHOSEN first.

Well I agree with you 100% in theory. But the technology of the 21st century is changing that. To say the world is connected now is an understatment.

Not only are countries interacting and effecting each other more than ever, but individuals are affecting others too. We are all more impowered, and that is not a good thing when it comes to fanatics.

So it doesn't make sense to hold an isolationist view or policy. I guess I believe that many of the world's problems are cuased by massive disparity. Well this disparity is only going to grow and grow, which will cause more and bigger problems.

a few dozen fanatics changed the mindset and attitudes of a few hundred million people on 9/11. I believe that groups have the power to change our democracies and ways of living.

I guess I feel the time to act is now, while we have the power to do so.

decides2dream

personally, i have to disagree. sure, defend ourselves if/when necessary...but no...i am not all for this 'spread democracy' across the world stuff. again, imo, it's their life too..who am i to say how they should live it? i definitely am of the 'live and let live' attitude. i have zero desire to go on the offense, certainly unprovoked....let people make their own choices and BE. but hey, that's just me..you may well get your wish.

RockinInCanada

Our history in the west is the way it is because we choose it to be that way....In America that is why the forefathers rose up...wanted something they believed in...I totally agree with you NCfan...I cannot imagine living over there...I had a realization yesterday as well...while watching a show about Muslim women in Pakistan, particulary in rural areas where the Quran is practically the law...I cannot fathom how these women get through with their lives...it may be choice but at the same time they have no choice or face penalties...its sad and frustrating watching as an observer...but that is the position we have been dealt...as much as we may think our lives our better than theirs' we should not interfere and cause them change...they should develop their own change...but then again when do we say that their treatment is beyond compromise...such a delicate line.....its tough watching those people...I feel bad for so many over there....you want to help yet you can't beacuse then it turns into something like....Iraq for example...

NCfan

decides2dream wrote:

personally, i have to disagree. sure, defend ourselves if/when necessary...but no...i am not all for this 'spread democracy' across the world stuff. again, imo, it's their life too..who am i to say how they should live it? i definitely am of the 'live and let live' attitude. i have zero desire to go on the offense, certainly unprovoked....let people make their own choices and BE. but hey, that's just me..you may well get your wish.

That's cool, I can respect that.

farfromglorified

mammasan wrote:

Originally Posted by mammasan
Good points, my only objections is that it is not our job to force our ways upon these people. I agree that our democracy is lifetimes better that some fundamentalist dictatorship, but you cannot spread democracy by force.

decides2dream wrote:

well said.
i don't think 'forcing' any ideas is ever a good one, even if we think our ideas are 'better'...it's not our call, not our lives. if someone askes for help, that is entirely a different story. i am not a believer in 'spreading democracy'...almost sounds like the relgious crusades.....if democracy is wanted, it will get there, but let it be CHOSEN first.

These posts made me smile.

PaperPlates

Fuck em! He he he!

rightondude

Gotta clean up the middle east somehow. The nice thing about a dead guy is that you can speak for him after he is dead and he can't say a word about it.

yeah...Shock and awe baby

Swoosh! goes Bushies oil powered boomstick...

Number 18

Remember also that Saddam Hussein was our ally when he was digging and filling those graves. We supported him in his war against Iran in the 80's as well as long before.

Cosmo

Why is it up to us... to make the change? Who put us in charge of how everyone should be? If the conditions in the Middle East are as fucked up for the masses as you claim they are... shouldn't THEY be the ones to initiate the process for change? I don't want to be the world's cops because most of the world is fucked up.
...
Like, do you think it's okay for Europe to come over here and tell us that the Death Penalty is bad and that if we didn't change it, they would change it for us? You wouldn't have a problem with that?

NCfan

Cosmo wrote:

Why is it up to us... to make the change? Who put us in charge of how everyone should be? If the conditions in the Middle East are as fucked up for the masses as you claim they are... shouldn't THEY be the ones to initiate the process for change? I don't want to be the world's cops because most of the world is fucked up.
...
Like, do you think it's okay for Europe to come over here and tell us that the Death Penalty is bad and that if we didn't change it, they would change it for us? You wouldn't have a problem with that?

Nobody put us in charge, I don't think that God or some divine being has empowered America and wants us to change the world.

But it is shear reality that the U.S. is in fact the biggest stabilizing force in the world. We create stability for others. And we also have the ability to create change through many different avenues - economic pressure, mititary action, example, diplomacy.

I'm only speaking for myself, I'm not advocating the GOP or Bush or any of that shit. But I think we should try to end state sponsored oppression. I don't want to make everybody in the world buy Nikes and drink Coke. I believe that our society is too decadant and fucks our kids up by the worship of material and celebrity.

That being said, our kids also have freedom and human rights. I think that if everybody had this equality than the disparity would dimminish significantly. I'm not speaking here of wealth necessarily, I'm speaking of disparity in life choices, education, social tolerance and opportunity.

I think that if all countries provided and ensured those things for their citizens that a lot of resentment would diminish for those that have them.

El_Kabong

NCfan wrote:

As much as people on this message board love to bash America, democracy and capitalism - there is one thing you guys can't dispute. Shit like these mass graves DOES NOT HAPPEN IN AMERICA!!! Hell it doesn't happen in other democratic countries either.

maybe not IN america but we are responsable for mass graves in other parts of the world...the pentagon even admitted in the invasion of panama they dumped 'some number of bodies in the same grave'

they also admitted over 75% of the casulties were civilians

NCfan

El_Kabong wrote:

maybe not IN america but we are responsable for mass graves in other parts of the world...the pentagon even admitted in the invasion of panama they dumped 'some number of bodies in the same grave'

they also admitted over 75% of the casulties were civilians

And so that proves what? Are you trying to say that we are no better than Saddam's regime?

keeponrockin

I do not think it is our job to change the world right now. We got our own problems.

El_Kabong

NCfan wrote:

And so that proves what? Are you trying to say that we are no better than Saddam's regime?

it proves that you were wrong

NCfan

El_Kabong wrote:

it proves that you were wrong

How so? I said that things like mass graves do not happen in the U.S. or other democracies.

I don't see where accidentally killing some civillians in Panama in the 80's equates to disproving what I said.

Even if there are a few exceptions, it's still the rule. Saying otherwise is just grasping at straws.

I talk about the constant and purpose torture, jailing and murder of innocent civillians in Iraq by their own government and you try to compare the U.S. to that with a lame example in Panama...

Can't you just admit that the U.S. is not like that?

hippiemom

NCfan wrote:

Nobody put us in charge, I don't think that God or some divine being has empowered America and wants us to change the world.

But it is shear reality that the U.S. is in fact the biggest stabilizing force in the world. We create stability for others. And we also have the ability to create change through many different avenues - economic pressure, mititary action, example, diplomacy.

I'm only speaking for myself, I'm not advocating the GOP or Bush or any of that shit. But I think we should try to end state sponsored oppression. I don't want to make everybody in the world buy Nikes and drink Coke. I believe that our society is too decadant and fucks our kids up by the worship of material and celebrity.

That being said, our kids also have freedom and human rights. I think that if everybody had this equality than the disparity would dimminish significantly. I'm not speaking here of wealth necessarily, I'm speaking of disparity in life choices, education, social tolerance and opportunity.

I think that if all countries provided and ensured those things for their citizens that a lot of resentment would diminish for those that have them.

Other cultures are not like ours, and they don't want to be. Democracy in Iraq is not going to lead to "life choices, education, social tolerance and opportunity." That's not what they want. Choices will be limited, education will likely not be provided to women, social tolerance ... well, let's just say that's not a concept that they're terribly familiar with.

So we're creating a debt that our great-grandchildren will be paying off, and Americans and Iraqisare dying left and right, for what? They're not going to wind up with anything remotely resembling what you and I think of as a democracy. It's quite possible we could find ourselves dealing with a country that's more troublesome to us than Saddam's Iraq ever was.

I think it would be nice if all countries respected basic human rights too, but I don't think we can make that happen. Hell, we can't even make it happen in our own country. Yes, we treat people better than Saddam did, but a nation that can now imprison people indefinitely without a hearing, without allowing them so much as a phone call, has no business trying to introduce a concept of "human rights" to anyone else.

Milhouse VanHouten

NCfan wrote:

I talk about the constant and purpose torture, jailing and murder of innocent civillians in Iraq by their own government and you try to compare the U.S. to that with a lame example in Panama...

Can't you just admit that the U.S. is not like that?

The arguement that "the U.S. is not like that" only holds water if you look at what we do within our own borders to our own citizens. The shit we've facilitated and have done to civilians in other countries is pretty fucking heinous. I'm not sure how violating the rights of only non-Americans makes it acceptable.