Blissfully Uneducated

NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
edited July 2007 in A Moving Train
Blissfully Uneducated
By Victor Davis Hanson

Colleges lost their way in the 1960s, contends VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, a classics professor. Students now get a ‘therapeutic curriculum’ instead of learning hard facts and inductive inquiry. The result: we can’t answer the questions of our time.



Is “ho”—the rapper slang for the slur “whore”—a bad word? Always, sometimes, or just when an obnoxious white male like Don Imus says it? But not when the equally obnoxious Snoop Dogg serially employs it?

Is the Iraq war, as we are often told, the “greatest mistake” in our nation’s history?

Because Israel and the United States have a bomb, is it then O.K. for theocratic Iran to have one too?

Americans increasingly cannot seem to answer questions like these adequately because they are blissfully uneducated. They have not acquired a broad knowledge of language, literature, philosophy, and history.

Sometime in the 1960s—perhaps due to frustration over the Vietnam War, perhaps as a manifestation of the cultural transformations of the age—the university jettisoned the classical approach [to education] and adopted the therapeutic.Instead, our youth for a generation have been fed a “Studies” curriculum. Fill in the blanks: Women’s Studies, Gay Studies, Environmental Studies, Peace Studies, Chicano Studies, Film Studies, and so on. These courses aim to indoctrinate students about perceived pathologies in contemporary American culture—specifically, race, class, gender, and environmental oppression.

Such courses are by design deductive. The student is expected to arrive at the instructor’s own preconceived conclusions. The courses are also captives of the present—hostages of the contemporary media and popular culture from which they draw their information and earn their relevance.

The theme of all such therapeutic curricula is relativism. There are no eternal truths, only passing assertions that gain credence through power and authority. Once students understand how gender, race, and class distinctions are used to oppress others, they are then free to ignore absolute “truth,” since it is only a reflection of one’s own privilege.

By contrast, the aim of traditional education was to prepare a student in two very different ways. First, classes offered information drawn from the ages—the significance of Gettysburg, the characters in a Shakespeare play, or the nature of the subjunctive mood. Integral to this acquisition were key dates, facts, names, and terms by which students, in a focused manner in conversation and speech, could refer to the broad knowledge that they had gathered.

Second, traditional education taught a method of inductive inquiry. Vocabulary, grammar, syntax, logic, and rhetoric were tools to be used by a student, drawing on an accumulated storehouse of information, to present well-reasoned opinions—the ideology of which was largely irrelevant to professors and the university.

Sometime in the 1960s—perhaps due to frustration over the Vietnam War, perhaps as a manifestation of the cultural transformations of the age—the university jettisoned the classical approach and adopted the therapeutic.

For each course on rap music or black feminism, one on King Lear or Latin is lost.Many educators and students believed that America was hopelessly corrupt and incorrigible. The church, government, military, schools, and family stifled the individual and perpetuated a capitalist, male hierarchy that had warped Western society. So if, for a mere four years, the university could educate students to counter these much larger sinister forces, the nation itself could be changed for the better. Colleges could serve as a counterweight to the insidious prejudices embedded in the core of America.

Unfortunately, education is a zero-sum game in which a student has only 120 units of classroom instruction. Not all classes are equal in the quality of knowledge they impart. For each course on rap music or black feminism, one on King Lear or Latin is lost.

Presentism and relativism are always two-edged swords: today’s Asian victims of racism are tomorrow’s Silicon Valley engineers of privilege. Last year’s “brilliant” movie of meaning now goes unrented at Blockbuster. Hypocrisy runs rampant: many of those assuring students that America is hopelessly oppressive do so on an atoll of guaranteed lifelong employment, summers off, high salaries, and few audits of their own job performance.

Once we understand this tragedy, we can provide prescribed answers to the three questions with which I started. “Ho,” like any element of vocabulary in capitalist society, is a relative term, not an absolute slur against women. “Ho” is racist and sexist when spoken by white men of influence and power, jocular or even meaningful when uttered by victims from the African-American male underclass.

If few Americans know of prior abject disasters during the winter of 1776, the summer of 1864, or January 1942, then why wouldn’t Iraq really be the worst mistake in our history?

If there are no intrinsic differences—only relative degrees of “power” that construct our “reality”—between a Western democracy that is subject to continual audit by a watchdog press, an active political opposition, and a freely voting citizenry, and an Iranian theocracy that bans free speech to rule by religious edict, then it will matter little which entity has nuclear weapons.

In the end, education is the ability to make sense of the chaotic present through the prism of the absolute and eternal truths of the ages. But if there are no prisms—no absolutes, no eternals, no truths, no ages past—then the present will appear only as nonsense.



Victor Davis Hanson is professor emeritus at California State University, Fresno, where he initiated the classics program.
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Comments

  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    excellent article.

    VDH just owned the entire system of higher learning in one article.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • ArmsinaVArmsinaV Posts: 108
    NCfan wrote:
    Blissfully Uneducated
    By Victor Davis Hanson

    Colleges lost their way in the 1960s, contends VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, a classics professor. Students now get a ‘therapeutic curriculum’ instead of learning hard facts and inductive inquiry. The result: we can’t answer the questions of our time.



    Is “ho”—the rapper slang for the slur “whore”—a bad word? Always, sometimes, or just when an obnoxious white male like Don Imus says it? But not when the equally obnoxious Snoop Dogg serially employs it?

    Is the Iraq war, as we are often told, the “greatest mistake” in our nation’s history?

    Because Israel and the United States have a bomb, is it then O.K. for theocratic Iran to have one too?

    Americans increasingly cannot seem to answer questions like these adequately because they are blissfully uneducated. They have not acquired a broad knowledge of language, literature, philosophy, and history.

    Sometime in the 1960s—perhaps due to frustration over the Vietnam War, perhaps as a manifestation of the cultural transformations of the age—the university jettisoned the classical approach [to education] and adopted the therapeutic.Instead, our youth for a generation have been fed a “Studies” curriculum. Fill in the blanks: Women’s Studies, Gay Studies, Environmental Studies, Peace Studies, Chicano Studies, Film Studies, and so on. These courses aim to indoctrinate students about perceived pathologies in contemporary American culture—specifically, race, class, gender, and environmental oppression.

    Such courses are by design deductive. The student is expected to arrive at the instructor’s own preconceived conclusions. The courses are also captives of the present—hostages of the contemporary media and popular culture from which they draw their information and earn their relevance.

    The theme of all such therapeutic curricula is relativism. There are no eternal truths, only passing assertions that gain credence through power and authority. Once students understand how gender, race, and class distinctions are used to oppress others, they are then free to ignore absolute “truth,” since it is only a reflection of one’s own privilege.

    By contrast, the aim of traditional education was to prepare a student in two very different ways. First, classes offered information drawn from the ages—the significance of Gettysburg, the characters in a Shakespeare play, or the nature of the subjunctive mood. Integral to this acquisition were key dates, facts, names, and terms by which students, in a focused manner in conversation and speech, could refer to the broad knowledge that they had gathered.

    Second, traditional education taught a method of inductive inquiry. Vocabulary, grammar, syntax, logic, and rhetoric were tools to be used by a student, drawing on an accumulated storehouse of information, to present well-reasoned opinions—the ideology of which was largely irrelevant to professors and the university.

    Sometime in the 1960s—perhaps due to frustration over the Vietnam War, perhaps as a manifestation of the cultural transformations of the age—the university jettisoned the classical approach and adopted the therapeutic.

    For each course on rap music or black feminism, one on King Lear or Latin is lost.Many educators and students believed that America was hopelessly corrupt and incorrigible. The church, government, military, schools, and family stifled the individual and perpetuated a capitalist, male hierarchy that had warped Western society. So if, for a mere four years, the university could educate students to counter these much larger sinister forces, the nation itself could be changed for the better. Colleges could serve as a counterweight to the insidious prejudices embedded in the core of America.

    Unfortunately, education is a zero-sum game in which a student has only 120 units of classroom instruction. Not all classes are equal in the quality of knowledge they impart. For each course on rap music or black feminism, one on King Lear or Latin is lost.

    Presentism and relativism are always two-edged swords: today’s Asian victims of racism are tomorrow’s Silicon Valley engineers of privilege. Last year’s “brilliant” movie of meaning now goes unrented at Blockbuster. Hypocrisy runs rampant: many of those assuring students that America is hopelessly oppressive do so on an atoll of guaranteed lifelong employment, summers off, high salaries, and few audits of their own job performance.

    Once we understand this tragedy, we can provide prescribed answers to the three questions with which I started. “Ho,” like any element of vocabulary in capitalist society, is a relative term, not an absolute slur against women. “Ho” is racist and sexist when spoken by white men of influence and power, jocular or even meaningful when uttered by victims from the African-American male underclass.

    If few Americans know of prior abject disasters during the winter of 1776, the summer of 1864, or January 1942, then why wouldn’t Iraq really be the worst mistake in our history?

    If there are no intrinsic differences—only relative degrees of “power” that construct our “reality”—between a Western democracy that is subject to continual audit by a watchdog press, an active political opposition, and a freely voting citizenry, and an Iranian theocracy that bans free speech to rule by religious edict, then it will matter little which entity has nuclear weapons.

    In the end, education is the ability to make sense of the chaotic present through the prism of the absolute and eternal truths of the ages. But if there are no prisms—no absolutes, no eternals, no truths, no ages past—then the present will appear only as nonsense.



    Victor Davis Hanson is professor emeritus at California State University, Fresno, where he initiated the classics program.

    Very interesting and very true. The modern university atmosphere - particularly in social sciences - is relativist, leftist, and in many areas unacademic. Totally unbalanced and, in my experience, sometimes just a medium to spread political ideologies from a bully pulpit.

    You should read "Closing of the American Mind" by Allan Bloom.
    2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    I bet those who are most in need of this article choose not to read this post or speak against VDH's ideas. They couldn't if they tried.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • KannKann Posts: 1,146
    NCfan wrote:
    Blissfully Uneducated
    By Victor Davis Hanson
    If few Americans know of prior abject disasters during the winter of 1776, the summer of 1864, or January 1942, then why wouldn’t Iraq really be the worst mistake in our history?

    I have a problem with this. It's great to aknowledge the horrors of history and what the wars have done through time. But societies evolve and today's society does not find acceptable to see so many people die for very unclear reason. The people of 2003 are not more stupid or less educated than those of 1940, they just ask more morally and technically to their government. It's how we evolve and it's how the basic human went from cavemen to marketing manager.
    So insisting in pursuing a war that is condemned by a majority of american citizens while killing off thousands of people (including civilians) may be seen as a major mistake.
    I find his points a little obnoxious themselves but I don't really know the us education system so I might be wrong.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    I must say, I ..... Am ..... Terrified. I mean, holy shit. Who knew there was such a meanacing threat here on our own shores. Islamofascists to the right of me, manipulating my news with their glorification of bin Laden, Stalinist sympathizers to the left, turning us all into namby-pamby hemesetuals with their Gay-centric classes and staged anal sex demonstrations. I mean, here I was, living my life as a college educated member of the middle class, completely unaware of all the things I need to fear.

    Well, when I have kids, I'll make damn sure I send them to Regent University, where they're sure to get a more balanced presentation of the threatening, dangerous, and near End Times world we're living in - to be followed by a prominent position in the next Republican administration where they will defend peace with war, knowledge with selective information, and freedom for all through Christian indoctrination. Thank you.


    "conservatives been pissin' me off lately" rant over.
  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    "studies" are not the problem. Overscheduled (and heavy-partying) college kids, and a culture that accepts that college time is appropriately spent with only a tiny fraction of the time actually devoted to reading, those are the problem.
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Kann wrote:
    But societies evolve and today's society does not find acceptable to see so many people die for very unclear reason.

    Case in point: moral relativism. What was right then is no longer right by virtue of a change in moral outlooks.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    Case in point: moral relativism. What was right then is no longer right by virtue of a change in moral outlooks.
    This is true. What was right in the past isn't right by today's standards. "Case in point": slavery.
  • KannKann Posts: 1,146
    Case in point: moral relativism. What was right then is no longer right by virtue of a change in moral outlooks.

    And? It's always been the same, I'm guessing VDH's teacher had the same rant about him and his other students. Saying the next generation are just a bunch of lousy ignorant stupid kids is just the way of assuming yourself as an old fart. It won't change the fact that morals change as our knowledge (as a whole) changes. It's always been the same, and killing 100 000 people for a goal which is not clear to everyone may shock today though it may have passed as normal 200 years ago. Welcome to modern times.
  • RushlimboRushlimbo Posts: 832
    Just another item for the righties to point and and say, "Jeez, it sure was better in the time of Beaver Cleaver". Change is always scary to the narrow minded.
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • Kann wrote:
    I have a problem with this. It's great to aknowledge the horrors of history and what the wars have done through time. But societies evolve and today's society does not find acceptable to see so many people die for very unclear reason. The people of 2003 are not more stupid or less educated than those of 1940, they just ask more morally and technically to their government. It's how we evolve and it's how the basic human went from cavemen to marketing manager.
    I find his points a little obnoxious themselves but I don't really know the us education system so I might be wrong.

    That's the truth. Things change over time. Different doesn't have to mean worse...it all depends on your bias. As for as the human race is concerned, this change has been a long time coming and sorely needed, imo. So much in our history that used to be considered 'the acceptable way' that we actively rationalized is now considered unthinkable or wrong. That's good and healthy, it's evolution...people adapt and learn to live with each other.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    RainDog wrote:
    This is true. What was right in the past isn't right by today's standards. "Case in point": slavery.

    False. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. The fact that fewer people were opposed to it then makes no difference.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Kann wrote:
    And? It's always been the same, I'm guessing VDH's teacher had the same rant about him and his other students. Saying the next generation are just a bunch of lousy ignorant stupid kids is just the way of assuming yourself as an old fart. It won't change the fact that morals change as our knowledge (as a whole) changes. It's always been the same, and killing 100 000 people for a goal which is not clear to everyone may shock today though it may have passed as normal 200 years ago. Welcome to modern times.

    You're failing to prove why there still aren't the eternal truths that VDH speaks about. VDH is talking about the system of education - not the students. He's blaming himself and our parents.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    excellent article.

    VDH just owned the entire system of higher learning in one article.

    so i guess you went to college in the 1950's :rolleyes:
  • False. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. The fact that fewer people were opposed to it then makes no difference.


    Killing has been wrong all this time, too. It has nothing to do with when it was wrong but instead when people made excuses for it and tried to make it 'right' or 'acceptable'.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    False. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. The fact that fewer people were opposed to it then makes no difference.
    Well, then, couldn't you say it isn't so much that we're changing what's right and wrong, but that what you see as moral relativism is really more "what was wrong then is wrong now" coming to light? That people like yourself who, at the moment, don't see it that way makes no difference.
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Killing has been wrong all this time, too. It has nothing to do with when it was wrong but instead when people made excuses for it and tried to make it 'right' or 'acceptable'.

    Um, yes...I agree.

    You're agreeing with me then?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    What's a Chicano and how can I study one....?

    This is an interesting read...Honestly, I'm not sure what ol' vic is suggesting here...is he saying attending college is a waste of time...? what's the alternative...or is he just talking shit...?

    and this..?:
    vic wrote:
    “Ho,” like any element of vocabulary in capitalist society, is a relative term, not an absolute slur against women. “Ho” is racist and sexist when spoken by white men of influence and power, jocular or even meaningful when uttered by victims from the African-American male underclass.

    now everything is so much clearer...
  • ArmsinaVArmsinaV Posts: 108
    Rushlimbo wrote:
    Just another item for the righties to point and and say, "Jeez, it sure was better in the time of Beaver Cleaver". Change is always scary to the narrow minded.

    Change? What kind of change are you in favor of that the article references? Academically speaking, I'm curious as a teacher. Specifically, what about classical education are you against or, what new programs do you feel have merit especially?

    "The church, government, military, schools, and family stifled the individual and perpetuated a capitalist, male hierarchy that had warped Western society. So if, for a mere four years, the university could educate students to counter these much larger sinister forces, the nation itself could be changed for the better. Colleges could serve as a counterweight to the insidious prejudices embedded in the core of America." - quote from the original article

    This is absolutely the role of the university according to many professors. Education classes at the university-level - particularly grad courses - are full of former Vietnam protesting radicals who still think it's up to them to fix the system. How many times have I heard a professor bring up Social Security, Iraq, Christianity, homosexual rights, etc. in classes that had NOTHING to do with anyof those things?

    I had one Methodology course where the local education union rep spent a full class recruiting future teachers, and went into a huge diatribe about how tax incentives don't actually work in the private sector. He didn't know what he was talking about, but that sure didn't stop him.

    I also had a "Diversity in Education" professor who constantly rambled through class by asking advice for how to deal with her gay son, telling us how guilty she felt about attending private school, and showing movies depicting white settlers abusing Native Americans.

    In one particularly ridiculous session, she mentioned that a scene in "The Breakfast Club" was just like watching a rape. (I have no idea how the topic came up.) She was referencing a scene where Judd Nelson is talking to Molly Ringwald sexually. I made a comment that the word "rape" is strong and I didn't think it was a totally accurate comparison because rape is such a serious crime. She snapped back with, "Well have YOU been raped? Because I have and it IS rape."

    It was completely bizarre, but, actually, well in line with how she conducted class as a personal ranting session full of political and social topics that had nothing to do with education.
    2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    RainDog wrote:
    Well, then, couldn't you say it isn't so much that we're changing what's right and wrong, but that what you see as moral relativism is really more "what was wrong then is wrong now" coming to light? That people like yourself who, at the moment, don't see it that way makes no difference.

    You're complicating it. Moral relativism is easily proven to be a false belief.

    Our moral information is updated with science and reason so that we can determine that yes, owning slaves is wrong because blacks have human rights like whites. The eternal truth was always that slavery was wrong - human beings were not informed enough.

    Moral relativism would have you believe that if you live in an Islamic country, it's morally right for women to be beaten for speaking to another man besides their husband. It's right for them, but not right for us? False. It is wrong for both.

    Because moral relativism is a false doctrine, then there must be at least some moral truth. We are currently determining which moral truths there are through faith and reason.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    a bunch of folks commenting on how colleges were before the 60's is a tad funny to me, unless of couse you guys are over 60 years old :rolleyes:
  • Um, yes...I agree.

    You're agreeing with me then?

    That killing has always been wrong...yes, I agree with that. But I think we disagree about how we, as a people, come to these conclusions.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    You're complicating it. Moral relativism is easily proven to be a false belief.

    Our moral information is updated with science and reason so that we can determine that yes, owning slaves is wrong because blacks have human rights like whites. The eternal truth was always that slavery was wrong - human beings were not informed enough.

    Moral relativism would have you believe that if you live in an Islamic country, it's morally right for women to be beaten for speaking to another man besides their husband. It's right for them, but not right for us? False. It is wrong for both.

    Because moral relativism is a false doctrine, then there must be at least some moral truth. We are currently determining which moral truths there are through faith and reason.
    Ironic that you mention "faith" yet condemn a religious sect for following theirs. After all, the Bible was used to defend slavery in the past. I would posit that moral truths are determined through reason.

    But that still doesn't discount my statement. I said that what you view as moral relativism may in fact be universal truth in the transition between ignorance and discovery. And I never defended "moral relativism" iself, as that's just a buzz word for "I don't like modern society."
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    RainDog wrote:
    Ironic that you mention "faith" yet condemn a religious sect for following theirs. After all, the Bible was used to defend slavery in the past. I would posit that moral truths are determined through reason.

    But that still doesn't discount my statement. I said that what you view as moral relativism may in fact be universal truth in the transition between ignorance and discovery. And I never defended "moral relativism" iself, as that's just a buzz word for "I don't like modern society."

    Moral relativism is a subject discussed in philosophy departments in colleges. It's not a buzz word at all. Professors spend their lives studying it.

    The problem is: there's no legitimate "discovery" in moral relativism. The only thing you "discover" is what particular attitudes are at that time and place. There's no analytical process that goes into moral reasoning.

    Um, irrespective of their religious views, Islam's teachings on how to treat women are immoral. Though, faith does inform many moral teachings, such as the Ten commandments.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • ArmsinaV wrote:
    Change? What kind of change are you in favor of that the article references? Academically speaking, I'm curious as a teacher. Specifically, what about classical education are you against or, what new programs do you feel have merit especially?

    "The church, government, military, schools, and family stifled the individual and perpetuated a capitalist, male hierarchy that had warped Western society. So if, for a mere four years, the university could educate students to counter these much larger sinister forces, the nation itself could be changed for the better. Colleges could serve as a counterweight to the insidious prejudices embedded in the core of America." - quote from the original article

    This is absolutely the role of the university according to many professors. Education classes at the university-level - particularly grad courses - are full of former Vietnam protesting radicals who still think it's up to them to fix the system. How many times have I heard a professor bring up Social Security, Iraq, Christianity, homosexual rights, etc. in classes that had NOTHING to do with anyof those things?

    I had one Methodology course where the local education union rep spent a full class recruiting future teachers, and went into a huge diatribe about how tax incentives don't actually work in the private sector. He didn't know what he was talking about, but that sure didn't stop him.

    I also had a "Diversity in Education" professor who constantly rambled through class by asking advice for how to deal with her gay son, telling us how guilty she felt about attending private school, and showing movies depicting white settlers abusing Native Americans.

    In one particularly ridiculous session, she mentioned that a scene in "The Breakfast Club" was just like watching a rape. (I have no idea how the topic came up.) She was referencing a scene where Judd Nelson is talking to Molly Ringwald sexually. I made a comment that the word "rape" is strong and I didn't think it was a totally accurate comparison because rape is such a serious crime. She snapped back with, "Well have YOU been raped? Because I have and it IS rape."

    It was completely bizarre, but, actually, well in line with how she conducted class as a personal ranting session full of political and social topics that had nothing to do with education.

    It's still education. It just so happens you disagree. So much in life intertwines, in fact, everything intertwines...it's very easy for one discussion to lead into another discussion and still be very relevent.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RushlimboRushlimbo Posts: 832
    ArmsinaV wrote:
    Change? What kind of change are you in favor of that the article references? Academically speaking, I'm curious as a teacher. Specifically, what about classical education are you against or, what new programs do you feel have merit especially?

    "The church, government, military, schools, and family stifled the individual and perpetuated a capitalist, male hierarchy that had warped Western society. So if, for a mere four years, the university could educate students to counter these much larger sinister forces, the nation itself could be changed for the better. Colleges could serve as a counterweight to the insidious prejudices embedded in the core of America." - quote from the original article

    This is absolutely the role of the university according to many professors. Education classes at the university-level - particularly grad courses - are full of former Vietnam protesting radicals who still think it's up to them to fix the system. How many times have I heard a professor bring up Social Security, Iraq, Christianity, homosexual rights, etc. in classes that had NOTHING to do with anyof those things?

    I had one Methodology course where the local education union rep spent a full class recruiting future teachers, and went into a huge diatribe about how tax incentives don't actually work in the private sector. He didn't know what he was talking about, but that sure didn't stop him.

    I also had a "Diversity in Education" professor who constantly rambled through class by asking advice for how to deal with her gay son, telling us how guilty she felt about attending private school, and showing movies depicting white settlers abusing Native Americans.

    In one particularly ridiculous session, she mentioned that a scene in "The Breakfast Club" was just like watching a rape. (I have no idea how the topic came up.) She was referencing a scene where Judd Nelson is talking to Molly Ringwald sexually. I made a comment that the word "rape" is strong and I didn't think it was a totally accurate comparison because rape is such a serious crime. She snapped back with, "Well have YOU been raped? Because I have and it IS rape."

    It was completely bizarre, but, actually, well in line with how she conducted class as a personal ranting session full of political and social topics that had nothing to do with education.

    I guess you are trying to say that your experiences with those couple of professors is how it is at every educational institution? You must teach at a less than desirable college.
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • ArmsinaVArmsinaV Posts: 108
    It's still education. It just so happens you disagree. So much in life intertwines, in fact, everything intertwines...it's very easy for one discussion to lead into another discussion and still be very relevent.

    That's the point. "Everything" is not education. When you start calling it that, you cheapen it.

    I wonder what you would think if a professor of yours started a pro-Nazi speech and that jews really are evil. I wonder if you would sit back and say, "it's all education. everything is entwined." Or how about if someone started evangelizing in the name of Jesus or Islam.

    These discussions didn't "lead" to other topics. They WERE the topics that she presented. Our only assignment in the class was writing a "cultural history" of ourselves, and EVERYONE got an A if they finished it.
    2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
  • ArmsinaVArmsinaV Posts: 108
    Rushlimbo wrote:
    I guess you are trying to say that your experiences with those couple of professors is how it is at every educational institution? You must teach at a less than desirable college.

    I am saying that the overwhelming majority of professors are leftists. That is absolutely true. A 2005 Rothman-Lichter-Nevitte study showed that 72 percent of professors were self-described liberals. This isn't conclusive evidence per se, but any experience at a university - especially a large state school - would reiterate that point, as well.

    And it wasn't where I teach. I teach at a public school.
    2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    meme wrote:
    "studies" are not the problem. Overscheduled (and heavy-partying) college kids, and a culture that accepts that college time is appropriately spent with only a tiny fraction of the time actually devoted to reading, those are the problem.
    i tend to agree.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    Moral relativism is a subject discussed in philosophy departments in colleges. It's not a buzz word at all. Professors spend their lives studying it.

    The problem is: there's no legitimate "discovery" in moral relativism. The only thing you "discover" is what particular attitudes are at that time and place. There's no analytical process that goes into moral reasoning.

    Um, irrespective of their religious views, Islam's teachings on how to treat women are immoral. Though, faith does inform many moral teachings, such as the Ten commandments.
    "Moral Relativism" is a buzz word when used by conservatives attempting to stop social changes in our society. Moral Relativism as a philosophical study is something different.
    Wikipedia wrote:
    "In popular culture people often describe themselves as "morally relativist," meaning that they are accepting of other people's values and agree that there is no one "right" way of doing some things. However, this actually has little to do with the philosophical idea of relativism; relativism does not necessarily imply tolerance, just as moral objectivism does not imply intolerance. These people's moral outlook can be explained from both theoretical frameworks."

    However, you're dodging my point. I'm saying that what you - you specifically - are calling moral relativism is in actuality the discovery of a "universal truth". For example, in hindsight slavery is wrong. That's the absolute truth. At the time, however, it was considered morally relative by the conservatives to abolish it. After all, it is condoned by the Bible; as is the abuse of women.
    And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
    If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.
    Sounds like what you're accusing the Muslims of. Would you call these teachings immoral? If so, are you being morally relative? Or, is it that the universal truth is it's immoral to treat women this way even though changing society from a Biblical, faith-based model is often accused of being morally relative.
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