Bingo!

NCfan

soulsinging wrote:

this is the most ridiculous post i ever read. you admit and acknowledge that the american president lied to the world and made a mess of his war, then say it is still imperative that we hang in there to... what? do you truly think we can force iraqi muslims to start seeing things our way via military occupation? honestly? all we do is make ourselves a target by BECOMING the autocratic society you bemoan. do the ends thus justify any means? lying, abuse of power and discretion, torture, trampling of civil rights... whatever it takes to... what? im not even sure what goal you're advocating here. prove a point? show islam its terrorism will be met with misdirected and poorly managed aggression and policy?

those european countries, last i checked, still have their cultural and political beliefs intact. iran and al-queda have not influenced them. so how are they not being defended? becos they haven't invaded iran to force them to adhere to the same beliefs?

you are the biggest unsubstantiated shit talker i've ever seen here. it terrifies me that you are actually in a graduate education program. have our standards slipped that low? my only hope is that purple hawk is who i am thinking of.

anyway, i dont know why im bothering trying to talk sense with you. you may go back to masturbating over the latest issue of soldier of fortune magazine now.

First of all, I'm not in a graduate educational program... don't know why you think that.

We may disagree about this, but I don't think we are trying to make people in the Middle East see things our way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand the situation.

- We overthrew Saddam
- held elections
- formed a democratically elected governement based on election results.
- a president was democracitally elected

All we are doing now is making sure that this government "of the people" is not overthrown and replaced by anarchy. Are the majority of Iraqi's trying to overthrow the governement they just elected? The answer is NO! It's just the radical militias who have a settle to score against past political opponents or grudges against rival religous factions.

There is not an all out civil war raging in Iraq. There are thousands of people in arms fighting each other out of 25 million. They pick off a couple GIs every other day or blow up a market full of innocents - and we freak out like the world is gonna end or something. Yes, the situation is bad. But no, we are not trying to subjigate their people okay? We're not over there shooting up people, we're trying to keep the fucking peace okay? Yes, we've not been very good at it, but that is becuase we have incredibly terrible leadership. We let them have free fucking elections and something like 75% of them people went out and voted.

I doubt many people here share your opinion of me.

soulsinging

NCfan wrote:

First of all, I'm not in a graduate educational program... don't know why you think that.

We may disagree about this, but I don't think we are trying to make people in the Middle East see things our way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand the situation.

- We overthrew Saddam
- held elections
- formed a democratically elected governement based on election results.
- a president was democracitally elected

All we are doing now is making sure that this government "of the people" is not overthrown and replaced by anarchy. Are the majority of Iraqi's trying to overthrow the governement they just elected? The answer is NO! It's just the radical militias who have a settle to score against past political opponents or grudges against rival religous factions.

There is not an all out civil war raging in Iraq. There are thousands of people in arms fighting each other out of 25 million. They pick off a couple GIs every other day or blow up a market full of innocents - and we freak out like the world is gonna end or something. Yes, the situation is bad. But no, we are not trying to subjigate their people okay? We're not over there shooting up people, we're trying to keep the fucking peace okay? Yes, we've not been very good at it, but that is becuase we have incredibly terrible leadership. We let them have free fucking elections and something like 75% of them people went out and voted.

I doubt many people here share your opinion of me.

i was thinking of purple hawk then. that's a relief. the situation over there is bad and is not going to improve as long as we sit there. it's been... 4 years since "mission accomplished"? why can the iraqis not defend themselves yet? what the hell happened to the military and police we've been training? ill tell you what happened, they know their country is not going to stabilize. it's an arbitrary hodge podge of people who hate each other who were thrown together by europeans after ww2. so their police and military dont WANT to take over, cos they know once they do, they will be the ones dying. as long as they play incompetent, we HAVE to stay there so dubya can save face. we need to get the fuck out and let them have their anarchy. let the islamic world solve its own fucking problems. i see no reason it is our business if they want to kill each other over different koran interpretations. let the country splinter and let them decide their own boundaries. regardless of what we are TRYING to do or what you think we are doing, to the iraqi citizens, they see us as occupiers setting up a puppet government. joe iraqi might be ok with that becos it beats saddam, but dont fool yourself into thinking we're the good guys here.

anyway, news is the iranians are releasing the hostages... so explain to me the relevance of this article again? it's a damn good thing the brits didnt do what you were pushing for and start ww3 over this. who knew they could be reasoned with? iran doesn't want world domination, they want respect instead of condescension.

OutOfBreath

NCfan wrote:

I doubt the author is upset at Europeans for not being "American" or that you are less willing to "agress" than we are. Instead, he simply states the fact that your foreign policy centers more on appeasement to threats and pacifism as opposed to a basic defense of your cultural and political beliefs - the bedrock of your society.

In short, the shared enemies of America and Europe, basically non-tolerant Muslims, know they can push you around with the ocasional attack with relative impunity. And they have turned the corner of American popular opinion on their way to doing the same to us.

Precisely. So why is it wrong for me to conclude that the author would wish we were agressive like americans? And I really see no aspect of the hostage thing that has any relevance to our cultural and political beliefs, assuming they are onesided and plain. This is posturing, period. And you know my stance on the civilizational conflict mumbo jumbo.

We can all blame this on the Republican party or Bush and Co., but the situation is what it is, and it's not going to change until we get involved and help other countries find there way out of autocratic societies. Sure, Bush lied to the American public, the world and then proceeded to make a mess or Iraq. But the majority in Europe and many in America can't differentiate between being mad at Bush and the obvious mistake of pulling out of Iraq just to spite him and everyone else that supported the war.

I didn't mention Bush or even Iraq anywhere.

Peace
Dan

Cosmo

Specifics wrote:

And also for an American to post on here that Europe should have done more about Hitler during the "phoney war" situation, well thats just ridiculous. Take a closer look at your own countries reaction to WW2. I think you'll find that it made a lot make that a hell of a lot of money out of sitting on its hands watching its friends fight a horrible bloody war, only to join in when the Nazi machine was all but broken and finished. Awesome way to "Man up" to that situation.

...
Just a minor correction... that actually solidifies your point...
Germany Declared War on the U.S. on December 11, 1941 in order to sink U.S. flagged merchant ships in the Atlantic as acts of War, otherwise those acts would otherwise have been considered acts of piracy on the high seas and German Fleet Commanders held accountable for War Crimes. We didn't 'Join the Fight'... we were called in by Hitler.
Still, you have to give us some credit for helping to bring an end to the War... along with the numerous military blunders committed by Hitler. We lost an awful lot of soldiers... maybe not as many as European countries... still, their deaths count for something, right?

Specifics

Cosmo wrote:

...
Just a minor correction... that actually solidifies your point...
Germany Declared War on the U.S. on December 11, 1941 in order to sink U.S. flagged merchant ships in the Atlantic as acts of War, otherwise those acts would otherwise have been considered acts of piracy on the high seas and German Fleet Commanders held accountable for War Crimes. We didn't 'Join the Fight'... we were called in by Hitler.
Still, you have to give us some credit for helping to bring an end to the War... along with the numerous military blunders committed by Hitler. We lost an awful lot of soldiers... maybe not as many as European countries... still, their deaths count for something, right?

Yeah they count for a lot my friend, especially the ones that fought before America (s government) decided to actually get involved. Dont get me wrong Cosmo I know i dont show it too often on here but i dont hate americans in general, or America. I've met a few in Europe and a lot in America:) that i like a lot, i read a lot of good stuff on here. But i also read a hell of a lot of idiotic chest pumping bullshit, and jsut plain stupidity, and most of the time i'm just tryin to hold a mirror up to that. Also i've never let myself be drawn into politics in a massive way because its boring and has very little bearing on my life, but right now i am scared of America, mostly because even tho there are a lot of cool as fuck Americans they seem to have no bearing whatsoever on Americs foreign policy. Thats scary!

America sped up greatly the conclusion af a largely already won war, but probably saved another 5-10 years (obviously guesswork) of horror and hardship in Europe.

But maybe you could shed some unbiased light for me on how come America went into the war in the middle of a massive recession and came out the richest country on the planet while Britain had rationing for many years after?

END

ps. are you still awake after that?

Cosmo

Specifics wrote:

Yeah they count for a lot my friend, especially the ones that fought before America (s government) decided to actually get involved. Dont get me wrong Cosmo I know i dont show it too often on here but i dont hate americans in general, or America. I've met a few in Europe and a lot in America:) that i like a lot, i read a lot of good stuff on here. But i also read a hell of a lot of idiotic chest pumping bullshit, and jsut plain stupidity, and most of the time i'm just tryin to hold a mirror up to that. Also i've never let myself be drawn into politics in a massive way because its boring and has very little bearing on my life, but right now i am scared of America, mostly because even tho there are a lot of cool as fuck Americans they seem to have no bearing whatsoever on Americs foreign policy. Thats scary!

America sped up greatly the conclusion af a largely already won war, but probably saved another 5-10 years (obviously guesswork) of horror and hardship in Europe.

But maybe you could shed some unbiased light for me on how come America went into the war in the middle of a massive recession and came out the richest country on the planet while Britain had rationing for many years after?

END

ps. are you still awake after that?

...
I'll answer that last question, first...
"...how come America went into the war in the middle of a massive recession and came out the richest country on the planet while Britain had rationing for many years after?"
Because we are WAAAAAAAAY over here. None of our manufacturing facilities or airfields (other than Hickam and Clark) were bombed. We didn't have to rebuild anything because we weren't bombed.
NOTE: For those of you who want to correct me and claim Pearl Harbor... Hawaii was not a state in 1941... look at the newsreel footage and count the stars on the flag. The Douglas facility in Santa Monica, CA. didn't get hit by the Luftwaffe like the DeHaviland, Hawker and Supermarine plants. We were able to pump out B-17s and B-24s round the clock.
Also, no U.S. city was blitzkrieged like London. Our manufacturing was firing off, full bore. And yes, we made a lot of money... enough to end our economic depression.
And yeah.. I admit it... I have seen the 'Ugly American', both here and abroad. It shames me to admit that we are both Americans. Some Americans believe just because we are a Super Power, that we can solve anything militarily. Not the case. We should use that 'inginueity' we are always bragging about to avoid conflicts. I think we have to get over the thought that if only the rest of the world was like us... they'd be as happy as we are. We can't seem to recognize that maybe some people don't want to be like us.

Specifics

Cosmo wrote:

I think we have to get over the thought that if only the rest of the world was like us... they'd be as happy as we are. We can't seem to recognize that maybe some people don't want to be like us.

Or that maybe America is no happier (or has more freedom) than a lot of the rest of the World.

Cool answer to my question, tho not quite as unbiased as it could have been, you failed to mention that what Americas factories were largely pumping out was weaponry/ammunition for top dollar to "allies" in trouble.

But fuck it, couple of points aside we're pretty much cool i think.

Unless you think American football is better than proper football, cos then we may have problems.

Cosmo

Specifics wrote:

Or that maybe America is no happier (or has more freedom) than a lot of the rest of the World.

Cool answer to my question, tho not quite as unbiased as it could have been, you failed to mention that what Americas factories were largely pumping out was weaponry/ammunition for top dollar to "allies" in trouble.

But fuck it, couple of points aside we're pretty much cool i think.

Unless you think American football is better than proper football, cos then we may have problems.

...
I guess we have a problem, then.
When I was in London, back in the 80s... I wanted to go to a football game at Wembley. My English friends advised me not to because apparently, it was some big rivalry game and all i might get is a standing room ticket in the end zones. They said, it gets pretty rough in there.
I did like the RAF Muesum in Hendon... when I was there, I was lucky enough to see them fly the Me-109Bf... never seen one over here, let alone an actual one in flight. I'd love to see that Lancaster fly... I bet it's pretty impressive.

OutOfBreath

And whaddaya know, the hostage thing ended peacefully. Imagine that. Good thing we didn't bomb Teheran then...

Peace
Dan

soulsinging

OutOfBreath wrote:

And whaddaya know, the hostage thing ended peacefully. Imagine that. Good thing we didn't bomb Teheran then...

Peace
Dan

come on, you KNOW you wanted some bombing! it's so much more fun to watch on tv than some boring newscaster talking about a peaceful resolution. where's the drama in that? this is really bad news for the "journalism" industry

Specifics

Cosmo wrote:

...
I guess we have a problem, then.
When I was in London, back in the 80s... I wanted to go to a football game at Wembley. My English friends advised me not to because apparently, it was some big rivalry game and all i might get is a standing room ticket in the end zones. They said, it gets pretty rough in there.
I did like the RAF Muesum in Hendon... when I was there, I was lucky enough to see them fly the Me-109Bf... never seen one over here, let alone an actual one in flight. I'd love to see that Lancaster fly... I bet it's pretty impressive.

Footie matches were not really a place for the casual fan back then definitely not, you probably did well not being there. Dont know much about planes but if you're that interested i can find out what i can this end anytime you like. As for London, this place is a mysterious old hag if you take the time to get underneath the Big Business exterior. You should check it out more if you get the chance, its magical, seriously.

Peas