Nine who gang raped girl, 10, escape jail

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

Fuck, OK people's, maybe the issue here was that the perpetrtors were Aboriginal, and that is why they got off so lightly, not the victim.
This is clear evidence that there is a totally different set of laws for these people. Might I also point out that some of the screamers here were some of the objectors to Howard's "interference" in these communities.
Also, had that girl been "stolen" and placed with a protective family, instead of being left in teh loving protective care of her own community, this would not have happened.
This is all kinds of fucked up alright.

I think Kevin Rudd should "apologise" to the criminals who did this, for troubling them with a court appearance. That wil make things right. (Sarcasm, just making sure you all got that)

Is the penny starting to drop yet as to why the "stolen generation" events actually occurred ????

Hope that's not directed at me and if it is you should just say so luce. Because I stand by my opinion that the Howard government's intervention was not motivated by their willingness to do anything about the aboriginal situation and more to do with being "seen" to be doing something and probably a lot more about finding a way to aquire the land more than anything. Or at least have more power over it. Otherwise why did they need to consult with the mining companies?

And you'll never convince me that "the stolen generation" had to be stolen either.

Yeah, there are one set of laws for aboriginals and one for everyone else but that's where we need to be making change.

lucylespian

Jeanie wrote:

Hope that's not directed at me and if it is you should just say so luce. Because I stand by my opinion that the Howard government's intervention was not motivated by their willingness to do anything about the aboriginal situation and more to do with being "seen" to be doing something and probably a lot more about finding a way to aquire the land more than anything. Or at least have more power over it. Otherwise why did they need to consult with the mining companies?

And you'll never convince me that "the stolen generation" had to be stolen either.

Yeah, there are one set of laws for aboriginals and one for everyone else but that's where we need to be making change.

Nah, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
If you can't see that the stolen generation was not justified, then you maybe need to actually go and visit a community for a bit and see how the children live there.
Ironically, all the competent leaders they have, who have effected more change than anything, were mostly from the stolen generation.
I still fail to see how the Howard intervention was such a token effort. Why would they not be motivated to make a real difference ? Would not that cover tham in glory, when everyone else failed.
Truth is, zillions have been pissed down the drain on this problem, because the problem is a lack of engagement by the poeple in a solution.
While charity minded and "pastoral" minded bleeding hearts continue to encourage victim behaviour, nothing will happen.
I challenge you to go to a community for a month and then see how you feel.

In My Dreams

That little girl is scarred for life.

I firmly believe rapists should be sentanced to death.

In this case the judge right along with them for condoning the rape.

I don't care what country or color.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

Nah, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
If you can't see that the stolen generation was not justified, then you maybe need to actually go and visit a community for a bit and see how the children live there.
Ironically, all the competent leaders they have, who have effected more change than anything, were mostly from the stolen generation.
I still fail to see how the Howard intervention was such a token effort. Why would they not be motivated to make a real difference ? Would not that cover tham in glory, when everyone else failed.
Truth is, zillions have been pissed down the drain on this problem, because the problem is a lack of engagement by the poeple in a solution.
While charity minded and "pastoral" minded bleeding hearts continue to encourage victim behaviour, nothing will happen.
I challenge you to go to a community for a month and then see how you feel.

Sorry, I'm confused. You mean that the stolen generation was a justifiable government policy or it wasn't?

I agree that there's been far too much money thrown at the problem and not nearly enough real solutions found, but I view the Stolen generation pretty much the same way I view all those poor bloody kids that where taken from their young mothers in the 50s and 60s and put up for adoption. Should never have happened.
There's been far too much messing with the family unit. So if there are people that are part of the stolen generation that are now leaders and they're contributing to the solutions then that's a good thing and we should spend more time with them working out what else needs to happen. But taking the kids away from their parents and not doing anything other than that is never a solution. It just makes things worse.
As to the Howard government intervention well perhaps we'll never know the motivations, or what really went on. Probably any FOI documents that come up will be at least 20 years away and heavily censored if we do get them anyway, so who's to say? It just seemed like an odd way to go about it to me and would have been completely unacceptable if they'd rocked up to Carlton or St Kilda with the military and said to a whole bunch of whites or european australians, "right, we're taking over." Don't you think?
Oh and I hardly think me rocking up for a month is going to help the situation any.

lucylespian

Scubascott wrote:

My understanding is that that is exactly what happened. The girl had been moved away from her own parents into the care of a foster family, and then this happened.

What are you getting at anyway? That all aboriginal people are unfit to raise kids? That we should take them all away and raise them in white suburbia? Great idea. That'll work. Hang on. Didn't someone try that before?. . . .

Reading from the paper in front of me, "the departmenttook her from a safe foster home in Cairns and returned her to the Aurukun community, where she was subsequently gang-raped".

Sadly, too many of the parents are incompetent.

My biggest problem is that anything to do with Aboriginals is never looked at objectively. There is always, ALWAYS a subjective hysteria which prevents any worthwhile action or solutions.

It is actually possible that this girl was consensual, because children raised there have a completely fdifferent set of reference pints to you or I. Before you scream at me about that, I have met a girl who was deaf, and she was raped daily by whoever. She never objected, or thought it was abnormal, because to was a completely usual part of fher daily existence, and always had been.
That in itself is intolerably outrageous, but it is actually possible and crediible.
You really have to spend time out there to understand this.

That is all.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

...

It is actually possible that this girl was consensual, because children raised there have a completely fdifferent set of reference pints to you or I. Before you scream at me about that, I have met a girl who was deaf, and she was raped daily by whoever. She never objected, or thought it was abnormal, because to was a completely usual part of fher daily existence, and always had been.
That in itself is intolerably outrageous, but it is actually possible and crediible.
You really have to spend time out there to understand this.

That is all.

Actually I'd agree with that. I quite believe it actually. And it is intolerably outrageous.

Anon

Scubascott wrote:

My understanding is that that is exactly what happened. The girl had been moved away from her own parents into the care of a foster family, and then this happened.

my understand is this, which was in the original article you posted.

'Bligh added that the girl, who had been returned to the community after being put in foster care, was once more back in foster care, receiving medical and other treatment, and is reportedly doing well'.

It has also been reported from other outlets that in 2006, an officer from the Child Safety department was dismissed after placing the girl back into the Aurukun community from foster care.

lucylespian

Jeanie wrote:

Actually I'd agree with that. I quite believe it actually. And it is intolerably outrageous.

Of course, and I know you agree with this, it was still rape, because she was 10, and while she may not have known the significance of what was happening, the rapists surely did.
Unless there were juvenile males who also thought nothing abnormal was happening, becasue of teh circumstances of their upbringing, which is another outrage in itself.

Everything about this whole situation is odious.

Even the DOCS worker being dismissed for returning her is odious, becasue if that person had not, he/she nay have been accused of keeping teh child away unreasonably, or "stealing" it.
Glad I'm not involved in this shitfight, there is no wins for anyone here.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

Of course, and I know you agree with this, it was still rape, because she was 10, and while she may not have known the significance of what was happening, the rapists surely did.
Unless there were juvenile males who also thought nothing abnormal was happening, becasue of teh circumstances of their upbringing, which is another outrage in itself.

Everything about this whole situation is odious.

Even the DOCS worker being dismissed for returning her is odious, becasue if that person had not, he/she nay have been accused of keeping teh child away unreasonably, or "stealing" it.
Glad I'm not involved in this shitfight, there is no wins for anyone here.

Yes, and I'd agree with all that you've said here too lucy.
It's just a horrible, vile situation from start to finish AND probably just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's really going on. Both in terms of what's happening in aboriginal communities and in terms of DOCS.

Unfortunately I can't see it getting better before it gets a lot worse to be honest. So much of what is going on is systemic and been going on for so long that it's going to be quite the battle to fix it.

lucylespian

Jeanie wrote:

Yes, and I'd agree with all that you've said here too lucy.
It's just a horrible, vile situation from start to finish AND probably just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's really going on. Both in terms of what's happening in aboriginal communities and in terms of DOCS.

Unfortunately I can't see it getting better before it gets a lot worse to be honest. So much of what is going on is systemic and been going on for so long that it's going to be quite the battle to fix it.

The solution needs to come form within. Kids need good role models and there is too little of that.
It won't happen in my lifetime.
I actually believe that teh existing communities almsot need to be completely destroyed.
They are typically in isolated places, with no surrounding infrastructure, littel employment, and a legion of problems caused by teh physical and social isolation and decades of disrepair and neglect.
A completely clean sheet is needed.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

The solution needs to come form within. Kids need good role models and there is too little of that.
It won't happen in my lifetime.
I actually believe that teh existing communities almsot need to be completely destroyed.
They are typically in isolated places, with no surrounding infrastructure, littel employment, and a legion of problems caused by teh physical and social isolation and decades of disrepair and neglect.
A completely clean sheet is needed.

Do you think if we somehow found ways that the existing communities could become involved in renewal and regeneration projects that it would benefit them? I've always felt that if they want to be in their communities that's fine by me as long as they were able to capitilize on their own culture. If they had businesses set up that were suited to where they are, if the whole community could focus on that it might help. Provide work, generate income, embrace their heritage. My thinking being that the flow on effect would be the improvement in the overall well being of the community. Simple I realize but there are many things about the aboriginal culture that other communities seem to have been able to utilize to their advantage. I mean it does seem to be working more in some places than others.

lucylespian

Jeanie wrote:

Do you think if we somehow found ways that the existing communities could become involved in renewal and regeneration projects that it would benefit them? I've always felt that if they want to be in their communities that's fine by me as long as they were able to capitilize on their own culture. If they had businesses set up that were suited to where they are, if the whole community could focus on that it might help. Provide work, generate income, embrace their heritage. My thinking being that the flow on effect would be the improvement in the overall well being of the community. Simple I realize but there are many things about the aboriginal culture that other communities seem to have been able to utilize to their advantage. I mean it does seem to be working more in some places than others.

There is goos evidence that a return to a traditional, alcohol free way of life gives much better results.

HOweve, that is a segregation policy in a lot of ways.

Saying, lets from arts and crafts co-operatives is very "special school" too. Sure it seems to work for a bit, but it does not lead to longer term wider improvement.
Ther is no reason why Aboriginla people cannot have the same range of job vocations as anyone else, but that is not going to happen while people are living in Aurukun.

Hre's a quick description from teh Austrlain I am erading.

"Aurukun has always b een an uneasys compromise, a mission community of 20 or so rival clans brought together by teh Presbyterian church early last century and never quite living in harmony. From CAirns, Aurukun is a two hour flight over complete wilderness, no towns, only dirt roads and open country. Ther's only one shop, a post office, a pub that is regularly closed by brawls, and a swimming pool that has not topened because the filter broke, and no-oner has managed to get the parts to fix it. ( Ironically, I saw an article in a journal saying how a pool had slashed skin infections, and kids were not allowed in unless they had been to school, it may have been the same one)."

In short, it's an isolated hellhole, and nothing can fix it. It wasa a mistake to put it there, and the on;y solution I can see is to bulldoze it, and start wiht a new solution that does not involve shoving a community ion such an isolated place and expecting to function in what we call a normla fashion.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

There is goos evidence that a return to a traditional, alcohol free way of life gives much better results.

HOweve, that is a segregation policy in a lot of ways.

Saying, lets from arts and crafts co-operatives is very "special school" too. Sure it seems to work for a bit, but it does not lead to longer term wider improvement.
Ther is no reason why Aboriginla people cannot have the same range of job vocations as anyone else, but that is not going to happen while people are living in Aurukun.

Hre's a quick description from teh Austrlain I am erading.

"Aurukun has always b een an uneasys compromise, a mission community of 20 or so rival clans brought together by teh Presbyterian church early last century and never quite living in harmony. From CAirns, Aurukun is a two hour flight over complete wilderness, no towns, only dirt roads and open country. Ther's only one shop, a post office, a pub that is regularly closed by brawls, and a swimming pool that has not topened because the filter broke, and no-oner has managed to get the parts to fix it. ( Ironically, I saw an article in a journal saying how a pool had slashed skin infections, and kids were not allowed in unless they had been to school, it may have been the same one)."

In short, it's an isolated hellhole, and nothing can fix it. It wasa a mistake to put it there, and the on;y solution I can see is to bulldoze it, and start wiht a new solution that does not involve shoving a community ion such an isolated place and expecting to function in what we call a normla fashion.

Oh I wasn't thinking of it as the only solution you know? Just thinking that it could be a start in some places. And much an all as I baulk at the idea of making them dry zones, I really think that there must be some kind of limit, a way of policing alcohol in those remote places for a time or permanently depending on the response, because it doesn't help. So yeah, it's a fine line I guess. Because I wouldn't want it to be segregation, I would like to see those that want to be there given the opportunity to thrive at things worthwhile and those that want out the opportunity to get out.
I certainly wouldn't want a mandate that "you know this is our little community project and you're all going to participate because that's what we're about." I can see that the art project idea has an element of "special school" to it. But there are so many things that could happen. I mean what about fixing things like the pool and having a swimming coach or swimming clinics for the kids? And I know they take the footy clinics to a lot of these communities. I mean I can't see them starting a golf club to keep the fellas occupied but there must be some kinds of things they could do? As a multi pronged approach.

Although by the sounds of Aurukun it does sound beyond redemption. But what then do we do with those that are there lucy? I mean if it's the only life they know how to wind it up and move them somewhere and help them to thrive? Wouldn't just shutting it down simply move the problem somewhere else? Scatter it? Because I can't see them unlearning the behaviour can you? Well not immediately. So what's to encourage them to try things differently in a new environment?

lucylespian

Jeanie wrote:

Oh I wasn't thinking of it as the only solution you know? Just thinking that it could be a start in some places. And much an all as I baulk at the idea of making them dry zones, I really think that there must be some kind of limit, a way of policing alcohol in those remote places for a time or permanently depending on the response, because it doesn't help. So yeah, it's a fine line I guess. Because I wouldn't want it to be segregation, I would like to see those that want to be there given the opportunity to thrive at things worthwhile and those that want out the opportunity to get out.
I certainly wouldn't want a mandate that "you know this is our little community project and you're all going to participate because that's what we're about." I can see that the art project idea has an element of "special school" to it. But there are so many things that could happen. I mean what about fixing things like the pool and having a swimming coach or swimming clinics for the kids? And I know they take the footy clinics to a lot of these communities. I mean I can't see them starting a golf club to keep the fellas occupied but there must be some kinds of things they could do? As a multi pronged approach.

Although by the sounds of Aurukun it does sound beyond redemption. But what then do we do with those that are there lucy? I mean if it's the only life they know how to wind it up and move them somewhere and help them to thrive? Wouldn't just shutting it down simply move the problem somewhere else? Scatter it? Because I can't see them unlearning the behaviour can you? Well not immediately. So what's to encourage them to try things differently in a new environment?

Closing that community and relocting everybody soounds extreme, btu where do get teh role models for different behaviour if you leave it there. Over 100yr it's been there, and it's like a post-apocolyptic nightmare.
If you moved to another remote location, that would not be good, but it's the physical isolation that's a big problem. These communities or "missions" were shoved where they are to get them out of teh way inot an area hat no-one else wanted.
Keeping them there is perpetuating the mistake, and the kind of apartheid thinking that put them there in teh first place. Bringing them closer to broader opportunity will mean some adjusstment, but in the long run it will benefit them.
It's actually ironic that the presently in deep shit Justice Marcus Einfiled led a Royal Commission in NSW at Toomelah where I worked, which tried to fix a range of things,. He was highly regarded there a the time for his effotrs, but it too, is an isolated island of no opportunity.

The brutal truth is, either we walk away and they go back to a tribal exitence without booze and welfare, or they move along into the 21st century and accept all the limitations of behaviour that go with the benefits.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

Closing that community and relocting everybody soounds extreme, btu where do get teh role models for different behaviour if you leave it there. Over 100yr it's been there, and it's like a post-apocolyptic nightmare.
If you moved to another remote location, that would not be good, but it's the physical isolation that's a big problem. These communities or "missions" were shoved where they are to get them out of teh way inot an area hat no-one else wanted.
Keeping them there is perpetuating the mistake, and the kind of apartheid thinking that put them there in teh first place. Bringing them closer to broader opportunity will mean some adjusstment, but in the long run it will benefit them.
It's actually ironic that the presently in deep shit Justice Marcus Einfiled led a Royal Commission in NSW at Toomelah where I worked, which tried to fix a range of things,. He was highly regarded there a the time for his effotrs, but it too, is an isolated island of no opportunity.

The brutal truth is, either we walk away and they go back to a tribal exitence without booze and welfare, or they move along into the 21st century and accept all the limitations of behaviour that go with the benefits.

Well that sounds plausible lucy, I would just worry that if the behaviours are already learned they're not going to be unlearned so quickly. Remote where there's nothing is not good for anyone but if we do move them then what?
Would we see the kinds of things we see in other places like Redfern? Or with some of the troubles we've seen with some of the migrant community here? Sure we'd be erasing the problems caused by the remoteness but I can't see them suddenly embracing a new life in a new place, you know? I just envisage that "push me and I will resist" mindset.
When you were at Toomelah, were there possibilities in the surrounds for things like tourist based business? Or even other possibilities like bush foods, opportunity to grow things? Make work from what was around, and somehow give a sense of purpose? Or was it one of those endless desert, nothing places? I just think that whether we move them and attempt to integrate or we leave them where they are if they choose to stay, we need to be completely looking at all the possibilities. Sustainable solutions. And yeah, I guess that means throwing money at it for a while longer but not for stupid things like house repairs on houses that are endlessly destroyed. Maybe things do need to be militant to a degree and perhaps the army going in isn't such a bad idea if it's in the role of peace keepers. My objection to the move made by the government was always based on the compulsory aquisition of the land. It's a fine mess that's for sure, and this latest debarcle just one in a long line really. No wonder people throw up their hands and walk away shaking their heads.

lucylespian

Jeanie wrote:

Well that sounds plausible lucy, I would just worry that if the behaviours are already learned they're not going to be unlearned so quickly. Remote where there's nothing is not good for anyone but if we do move them then what?
Would we see the kinds of things we see in other places like Redfern? Or with some of the troubles we've seen with some of the migrant community here? Sure we'd be erasing the problems caused by the remoteness but I can't see them suddenly embracing a new life in a new place, you know? I just envisage that "push me and I will resist" mindset.
When you were at Toomelah, were there possibilities in the surrounds for things like tourist based business? Or even other possibilities like bush foods, opportunity to grow things? Make work from what was around, and somehow give a sense of purpose? Or was it one of those endless desert, nothing places? I just think that whether we move them and attempt to integrate or we leave them where they are if they choose to stay, we need to be completely looking at all the possibilities. Sustainable solutions. And yeah, I guess that means throwing money at it for a while longer but not for stupid things like house repairs on houses that are endlessly destroyed. Maybe things do need to be militant to a degree and perhaps the army going in isn't such a bad idea if it's in the role of peace keepers. My objection to the move made by the government was always based on the compulsory aquisition of the land. It's a fine mess that's for sure, and this latest debarcle just one in a long line really. No wonder people throw up their hands and walk away shaking their heads.

You are right, relocating would not produce better behaviour.
Given that there must have been a fair amount of evidence given at that trial that the sex was consesual, I just wonder at the kind of upbringing that would lead to a ten year old consenting to sex with 9 men, then those men thinking that consent was valid.
The whole community is clearly rotten to the core.
What;s the bet hat instead of Rudd apologisinf for the "Stolen Generation", he is forced to repeat the tactic as the only conscionable course of action.
Seriously, how can any child be safely left in that community , without 24 hr protective guard ?
MAybe the rosy glasses will finally come off.

Scubascott

lucylespian wrote:

I just wonder at the kind of upbringing that would lead to a ten year old consenting to sex with 9 men, then those men thinking that consent was valid.
The whole community is clearly rotten to the core.

Exactly what I meant with the sentence I typed before the article. I find it difficult not to just give in to despair when I think about this problem. How the hell do you fix something that goes so deep?