No I think you paint a depressing picture (and definetly not bigger)...as a species (meaning us) who have the ability to prevent this from occurring I think we should...this is unfortunate....and nice try of bringing in the abortion debate into it....fuck sakes....
I wasn't trying to bring abortion into it at all. Not sure where you got that.
Also I didn't say we should not try and prevent it.
Perhaps a bit of remedial reading comprehension is in order.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't ever try to be controversial. I state what I think.
Think of it this way, if someone had the power to keep all the dinosaur species and every plant, animal and insect that existed at that time alive, then people and most of the mammals and animals we have now may have never come into being.
I just wonder how we are modifying the future - or the unknown - by placing such high importance on keeping the known hanging on.
And again - I made it a point to say that I think we should save them if possible, but you juveniles choose to grab onto whatever gets your dander up.
"..you juveniles.."? Again, It seems like you've become overcome with an unusual, and unhealthy dose of arrogance.
Anyway, your initial post stated that
I think we should make a reasonable effort to save species, but the process of evolution is such that something else will take it's place. By keeping weak species hanging on, we're preventing new species from occupying the niche.
I get the impression that you believe the human destruction of the environment, and with it the destruction of various animal species, is a natural phenomenon along the lines of natural selection? At the same time, I get the impression that your religious convictions lead you to believe that this is all well and good in the big scheme of things which your God has ordained? Will you be just as content to see the human race disappear by way of natural disasters or disease as we slowly destroy that which sustains us? Would this also fit nicely into your 'bigger picture' of the world.
And as far as humans 'allowing' new species to develop, please provide a precedent.
I don't understand the sadness over an extinction. Don't get me wrong, I think we should make a reasonable effort to save species, but the process of evolution is such that something else will take it's place. By keeping weak species hanging on, we're preventing new species from occupying the niche. Doesn't it make sense to be as sad for what we're not allowing to come into existence as it is to be sad for something that dies out?
Did you even think that maybe these dolphins went extinct due to hunting by us humans? I haven't heard that this is the reason, but illegal hunting and killing of scarce species is the #1 reason they become endangered, and later, possibly extinct. We could be the very reason these dolphins became extinct.
So, YES, there is a good reason that we should be ashamed we couldn't save these dolphins.
Did you even think that maybe these dolphins went extinct due to hunting by us humans? I haven't heard that this is the reason, but illegal hunting and killing of scarce species is the #1 reason they become endangered, and later, possibly extinct. We could be the very reason these dolphins became extinct.
So, YES, there is a good reason that we should be ashamed we couldn't save these dolphins.
'For the baiji, the culprit was a degraded habitat - busy ship traffic, which confounds the sonar the dolphin uses to find food, and overfishing and pollution in the Yangtze waters of eastern China, the expedition said.'
'For the baiji, the culprit was a degraded habitat - busy ship traffic, which confounds the sonar the dolphin uses to find food, and overfishing and pollution in the Yangtze waters of eastern China, the expedition said.'
So, then is was humans in their habitat. We are the culprit.
"..you juveniles.."? Again, It seems like you've become overcome with an unusual, and unhealthy dose of arrogance.
Anyway, your initial post stated that
I get the impression that you believe the human destruction of the environment, and with it the destruction of various animal species, is a natural phenomenon along the lines of natural selection? At the same time, I get the impression that your religious convictions lead you to believe that this is all well and good in the big scheme of things which your God has ordained? Will you be just as content to see the human race disappear by way of natural disasters or disease as we slowly destroy that which sustains us? Would this also fit nicely into your 'bigger picture' of the world.
And as far as humans 'allowing' new species to develop, please provide a precedent.
I call them like I see them.
I do believe that humans impact on their environment is just a part of the natural world the same as any other animal's impact or any other natural phenomena.
Please do not let your prejudices drag religion into this. I've said nothing about God in this thread. In fact, I've been arguing evolution.
My precedent is the principle of natural selection. When a species dies out, it is because it couldn't adapt to survive. Something better, stronger and more suited will take its place eventually. Don't you see that by keeping weaker species hanging on, we are preventing or at least slowing the evolution of newer and stronger species?
(and before you jump back to the same old tired conclusion, I'm not saying we should hunt, kill, pollute or destroy all animals and plants recklessly for our own amusement or gain.)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Did you even think that maybe these dolphins went extinct due to hunting by us humans? I haven't heard that this is the reason, but illegal hunting and killing of scarce species is the #1 reason they become endangered, and later, possibly extinct. We could be the very reason these dolphins became extinct.
So, YES, there is a good reason that we should be ashamed we couldn't save these dolphins.
Sure hunting and killing may have been the reason. Just like hunting and killing by one animal over another may have bee the reason the latter went extinct.
Again I ask. If some force were able to keep things exactly as they were when the dinosaurs existed, humans and most of what we know today would have never come into being. Would you want it that way?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Did you even think that maybe these dolphins went extinct due to hunting by us humans? I haven't heard that this is the reason, but illegal hunting and killing of scarce species is the #1 reason they become endangered, and later, possibly extinct. We could be the very reason these dolphins became extinct.
So, YES, there is a good reason that we should be ashamed we couldn't save these dolphins.
Actually poaching (illegal killing) is not the #1 reason for species extinctions....it is loss of habitat. Thousands (probably millions) of species are very habitat specific. They need a certain type of tree or plant, the right water temperature or some similar requirement. Here in the Alabama, a large of aquatic snails and mollusks went extinct in the 20th century because we dammed most of our free-flowing rivers to feed our appetite for electricity. Those species need the fast flowing waters of the river to respire, feed and reproduce. The impounded lakes wiped them out.
This is similar in a way to what probably happened to the dolphin. The water became too contaminated for their needs or for the needs of their prey, fish. Their river habitat got over-fished by humans, leaving them lacking. Increased boat traffic may have resulted in collisions that killed the dolphins, this is what happens to Manatees in Florida.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Again I ask. If some force were able to keep things exactly as they were when the dinosaurs existed, humans and most of what we know today would have never come into being. Would you want it that way?
Well, for one thing, we (as in humans) belong to the Earth. Not the other way around. So if we never came into being that would have been fine, it's nature's way of working. The dinosaurs' extinction was from an asteroid. In other words, (cosmic) nature caused it. As Tybird mentioned, the #1 reason that animals go extinct now is from loss of habitat (I apparently was wrong for my reasoning, but it is still caused by humans nonetheless, which is what I'm going after). So we are directly at fault for why these dolphins went extinct. It's not the whole evolution ideal that you're thinking. If we humans listened more to the land and not to our selfish nature, we'd be taking better care of it.
Or nothing, except for maybe cockroaches and other nasty bugs.
Possibly.
But look at it this way - if all that existed right now were cockroaches, nasty bugs and human, would we be trying to keep them from going extinct? I actually think we would because it's the known and the comfortable to us, but I wonder if keeping weaker species surviving is actually doing harm in the long, long, long run.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well, for one thing, we (as in humans) belong to the Earth. Not the other way around. So if we never came into being that would have been fine, it's nature's way of working. The dinosaurs' extinction was from an asteroid. In other words, (cosmic) nature caused it. As Tybird mentioned, the #1 reason that animals go extinct now is from loss of habitat (I apparently was wrong for my reasoning, but it is still caused by humans nonetheless, which is what I'm going after). So we are directly at fault for why these dolphins went extinct. It's not the whole evolution ideal that you're thinking. If we humans listened more to the land and not to our selfish nature, we'd be taking better care of it.
You are correct in stating that the majority of extinctions can list human activity as the main causal factor. If we got nit picky about the whole business, we could describe "loss of habitat" as an indirect result of human activity and "hunting/poaching" as a direct result of human activity. It could also be argued that both are direct results of human activity.
It is sad that the Chinese prior to Mao were a nation that probably did "listen to the land" better any Western civilization.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
But look at it this way - if all that existed right now were cockroaches, nasty bugs and human, would we be trying to keep them from going extinct? I actually think we would because it's the known and the comfortable to us, but I wonder if keeping weaker species surviving is actually doing harm in the long, long, long run.
I know you mean this in jest, but it's impossible for humans to flourish if the only other species aliver were cockroaches and other nasty bugs. Our civilization would be dead.
But look at it this way - if all that existed right now were cockroaches, nasty bugs and human, would we be trying to keep them from going extinct? I actually think we would because it's the known and the comfortable to us, but I wonder if keeping weaker species surviving is actually doing harm in the long, long, long run.
The fact is we can make all species (except maybe the insects) 'weak species.'
Maybe so. Of course, eliminating all of them would certainly make us a weak species as well.
Also, I believe that at least some of the species who go extinct do so not as a direct result of man.
but, these dolphins are now extinct BECAUSE of man....
"For the baiji, the culprit was a degraded habitat - busy ship traffic, which confounds the sonar the dolphin uses to find food, and overfishing and pollution in the Yangtze waters of eastern China, the expedition said."
what happens to these animals will eventually happen to man
but, these dolphins are now extinct BECAUSE of man....
"For the baiji, the culprit was a degraded habitat - busy ship traffic, which confounds the sonar the dolphin uses to find food, and overfishing and pollution in the Yangtze waters of eastern China, the expedition said."
what happens to these animals will eventually happen to man
True (although their inability to adapt did play a part)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I suspect the major changes to the habitat happened within only a couple of dolphin generations.....evolution is a very slow mechanism.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Native Americans and Eskimos still listen to the land, what's left of them, sadly.
Very true, very, very true......I am aghast that I did not even think of them....especially since a large portion of their native diet is from aquatic mammals. Interesting fact....prior to the mass production of PCBs and extensive use of mercury by the modern world, the diet of the Eskimos was/is the healthy diet on the planet.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
There's always hope that this little jewel is still alive.........the Ivory-billed Woodpecker was declared extinct in the 1940's........yet there is a belief that at least two populations may still exist in Arkansas and Florida. There is also rumors of the Imperial Woodpecker still living in the Mexican highlands.
I had never heard this particular species referred to as the "white dolphin." The Yangzte Dolphin, a similar species to the Amazon Dolphin.
It is true about the re-discovery of the ivory-billed woodpecker. It happened in Arkansas in 2004, 66 years after the last confirmed sighting.
It is true about the re-discovery of the ivory-billed woodpecker. It happened in Arkansas in 2004, 66 years after the last confirmed sighting.
A team from a certain university here in Alabama have detected/seen/witnessed what could several of the birds in the panhandle of Florida.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I've been reading about this too, tybird....Let's hope! Glad to see that you are informed....are you secretly on the team??? Hee, hee....
No.....alas, I am not. I do believe that I have met the Professor in charge of the Florida efforts. Who knows....I will be taking a field ornithology course in January...maybe one day I will get to participate in the search efforts. I have heard Bobby Harrison, one of the gentlemen to see the bird in Arkansas, speak at a function here in Birmingham.
There has been talk of possible search efforts here in Alabama (in the Tensaw Delta region) for both the Ivory-billed Woodpecker and the Bachman's Warbler. They share some habitat characteristics and the "extinct" tag.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
No.....alas, I am not. I do believe that I have met the Professor in charge of the Florida efforts. Who knows....I will be taking a field ornithology course in January...maybe one day I will get to participate in the search efforts. I have heard Bobby Harrison, one of the gentlemen to see the bird in Arkansas, speak at a function here in Birmingham.
There has been talk of possible search efforts here in Alabama (in the Tensaw Delta region) for both the Ivory-billed Woodpecker and the Bachman's Warbler. They share some habitat characteristics and the "extinct" tag.
Wow! Very cool! Much success to you with your new class. Hopefully they'll document some sightings.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Comments
I wasn't trying to bring abortion into it at all. Not sure where you got that.
Also I didn't say we should not try and prevent it.
Perhaps a bit of remedial reading comprehension is in order.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
"..you juveniles.."? Again, It seems like you've become overcome with an unusual, and unhealthy dose of arrogance.
Anyway, your initial post stated that
I get the impression that you believe the human destruction of the environment, and with it the destruction of various animal species, is a natural phenomenon along the lines of natural selection? At the same time, I get the impression that your religious convictions lead you to believe that this is all well and good in the big scheme of things which your God has ordained? Will you be just as content to see the human race disappear by way of natural disasters or disease as we slowly destroy that which sustains us? Would this also fit nicely into your 'bigger picture' of the world.
And as far as humans 'allowing' new species to develop, please provide a precedent.
Did you even think that maybe these dolphins went extinct due to hunting by us humans? I haven't heard that this is the reason, but illegal hunting and killing of scarce species is the #1 reason they become endangered, and later, possibly extinct. We could be the very reason these dolphins became extinct.
So, YES, there is a good reason that we should be ashamed we couldn't save these dolphins.
'For the baiji, the culprit was a degraded habitat - busy ship traffic, which confounds the sonar the dolphin uses to find food, and overfishing and pollution in the Yangtze waters of eastern China, the expedition said.'
I call them like I see them.
I do believe that humans impact on their environment is just a part of the natural world the same as any other animal's impact or any other natural phenomena.
Please do not let your prejudices drag religion into this. I've said nothing about God in this thread. In fact, I've been arguing evolution.
My precedent is the principle of natural selection. When a species dies out, it is because it couldn't adapt to survive. Something better, stronger and more suited will take its place eventually. Don't you see that by keeping weaker species hanging on, we are preventing or at least slowing the evolution of newer and stronger species?
(and before you jump back to the same old tired conclusion, I'm not saying we should hunt, kill, pollute or destroy all animals and plants recklessly for our own amusement or gain.)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Sure hunting and killing may have been the reason. Just like hunting and killing by one animal over another may have bee the reason the latter went extinct.
Again I ask. If some force were able to keep things exactly as they were when the dinosaurs existed, humans and most of what we know today would have never come into being. Would you want it that way?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
This is similar in a way to what probably happened to the dolphin. The water became too contaminated for their needs or for the needs of their prey, fish. Their river habitat got over-fished by humans, leaving them lacking. Increased boat traffic may have resulted in collisions that killed the dolphins, this is what happens to Manatees in Florida.
Well, for one thing, we (as in humans) belong to the Earth. Not the other way around. So if we never came into being that would have been fine, it's nature's way of working. The dinosaurs' extinction was from an asteroid. In other words, (cosmic) nature caused it. As Tybird mentioned, the #1 reason that animals go extinct now is from loss of habitat (I apparently was wrong for my reasoning, but it is still caused by humans nonetheless, which is what I'm going after). So we are directly at fault for why these dolphins went extinct. It's not the whole evolution ideal that you're thinking. If we humans listened more to the land and not to our selfish nature, we'd be taking better care of it.
Or nothing, except for maybe cockroaches and other nasty bugs.
naděje umírá poslední
Possibly.
But look at it this way - if all that existed right now were cockroaches, nasty bugs and human, would we be trying to keep them from going extinct? I actually think we would because it's the known and the comfortable to us, but I wonder if keeping weaker species surviving is actually doing harm in the long, long, long run.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It is sad that the Chinese prior to Mao were a nation that probably did "listen to the land" better any Western civilization.
The fact is we can make all species (except maybe the insects) 'weak species.'
naděje umírá poslední
Maybe so. Of course, eliminating all of them would certainly make us a weak species as well.
Also, I believe that at least some of the species who go extinct do so not as a direct result of man.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
"For the baiji, the culprit was a degraded habitat - busy ship traffic, which confounds the sonar the dolphin uses to find food, and overfishing and pollution in the Yangtze waters of eastern China, the expedition said."
what happens to these animals will eventually happen to man
True (although their inability to adapt did play a part)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Few animals can adapt that rapidly.
naděje umírá poslední
No argument here.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It is true about the re-discovery of the ivory-billed woodpecker. It happened in Arkansas in 2004, 66 years after the last confirmed sighting.
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As Gandhi once said:
"The Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not everyman's greed"..........
I ate the last white dolphin. If you want to bring it out of extinction, better search for it in my toilet bowl.
How's that for a joke? Funny? No?
As long as we're all joking...
-Enoch Powell
I've been reading about this too, tybird....Let's hope! Glad to see that you are informed....are you secretly on the team??? Hee, hee....
There has been talk of possible search efforts here in Alabama (in the Tensaw Delta region) for both the Ivory-billed Woodpecker and the Bachman's Warbler. They share some habitat characteristics and the "extinct" tag.
Wow! Very cool! Much success to you with your new class. Hopefully they'll document some sightings.