A Neocon's critique of Iraq
NCfan
Posts: 945
Gotta say I feel alot like this guy. Especially the part about putting too much faith in Bush & Co.
I'll make a neo-conservative critique of Iraq that is honest. The basic neo-conservative premise for going into Iraq was to effect democratic political and social change in the Arab world and in the Middle East, where the ruling kleptocracies and totalitarian states have crushed all hope in the general population and created a rancid environment in which hate and extremism is rampant. This basic premise - that the root of the problem in the Middle East lies with its dysfunctional ruling classes - is correct as far as it goes. It of course, needs to be more honest and further note that much of the present structure of the Middle East is rooted in its historical culture and social development going back literally thousands of years, and is one in which Islam and its lack of a chuch/state divide is a major contributing factor. Nevertheless, the intervention into Iraq was made with the prospects of bringing, by force and by softer means, a change in this governing ethos in the Middle East.
I still believe in this basic concept, however, I am much chastened by the overweening and unrealistic optimism I and others like me felt at the onset of the Iraq experiment. In particular we were wrong about the place and time for effecting such change. In our hubris, we glossed over in many ways the longterm consequences coming from Saddam Hussein's deposition.
However, the biggest single mistake neoconservatives made was that we placed our faith in the abilities of what has turned out to be a singularly incompetent administration. In the mission's basic planning, forecasting, and execution, this administration has almost uniformly made the wrong choices for Iraq's stabilization and progress. What the leftist and media critics get wrong about Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush is that they screwed up by going in halfhearted and without demanding real sacrifice upfront from the American people. Rumsfeld sacked the Chairman of the JCS for speaking honestly and saying correctly that it would take hundreds of thousands of troops over several years to truly "win" Iraq. That should have been a red flag to us all. But conservatives and a lot of moderates rallied around Bush and Co. because of the unfair attacks from the left and the media, whose objectivity was never in evidence, and in doing so we ratified and enabled every bad decision Bush and Co. made in Iraq.
By the time we realized where we were, it was probably too late to save the experiment in anything but a very watered down version of what it was intended to be: a de facto partitioned Iraq held together by a surged American offensive until the Shiite majority can join the Kurds in securing their territory, and (hopefully) with a growing number of Sunnis deciding to make their way in a Shiite-dominated status quo while the Americans still wield influence over events.
I still have some optimism, very long term, for the Iraq experiment. But it is obvious now that it was a mission chosen by this Administration at the wrong time, in the wrong place and most certainly with the wrong means of bringing about its ultimate accomplishment. In hindsight, we should have gotten Bin Laden first, wiped out the Taliban, forced Pakistan to secure its "wild west territories" either on its own or with the intervention of US troops, and gradually stepped up pressure on Saddam to become a good international citizen. In doing so, we would still be in a position to effect changes in political attitudes in the ME, would have a much more secure Pakistan and Afghanistan, and we wouldn't have an emboldened and largely unchecked Iran on our hands. And we wouldn't have 3,000+ probably wasted lives and several hundred billion dollars spent on what looks to be a marginal gain at best, and at worst a political debacle for American power and influence.
I'll make a neo-conservative critique of Iraq that is honest. The basic neo-conservative premise for going into Iraq was to effect democratic political and social change in the Arab world and in the Middle East, where the ruling kleptocracies and totalitarian states have crushed all hope in the general population and created a rancid environment in which hate and extremism is rampant. This basic premise - that the root of the problem in the Middle East lies with its dysfunctional ruling classes - is correct as far as it goes. It of course, needs to be more honest and further note that much of the present structure of the Middle East is rooted in its historical culture and social development going back literally thousands of years, and is one in which Islam and its lack of a chuch/state divide is a major contributing factor. Nevertheless, the intervention into Iraq was made with the prospects of bringing, by force and by softer means, a change in this governing ethos in the Middle East.
I still believe in this basic concept, however, I am much chastened by the overweening and unrealistic optimism I and others like me felt at the onset of the Iraq experiment. In particular we were wrong about the place and time for effecting such change. In our hubris, we glossed over in many ways the longterm consequences coming from Saddam Hussein's deposition.
However, the biggest single mistake neoconservatives made was that we placed our faith in the abilities of what has turned out to be a singularly incompetent administration. In the mission's basic planning, forecasting, and execution, this administration has almost uniformly made the wrong choices for Iraq's stabilization and progress. What the leftist and media critics get wrong about Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush is that they screwed up by going in halfhearted and without demanding real sacrifice upfront from the American people. Rumsfeld sacked the Chairman of the JCS for speaking honestly and saying correctly that it would take hundreds of thousands of troops over several years to truly "win" Iraq. That should have been a red flag to us all. But conservatives and a lot of moderates rallied around Bush and Co. because of the unfair attacks from the left and the media, whose objectivity was never in evidence, and in doing so we ratified and enabled every bad decision Bush and Co. made in Iraq.
By the time we realized where we were, it was probably too late to save the experiment in anything but a very watered down version of what it was intended to be: a de facto partitioned Iraq held together by a surged American offensive until the Shiite majority can join the Kurds in securing their territory, and (hopefully) with a growing number of Sunnis deciding to make their way in a Shiite-dominated status quo while the Americans still wield influence over events.
I still have some optimism, very long term, for the Iraq experiment. But it is obvious now that it was a mission chosen by this Administration at the wrong time, in the wrong place and most certainly with the wrong means of bringing about its ultimate accomplishment. In hindsight, we should have gotten Bin Laden first, wiped out the Taliban, forced Pakistan to secure its "wild west territories" either on its own or with the intervention of US troops, and gradually stepped up pressure on Saddam to become a good international citizen. In doing so, we would still be in a position to effect changes in political attitudes in the ME, would have a much more secure Pakistan and Afghanistan, and we wouldn't have an emboldened and largely unchecked Iran on our hands. And we wouldn't have 3,000+ probably wasted lives and several hundred billion dollars spent on what looks to be a marginal gain at best, and at worst a political debacle for American power and influence.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
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The fact that this tool uses the word experiment, when people are dying is pretty fucked up. I guess it took the 911 experiment to lead to this one. What an idiot!You've changed your place in this world!0
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basically true
However, the reason this went so wrong - is mostly because the administration was not up front about their reason for invasion.
They did not allow the country to consider the goal and offer counsel
Nor did they allow the international community to offer counsel.
The hid their agenda behind a lie - and rallied support resulting from the hate generated by Osama Bin Laden
This administration is childish - afraid to get advise or reveal their plans for fear of hearing there may be a better idea.0 -
this war has gone as planned by those who orchestrated it ... the neo-connish principles hold true however this was war-profiteering masquerading as some principled venture ... to suggest utter incompetency without looking at the ties these people have to weapons and oil as well as the relevant truths that have surfaced is not looking at the big picture ...0
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even flow? wrote:The fact that this tool uses the word experiment, when people are dying is pretty fucked up. I guess it took the 911 experiment to lead to this one. What an idiot!
100 % what I thought when I just read this.
That tells you somethign about the mentality of people like this, they do not give a shit about the life of others, just their own.
This guy is a piece of crap in my opinion.0 -
I agree that the continued use of "experiment" indicates a cavalier attitude toward the lives that are in the balance.
Where did you find this?I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.0 -
That's exactly what I thought ... I immediately got an image of a mad scientist in his laboratory, surrounded by the tragic results of his twisted experiments. Who the hell "experiments" with the lives of millions?even flow? wrote:The fact that this tool uses the word experiment, when people are dying is pretty fucked up. I guess it took the 911 experiment to lead to this one. What an idiot!
The author might also do well to question his own hatred of the left, since everything the left warned was going to happen HAS happened. Maybe we're not as dumb as he thought? Maybe we weren't saying those things because we hate America, but because we thought they were true ... and as it turns out, unfortunately, we were right."Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 19630 -
The democrats are screwed.. America is screwed
Against ignorance, even the Gods contend in vein0 -
I'll jump on the "experiment" bandwagon here. It is a bit callous of the author to simply label our mission in Iraq as an experiment. Who are we, or better yet who is our government, to think that we hold the right to "experiment" with the lives of others. What ever the intentions where for invading Iraq, be it our security or bringing democracy to a country, we do not have the right to invade a soverign nation as some sort of socio-political experiment. While I agree with the author that the Bush administration has screwed this up from day 1, I am completely repulsed my his approval of undertaking this action any way."When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul0
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I stopped reading after "Iraq experiment".
What a fucktard! :mad:0 -
Why is it America's responsibility to decide and implement what is best for Arabic people living in the Middle East? Who died and made us God?Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
Jesus people... what is with the negativity towards the word "expirement"? That is EXACTLY what this has been, how could anybody deny that. Why is it that this "expirement" carries negative conotations?
Nobody gets upset when doctors "expirement" on patients to cure cancer or heart disease. It's not like we were expirementing on the population like the Nazis or something. We were trying to expirement with a new, better form of government that would lead to prosperity and give the populace hope.
Sure, the citizens didn't give their consent - but that is immpossible to obtain. I wonder if a vote could have been taken, how many Iraiqi's would want the US to come take out Saddam.
I wonder why I still post on this board...0 -
...NCfan wrote:Jesus people... what is with the negativity towards the word "expirement"? That is EXACTLY what this has been, how could anybody deny that. Why is it that this "expirement" carries negative conotations?
Nobody gets upset when doctors "expirement" on patients to cure cancer or heart disease. It's not like we were expirementing on the population like the Nazis or something. We were trying to expirement with a new, better form of government that would lead to prosperity and give the populace hope.
Sure, the citizens didn't give their consent - but that is immpossible to obtain. I wonder if a vote could have been taken, how many Iraiqi's would want the US to come take out Saddam.
I wonder why I still post on this board...
Maybe because it was an ill-concieved experiment in the first place... like an experiment to see what happens if you put a bowl of gasoline in your microwave and set the timer to an hour.
One of those assholes should have said, "Wait... do you really think this is a good idea?"
...
Also... doctors do not 'Experiment' on patients. They 'Operate' on them using proven techniques and procedures. They experiment on lab rats and mice to hammer out the details... not on the human on the operating table.Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
NCfan wrote:Jesus people... what is with the negativity towards the word "expirement"? That is EXACTLY what this has been, how could anybody deny that. Why is it that this "expirement" carries negative conotations?
Nobody gets upset when doctors "expirement" on patients to cure cancer or heart disease. It's not like we were expirementing on the population like the Nazis or something. We were trying to expirement with a new, better form of government that would lead to prosperity and give the populace hope.
Sure, the citizens didn't give their consent - but that is immpossible to obtain. I wonder if a vote could have been taken, how many Iraiqi's would want the US to come take out Saddam.
I wonder why I still post on this board...
kinda freudian in the way you spelt experiment EXPIREment cuz that's what the cost of this experiment was ... the expiration of hundreds of thousands of lives ...
equating a senseless war full of suffering and pain to trying to cure cancer pretty much shows why you don't understand the sentiments of those who oppose this war ...0 -
The US goverment has used Puerto Rico as experimental grounds for nuclear research, agent orange and sveral other wonderful things. To me iraq is just another experiment that the people in power and the heartless people that support them are conducting in the middle east. These people view arabs as nothing more than giunie(sp?)pigs just as they view most of latin america. we are nothing to them.0
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That's because people volunteer to be experimented on, and you can't even get into a trial for an "experimental" treatment unless you've exhausted every approved treatment and the doctors have pretty much given you up for dead. That's because doctors don't like experimenting on people, and won't do it if there are other options!NCfan wrote:Nobody gets upset when doctors "expirement" on patients to cure cancer or heart disease."Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 19630 -
The problem that I have with this is it doesn't move us forward at all. Yeah no shit things should have been done differently, but how does that critique help us right now in Iraq. It doesn't. We need to be throwing out solutions to the current problem, not bringing up what happened pre-invasion or how we should have done things differently. That doesn't bring troops home, secure Iraq, protect civilians, or kill terrorists. So it's really meaningless in my opinion.0
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The Illinoisemakers wrote:The problem that I have with this is it doesn't move us forward at all. Yeah no shit things should have been done differently, but how does that critique help us right now in Iraq. It doesn't. We need to be throwing out solutions to the current problem, not bringing up what happened pre-invasion or how we should have done things differently. That doesn't bring troops home, secure Iraq, protect civilians, or kill terrorists. So it's really meaningless in my opinion.
While I agree that we need solutions, the past is importnat because, to be cliche, those that do not learn history are condemned to repeat it."
Also, I love how the hawks, who are responsible for this fiasco, now get to say "yeah, but forget the past, let's move forward." Maybe the best way to move forward to to eliminate the elements that got us to this point...I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.0 -
Uncle Leo wrote:While I agree that we need solutions, the past is importnat because, to be cliche, those that do not learn history are condemned to repeat it."
Also, I love how the hawks, who are responsible for this fiasco, now get to say "yeah, but forget the past, let's move forward." Maybe the best way to move forward to to eliminate the elements that got us to this point...
I agree it is important we learn from our mistakes in Iraq and apply them to potential future conflicts, Iran, North Korea.
For the purposes of Iraq I don't think wasting time on what should have been done, helps us with what needs to be done.0 -
The Illinoisemakers wrote:I agree it is important we learn from our mistakes in Iraq and apply them to potential future conflicts, Iran, North Korea.
For the purposes of Iraq I don't think wasting time on what should have been done, helps us with what needs to be done.
except for the fact that the morons that created it - don't recgognize the problems and choose to continue moving in the same direction.0 -
Abuskedti wrote:except for the fact that the morons that created it - don't recgognize the problems and choose to continue moving in the same direction.
Those "morons" will be out of office soon enough. You just hope the new leadership has learned from those mistakes.0
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