Islam versus the World

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  • Restless Soul
    Restless Soul Posts: 805
    well, talk about a biased article!

    It's funny though, I'm currently reading (or ploughing through, more like) a book called The Historian by Elizabeth Kostova, a lot of which talks a lot about that time period of the fifteenth century when the Ottoman empire spread its wings across Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria etc.

    Sultan Mehmed (II) was responsible for a lot of that including the conquering of Constantinople, and a lot of atrocities were committed on both sides. (You might be interested to know that he also fought Vlad the Impaler of Romania at the time, otherwise known as Dracula!).

    Anyway, according to the book, under Sultan Mehmed's rule, once the Ottomans took hold of the area, they actually left a lot of the christian churches alone and let the conquered christians worship as usual. They were quite congenial to them after the conquering was done. Not that this excuses it as I'm against all empire-building on principle. But I guess, people don't really hear both sides in normal reporting.
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  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Scubascott wrote:
    What a load of shite. The essay failed to mention that the Aya Sofia was built by the Romans, who invaded and conquered Turkey by force, introducing christianity along the way.

    The Romans believed in the state religion: the gods and goddesses. When Christianity was introduced, it turned the Roman Empire into a shadow of what it had been. It was the state religion that enabled the Romans to be imperial.

    Constantine may have allowed Christianity to flourish but even he cannot be considered a Christian by any standard.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Islam is, by its admitted theology, opposed to diversity of thought and rationalism. According to the imams, the marketplace of ideas is limited to the koran and islamic texts only.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Islam is, by its admitted theology, opposed to diversity of thought and rationalism. According to the imams, the marketplace of ideas is limited to the koran and islamic texts only.
    Not too different from the other monotheistic religions then. Rationalism is hardly the territory of religion, and the point of most religions is to spread their way of thought, and be opposed to other ways. Islam has their share of Koran-thumpers, just like Christianity has. A bit more of them perhaps, but no qualitative difference.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    NCfan wrote:
    Not sure how you can scorn jihadists and yawn at the notion that radical Islam and the West have mutually exlusive goals for the future of mankind.
    I yawn that "muslims" and "the west" is at all groups that can be labelled and interpreted is internally homogenous with one purpose, one mind. Jihadists are there, they are wacked out followers of some radical distorted interpretation of Islam. They are dangerous and complete fuckheads. And they have precious little to do with a view of Islam vs the west, that throws everything muslim together and evrything western together.
    Conflict is imminent. Do you think either side is going to change their mind? Do you think either side is going to abandon their traditions? Do you think there is a compromise to be had? Each side is going to continue to grow and strengthen. Iran and Saudi Arabia are both theocracies that force Sharia law on their citizens. The ranks of states like these is growing. The ideology of radical Islam is growing. It's just natural that these two cultures are going to clash.... i don't see how they can't. Maybe you can explain to me how we can all just live together and get along fine. I don't see it happening, but I'm open to ideas.
    The "sides" are highly constructed and sensationalized. And the fear-mongering that many are trying to build on this reminds me of a lot of texts concerning jews in the early 1900s... WE have to take THEM out before THEY come and kill US and eat our children in the night or something like that. I am utterly unimpressed.
    I just don't see how part of the world can send humans to space, continue the progress of the Enlightenment, heal our sick with advanced medicine, feed our poor and extend to our citizens the opportunity to determine their own destiny...... while another part of the world FORCES people to believe in one fundamental religion, neglect the rights of women, persecute intelectuals, kill homosexuals, promote honor killings, gender apartied, female circumcison, etc....
    Never mind the first part used to do that too until not too long ago, and the first part of the world is sucking to itself all the riches of the world to enable them to do these feats.
    Again, maybe you know how the U.S. can except this ideology (that encompasses all the things and more) and allow it to spread in the world....
    The US probably wont. You never really consider if it actually would be worse to intervene than to just stay out of it and quietly support anti-regime forces. Nevermind how the US have been central in putting up and maintaining those regimes you mentioned. Saudi Arabia can do what they do with US protection of their rulers, and Iran going fundamentalist was a more or less direct result of US meddling and deposing of a secular prime minister. So, I dunno, with that track record, should you do anything? But beside the point really.

    The point of the article more than anything else seemed to be whining from a religious man that christianity don't have control like that anymore, and he was jealous at the islamic countries where religion still plays a more important part. Revisionist and superficial historical accounts does not make it better.

    If you want to construct an enemy to hate and fear, well go traight ahead. Blur and erase the line between islamist jihadis and islam wherever you see fit to fuel that view. Promote war on the entire islamic world. Just go ahead. I'm sure it helps a ton.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Scubascott
    Scubascott Posts: 815
    miller8966 wrote:
    Imo we should reclaim constantinople.

    I think its funny how you obviously posted this obnoxious comment to provoke a response from anyone dumb enough to bite, and nobody did.
    It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

    -C Addison
  • miller8966
    miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Restless Soul wrote:
    well, talk about a biased article!

    It's funny though, I'm currently reading (or ploughing through, more like) a book called The Historian by Elizabeth Kostova, a lot of which talks a lot about that time period of the fifteenth century when the Ottoman empire spread its wings across Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria etc.

    Sultan Mehmed (II) was responsible for a lot of that including the conquering of Constantinople, and a lot of atrocities were committed on both sides. (You might be interested to know that he also fought Vlad the Impaler of Romania at the time, otherwise known as Dracula!).

    Anyway, according to the book, under Sultan Mehmed's rule, once the Ottomans took hold of the area, they actually left a lot of the christian churches alone and let the conquered christians worship as usual. They were quite congenial to them after the conquering was done. Not that this excuses it as I'm against all empire-building on principle. But I guess, people don't really hear both sides in normal reporting.

    How was the book actually. Senir year of college i was reading it and couldnt finish it due to work obligations.

    Is it worth finishing? It kind of seems like a Davinci code rip off.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • Dino283
    Dino283 Posts: 81
    im gettin REAL sick of this shit.why dont people let the pope do what the fuck he want's.

    muslim's didnt discover the world.they didnt rule it niether.why dont they fuck off and stay in there own country's and leave the world alone.the world will be better of without them in it.
    I’d thank my lucky stars,
    to be livin here today.
    ‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
    and they can’t take that away.

    And I’m proud to be an American,
    where at least I know I’m free.
    And I wont forget the men who died,
    who gave that right to me.
  • John Budge
    John Budge Posts: 259
    Dino283 wrote:
    im gettin REAL sick of this shit.why dont people let the pope do what the fuck he want's.

    muslim's didnt discover the world.they didnt rule it niether.why dont they fuck off and stay in there own country's and leave the world alone.the world will be better of without them in it.
    So, you're proposing fucking genocide, man?! Alright!
  • miller8966
    miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    John Budge wrote:
    So, you're proposing fucking genocide, man?! Alright!

    The pope wants genocide?
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • John Budge
    John Budge Posts: 259
    miller8966 wrote:
    The pope wants genocide?
    I don't think so, but fucking Dino283 said the fucking world would be better off without fucking Muslims in it! You fucking dig that shit, man?!
  • Restless Soul
    Restless Soul Posts: 805
    Dino283 wrote:

    muslim's didnt discover the world.they didnt rule it niether.why dont they fuck off and stay in there own country's and leave the world alone.the world will be better of without them in it.

    Are you serious? Americans didn't "discover" the world either, neither did Christians, nor the friggin british no matter how much they want to believe it. It was already there.

    In fact why don't americans stay in america and leave the rest of the world alone? Why don't the british? Why don't the christians? Why don't the multinational companies? Why don't you realise what a crock of crap you are talking about!
    "We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
    ---
    London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
    London, Wembley, 1996
    London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
    London, O2, 18 August 2009
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
    Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
    London, O2, 18 June 2018
    London, O2, 17 July 2018
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



  • Restless Soul
    Restless Soul Posts: 805
    miller8966 wrote:
    How was the book actually. Senir year of college i was reading it and couldnt finish it due to work obligations.

    Is it worth finishing? It kind of seems like a Davinci code rip off.


    I could write a book about this book, good and bad, lol. I don't know whether the author intended this to be a proper piece of fiction with a bit of mystery from the academic world thrown in (a la da vinci-style), or a piece of academia with a bit of a story wound around it, because there's so much focus on the actual research the characters do and all the endless bits of paper they are constantly uncovering! I can see why it seems like a rip-off but its so much better written than dan brown's stuff.

    It IS an interesting read though because there's a lot to learn from it such as the Ottoman stuff, and I like the parallel stories of the girl and her dad, but its very long. There's not enough story on the girl though which is disappointing. I can see it becoming a movie even because the storyline is actually quite good but there's a whole middle "researchy" section that could easily have been condensed tighter because it just drags on a bit. I'm near the end though so it better be worth it !
    "We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
    ---
    London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
    London, Wembley, 1996
    London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
    London, O2, 18 August 2009
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
    Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
    London, O2, 18 June 2018
    London, O2, 17 July 2018
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



  • enharmonic
    enharmonic Posts: 1,917
    Scubascott wrote:
    What a load of shite. The essay failed to mention that the Aya Sofia was built by the Romans, who invaded and conquered Turkey by force, introducing christianity along the way.

    BINGO!

    Ilike how for the most part, Christianity is painted as some benevolent religion that existed in all parts of the world since the dawn of civilization.

    Lets see how the christians like being "converted" by Muslim invaders! LOL

    Karma...Christianity as a system would do well to learn a thing or two about karma.
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  • kenny olav
    kenny olav Posts: 3,319
    NCfan wrote:
    Contrast such Islamic intolerance with the tolerance granted Muslims in regards to their Aqsa mosque. Just as with emperor Justinian’s Hagia Sophia annexed by Islam, the Aqsa Mosque is a Muslim site annexed by Judaism. But unlike the permanent Muslim desecration of Hagia Sophia, one of Christendom’s holiest sites, after Israel’s victory in the 1967 war, the Jews did not deface or convert the Muslim mosque into a Jewish synagogue or temple — even though the Aqsa mosque is deliberately built atop the remains of the Temple Mount, the most important site in Judaeo-Christian eschatology.

    Moreover, since reclaiming the Temple Mount, Israel has granted Muslims control over the Aqsa mosque (except during times of crises).


    If they tried to take down the Aqsa mosque, there would be all out war - the kind that Israel would not be able to win. They would be destroyed. They have to know this. So there's no proof that if they had the chance, they wouldn't tear down the mosque.
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Not too different from the other monotheistic religions then. Rationalism is hardly the territory of religion, and the point of most religions is to spread their way of thought, and be opposed to other ways. Islam has their share of Koran-thumpers, just like Christianity has. A bit more of them perhaps, but no qualitative difference.

    Peace
    Dan

    "The point of most religions is to spread their way of thought, and be opposed to other ways."

    I disagree. I am a Christian. I do not believe that the point of Christianity is to be opposed to other ways of thought. I do not need to prove Islam false in order to prove Christianity is true. I need only prove that Christianity is true. This can be revealed through faith and reason. The point of religions is to explain the purpose for our lives that is not written down in a science book.

    "Rationalism is hardly the territory of religion"

    Some of the greatest scientific discoveries have been made by priests and religious scholars. These leaders discovered scientific truths using the support they received by their faith and church. Religion is not inherently irrational. While making great discoveries, many also believed that Jesus Christ was God or that Muhammad received revelations from the angel Gabriel.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • enharmonic
    enharmonic Posts: 1,917
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    "The point of most religions is to spread their way of thought, and be opposed to other ways."

    I disagree. I am a Christian. I do not believe that the point of Christianity is to be opposed to other ways of thought. I do not need to prove Islam false in order to prove Christianity is true. I need only prove that Christianity is true. This can be revealed through faith and reason. The point of religions is to explain the purpose for our lives that is not written down in a science book.

    "Rationalism is hardly the territory of religion"

    Some of the greatest scientific discoveries have been made by priests and religious scholars. These leaders discovered scientific truths using the support they received by their faith and church. Religion is not inherently irrational. While making great discoveries, many also believed that Jesus Christ was God or that Muhammad received revelations from the angel Gabriel.

    Faith proves nothing. Faith is just that...an innate feeling that something is just "right". Brainwashing can produce the same effect.

    Truth is, there's little evidence to support any parable from any religion, and faith is substituted for fact. It is a fact that organized religion is big business, and that the majority of people have a real need to be controlled...regardless of what they might say to the contrary. There's just a finite supply of truly enlightened people in this world. For everyone else, there's organized religion.

    I'm not saying that its good or bad. Jesus was not a Christian. Muhammad was the profit of Islam, but not a Muslim. The trick of religion is to keep people from aspiring to the Christ or Muhammad consciousness, which God promises is a part of our souls by the simple fact that we exist, and are created by Him.

    that one concept alone renders most organized religion useless. Organized religion places one in worship and servitude to a social doctrine that is twisted into a "religion". The reality is, we are each a part of God, and as such possess the inate ability to attain God consciousness.
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  • Scubascott
    Scubascott Posts: 815
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    If they tried to take down the Aqsa mosque, there would be all out war - the kind that Israel would not be able to win. They would be destroyed. They have to know this. So there's no proof that if they had the chance, they wouldn't tear down the mosque.

    Why would they want to anyway? Politics aside, its a beautiful building and part of the world's cultural hertitage. They're not just going to knock it down for no reason. And what about the hundreds of other mosques scattered throughout Israel? They haven't been knocked down yet either, although I'm sure the Israelis could get away with it if they wanted to.
    It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

    -C Addison
  • IndianSummer
    IndianSummer Posts: 854
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Wow, so everyone has a religion and there are only two religions in the world.
    nope but there are only two proselytysing religions in the world... and these two stop at nothing when it comes to furthering their numbers - carnages, genocides, crusades, battles, sticks - carrots - you name it that have done it.

    nearly wiped out the population of 2.5 continents, destroyed the culture of europe, iran, india, greece, italy, iraq (sumeria, chaldea, mesopotamia), egypt.... words cant describe their carnage and bloodshed....




    comming back to the thread topic..... yes.. islam vs the rest of the world... just as predicted by the prophets of canaan.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
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  • IndianSummer
    IndianSummer Posts: 854
    miller8966 wrote:
    The pope wants genocide?

    it certainly didnt want to stop the genocide of the jews !!

    http://www.tenc.net/vatican/cpixb.htm

    http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/285/priestssalute3ir.jpg

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0306809311
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years

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