If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream-and not make dreams your master; If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings-nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And-which is more-you'll be a Man, my son!
...
Rudyard Kipling
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Some christians believe he experienced complete separation from God or Hell, upon his death for those 3 days.
Would that be the Earth by any chance?
As for what is special about Jesus? In my eyes not too much. A few stories about the guy and that is about all. Coperfield's tricks put that old school alchemy stuff to shame.
jesus was hung on a cross and went through a sad death so we could have salvation
thank you god
...
According to who? God? Jesus, Himself? Men that wrote about Jesus after His death? The Church that was founded upon His Name? People who interpret the books written by men about the life of Jesus after His death? The people who listen to the men in the Church founded upon His Name who interpret the books written by men about the life of Jesus after His death? Who?
...
And I would invest a lot more stock in Christianity (or any other religion) if the people who claimed to be Christians acted more like the teachings of Jesus. I mean, how many Christians support War? The Death Penalty? What about all that 'Love Thy Enemy' and 'Turn the Other Cheek' thing? Or how about placing humanity above economics? The same way I don't believe the Muslim that believes Allah blesses the destruction of lives in his name. I'm more along the line of thinking Jesus saying, "Do Not Kill in My Name" and Mohammed saying, "Do Not Die for mine".
...
And if you think about it... why would Jesus save America? Aren't we are the modern equivilent of Rome. Shouldn't He come back to save Darfur? I mean, I know I live a pretty comfortable life... a Hell of a lot more comfortably than the poor kid in Africa who lives under the constant pain of hunger and the continuing threat of having his life ended by machette. If Jesus is coming to save us Middle Class Americans... I would think He might have His priorities all screwed up.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
As for what is special about Jesus? In my eyes not too much. A few stories about the guy and that is about all. Coperfield's tricks put that old school alchemy stuff to shame.
it very well may be, at least it may be Canada
i think the water into wine woulda been a whole lot cooler if he had dry ice and a laser show, i'll give you that.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
...
And if you think about it... why would Jesus save America? Aren't we are the modern equivilent of Rome. Shouldn't He come back to save Darfur? I mean, I know I live a pretty comfortable life... a Hell of a lot more comfortably than the poor kid in Africa who lives under the constant pain of hunger and the continuing threat of having his life ended by machette. If Jesus is coming to save us Middle Class Americans... I would think He might have His priorities all screwed up.
I think he is meant to save us from the burden of being men. After that Darfurians (?) will have an easier judgment than we lazy filthyrich occidentals. What you can do with your time and money is help make the life of some people in Darfur a bit less hellish, that's supposed to help your salvation application.
Basically, if people spent more time actually following the only thing jesus asked us rather than fighting over insignificant details of religions legitimating human hatred the world could be less of a drag.
I think he is meant to save us from the burden of being men. After that Darfurians (?) will have an easier judgment than we lazy filthyrich occidentals. What you can do with your time and money is help make the life of some people in Darfur a bit less hellish, that's supposed to help your salvation application.
Basically, if people spent more time actually following the only thing jesus asked us rather than fighting over insignificant details of religions legitimating human hatred the world could be less of a drag.
...
So... as Christians... we SHOULD take what Jesus said at the Sermon at the mount and practice those teaching in our everyday life... instead of letting Him take all of the blame for our sins, failures and misgivings? That we should stop taking little bits of what in written in the Bible to rationalize our actions by sayine Jesus validates them? (i.e. Jesus: "I come not in peace, but with a sword." ... justifies War... murder).
...
and don't get me wrong... I don't mistrust Jesus. But, i don't have a whole lot of faith in His fan club... or many of His fans.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
So... as Christians... we SHOULD take what Jesus said at the Sermon at the mount and practice those teaching in our everyday life... instead of letting Him take all of the blame for our sins, failures and misgivings? That we should stop taking little bits of what in written in the Bible to rationalize our actions by sayine Jesus validates them? (i.e. Jesus: "I come not in peace, but with a sword." ... justifies War... murder).
...
and don't get me wrong... I don't mistrust Jesus. But, i don't have a whole lot of faith in His fan club... or many of His fans.
I think (it's only my opinion) we should forget the obscure part which are pretty much up for interpretation, and interpreting 2000 year old scripts is not as easy as it seems. However the message "peace and love" and "do unto others as you would do to yourself" seem pretty straightforward. I was more thinking about these straightforward messages than the obscure ones tainted with more or less pathetic interpretations depending on which fan club you listen to.
Nobody is perfect (again, my opinion!) so basically let's not say "my interpretation is better than yours" and agree to follow only the parts that are easily understandable.
I don't have any faith in any fan clubs (not talking music here!) as every single one is biaised to have me believe some stupid thing.
I think (it's only my opinion) we should forget the obscure part which are pretty much up for interpretation, and interpreting 2000 year old scripts is not as easy as it seems. However the message "peace and love" and "do unto others as you would do to yourself" seem pretty straightforward. I was more thinking about these straightforward messages than the obscure ones tainted with more or less pathetic interpretations depending on which fan club you listen to.
Nobody is perfect (again, my opinion!) so basically let's not say "my interpretation is better than yours" and agree to follow only the parts that are easily understandable.
I don't have any faith in any fan clubs (not talking music here!) as every single one is biaised to have me believe some stupid thing.
...
It sounds like you and I are on common ground... if I'm understanding where you are coming from. We don't buy into the interpretation of the Bible according to the Church or the preacher. And that no one interpretation is better than another... faith is personal and you should express it in your own way... by living your life to those guidelines, instead of trying to make others adhere to your beliefs. Am I far offf base with this?
And I, for one, make my own interpretations based upon what is written (because it is pretty much all we can go by... revised or ommited if applicable) and my own life experiences. And yeah... you come away with the basic, 'Love Thy Neighbor' and 'Do Unto Others' things. I'm not worrying about having others believe in anything I say or do. It's my gig, just like yours is yours... neither is right or wrong because the truth is... neither of us knows for sure. I don't follow... nor do I lead. This in my journey.
And, yeah... no one can be like Jesus... but, we can at least, follow His teachings, instead of taking one line He had spoken out of context and mold it to fit our needs. I can't stop people from doing this... and it's not up to me to do so... I just don't think that is doing Him justice.
But, that's just me... so, i don't do that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
jesus was hung on a cross and went through a sad death so we could have salvation
thank you god
Assuming there's a god, wouldn't one also be able to assume he's NOT the blood-thirsty god from the bible?
Anyway....the original posters question is one I've wondered many times. Why did HE get to be savior of the world? Why not one of us? I've been told that he was more righteous in heaven before we came to earth. But how would that happen unless God created him to be that way. So it all comes down to spiritual matter. Jesus was made from higher quality spiritual matter than any of us.
Of course, I don't believe any of that but that's what I concluded, if I were to be illogical enough to even entertain such ideas anymore.
Anyway....the original posters question is one I've wondered many times. Why did HE get to be savior of the world? Why not one of us? I've been told that he was more righteous in heaven before we came to earth. But how would that happen unless God created him to be that way. So it all comes down to spiritual matter. Jesus was made from higher quality spiritual matter than any of us.
well Jesus, according to the Bible, is God so he would be "higher quality spiritual matter".
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
...
if you please, me not being a Bible memorizing guy... where in the Bible... Chapter:Verse? I want to read it myself.
Thanx.
John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’
John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”
John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
According to a book written by men, no less. I guess that puts those women in their place now, doesn't it?
Not at all. Jesus first appeared to women after his resurrection and shepherds were the first to see him after he was born. Both are significant b/c in that era of time both were considered 2nd class citizens. Here's another resource: The second link demonstrates the social injustices that were common practice at that time and why what jesus did truly was radical.
i also think there's a lot of people out there who want to water down what jesus said or ignore some things he reportedly said.
I agree that many misinterpret and inject their bias into the teachings. Again, Jesus was not a moralizer or a hellfire & brimstone preacher. This is how he is presented by many and unfortunately this tends to turn people away from his teachings.
On a side, jesus said to seek spiritual guidance AS little children, not from them
Jesus said we must return and become like children (Matt. 18:3) Children are the great artists of life and hold characteristics that adults tend to lose as they grow older. We tend to lose our zest for life because of the deterioration of our mindfulness and the increase of attachments as we 'grow up'. How does one 'seek guidance AS little children' without observing and learning from them?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Jesus was (is) no more the "original radical" from a leftist's point of view the a conservative "moralist".
baraka, Jesus preached all the time in the Bible. His parables, lessons, etc., come largely from sermons given to large groups of people. And not a moralist? Does this mean He didn't give specific instructions on morality? From telling a woman who was shacking up with a man to "sin no more" to commanding generosity to saying it's a sin to lust in your heart. Jesus's entire message was how to act and be and believe. (In Him)
He also mentions Hell and says people will go there, and the idea of Hell is something many discount today.
Jesus was an ancient Jew, and He must be seen in that context. He's not a "radical" like Che Guevara or anyone else today. He's also not a "family values" conservative, but let's not act like he walked around spouting general, vague spiritual sayings and not condemning anyone/anything.
2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”
Can I question the "chosen people" line without being labeled?
Jesus said we must return and become like children (Matt. 18:3) Children are the great artists of life and hold characteristics that adults tend to lose as they grow older. We tend to lose our zest for life because of the deterioration of our mindfulness and the increase of attachments as we 'grow up'. How does one 'seek guidance AS little children' without observing and learning from them?
i guess we have a difference of opinion on what from little children means. When i hear someone say I am going to learn from them; that means I will seek wisdom from them. I see your point as to learning from them re: actions and observations but your original post seemed more to mean we should ask them about spiritual teachings, which I don't agree with. But from this explanation we are generally talking about the same things.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i guess we have a difference of opinion on what from little children means. When i hear someone say I am going to learn from them; that means I will seek wisdom from them. I see your point as to learning from them re: actions and observations but your original post seemed more to mean we should ask them about spiritual teachings, which I don't agree with. But from this explanation we are generally talking about the same things.
Perhaps I was not clear in my original post. When I say 'learn from the children', I mean through observance. I think we are on the same page about this.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Jesus was (is) no more the "original radical" from a leftist's point of view the a conservative "moralist".
baraka, Jesus preached all the time in the Bible. His parables, lessons, etc., come largely from sermons given to large groups of people. And not a moralist? Does this mean He didn't give specific instructions on morality? From telling a woman who was shacking up with a man to "sin no more" to commanding generosity to saying it's a sin to lust in your heart. Jesus's entire message was how to act and be and believe. (In Him)
He also mentions Hell and says people will go there, and the idea of Hell is something many discount today.
Jesus was an ancient Jew, and He must be seen in that context. He's not a "radical" like Che Guevara or anyone else today. He's also not a "family values" conservative, but let's not act like he walked around spouting general, vague spiritual sayings and not condemning anyone/anything.
ArmsinaV, I have to get off to work, so I respond in more detail later. I will just say that I think (just my opinion) that a lot of the dogma obscure the inner depth & beauty of Jesus's teachings. Also, I will add that in no way was Jesus like Che Guevara, so I agree with you there. I will attempt to explain my view more in depth later.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Comments
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream-and not make dreams your master; If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings-nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And-which is more-you'll be a Man, my son!
...
Rudyard Kipling
Hail, Hail!!!
Would that be the Earth by any chance?
As for what is special about Jesus? In my eyes not too much. A few stories about the guy and that is about all. Coperfield's tricks put that old school alchemy stuff to shame.
According to who? God? Jesus, Himself? Men that wrote about Jesus after His death? The Church that was founded upon His Name? People who interpret the books written by men about the life of Jesus after His death? The people who listen to the men in the Church founded upon His Name who interpret the books written by men about the life of Jesus after His death? Who?
...
And I would invest a lot more stock in Christianity (or any other religion) if the people who claimed to be Christians acted more like the teachings of Jesus. I mean, how many Christians support War? The Death Penalty? What about all that 'Love Thy Enemy' and 'Turn the Other Cheek' thing? Or how about placing humanity above economics? The same way I don't believe the Muslim that believes Allah blesses the destruction of lives in his name. I'm more along the line of thinking Jesus saying, "Do Not Kill in My Name" and Mohammed saying, "Do Not Die for mine".
...
And if you think about it... why would Jesus save America? Aren't we are the modern equivilent of Rome. Shouldn't He come back to save Darfur? I mean, I know I live a pretty comfortable life... a Hell of a lot more comfortably than the poor kid in Africa who lives under the constant pain of hunger and the continuing threat of having his life ended by machette. If Jesus is coming to save us Middle Class Americans... I would think He might have His priorities all screwed up.
Hail, Hail!!!
it very well may be, at least it may be Canada
i think the water into wine woulda been a whole lot cooler if he had dry ice and a laser show, i'll give you that.
I think he is meant to save us from the burden of being men. After that Darfurians (?) will have an easier judgment than we lazy filthyrich occidentals. What you can do with your time and money is help make the life of some people in Darfur a bit less hellish, that's supposed to help your salvation application.
Basically, if people spent more time actually following the only thing jesus asked us rather than fighting over insignificant details of religions legitimating human hatred the world could be less of a drag.
So... as Christians... we SHOULD take what Jesus said at the Sermon at the mount and practice those teaching in our everyday life... instead of letting Him take all of the blame for our sins, failures and misgivings? That we should stop taking little bits of what in written in the Bible to rationalize our actions by sayine Jesus validates them? (i.e. Jesus: "I come not in peace, but with a sword." ... justifies War... murder).
...
and don't get me wrong... I don't mistrust Jesus. But, i don't have a whole lot of faith in His fan club... or many of His fans.
Hail, Hail!!!
well thank god i'm a woman. i am already saved.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think (it's only my opinion) we should forget the obscure part which are pretty much up for interpretation, and interpreting 2000 year old scripts is not as easy as it seems. However the message "peace and love" and "do unto others as you would do to yourself" seem pretty straightforward. I was more thinking about these straightforward messages than the obscure ones tainted with more or less pathetic interpretations depending on which fan club you listen to.
Nobody is perfect (again, my opinion!) so basically let's not say "my interpretation is better than yours" and agree to follow only the parts that are easily understandable.
I don't have any faith in any fan clubs (not talking music here!) as every single one is biaised to have me believe some stupid thing.
edit : Hey, it wasn't my idea!
whose ever idea it was, i'm still saved.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It sounds like you and I are on common ground... if I'm understanding where you are coming from. We don't buy into the interpretation of the Bible according to the Church or the preacher. And that no one interpretation is better than another... faith is personal and you should express it in your own way... by living your life to those guidelines, instead of trying to make others adhere to your beliefs. Am I far offf base with this?
And I, for one, make my own interpretations based upon what is written (because it is pretty much all we can go by... revised or ommited if applicable) and my own life experiences. And yeah... you come away with the basic, 'Love Thy Neighbor' and 'Do Unto Others' things. I'm not worrying about having others believe in anything I say or do. It's my gig, just like yours is yours... neither is right or wrong because the truth is... neither of us knows for sure. I don't follow... nor do I lead. This in my journey.
And, yeah... no one can be like Jesus... but, we can at least, follow His teachings, instead of taking one line He had spoken out of context and mold it to fit our needs. I can't stop people from doing this... and it's not up to me to do so... I just don't think that is doing Him justice.
But, that's just me... so, i don't do that.
Hail, Hail!!!
Anyway....the original posters question is one I've wondered many times. Why did HE get to be savior of the world? Why not one of us? I've been told that he was more righteous in heaven before we came to earth. But how would that happen unless God created him to be that way. So it all comes down to spiritual matter. Jesus was made from higher quality spiritual matter than any of us.
Of course, I don't believe any of that but that's what I concluded, if I were to be illogical enough to even entertain such ideas anymore.
well Jesus, according to the Bible, is God so he would be "higher quality spiritual matter".
heheehe.
According to a book written by men, no less. I guess that puts those women in their place now, doesn't it?
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if you please, me not being a Bible memorizing guy... where in the Bible... Chapter:Verse? I want to read it myself.
Thanx.
Hail, Hail!!!
If all Cats die.....and Socrates died........was Socrates a cat?
I can't believe PP's made me smile. What's the damn world comin' to?
No. He was a philosopher. The only cat that ever qualified as a philosopher was Fat Freddies cat, of The fabulous furry freak brothers fame.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PUQdCk-d8w
John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’
John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”
John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
Colossians 1:13-20
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&version=49
Not at all. Jesus first appeared to women after his resurrection and shepherds were the first to see him after he was born. Both are significant b/c in that era of time both were considered 2nd class citizens. Here's another resource: The second link demonstrates the social injustices that were common practice at that time and why what jesus did truly was radical.
http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/jul1986/v43-2-article4.htm
http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/jesus.htm
I agree that many misinterpret and inject their bias into the teachings. Again, Jesus was not a moralizer or a hellfire & brimstone preacher. This is how he is presented by many and unfortunately this tends to turn people away from his teachings.
Jesus said we must return and become like children (Matt. 18:3) Children are the great artists of life and hold characteristics that adults tend to lose as they grow older. We tend to lose our zest for life because of the deterioration of our mindfulness and the increase of attachments as we 'grow up'. How does one 'seek guidance AS little children' without observing and learning from them?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
baraka, Jesus preached all the time in the Bible. His parables, lessons, etc., come largely from sermons given to large groups of people. And not a moralist? Does this mean He didn't give specific instructions on morality? From telling a woman who was shacking up with a man to "sin no more" to commanding generosity to saying it's a sin to lust in your heart. Jesus's entire message was how to act and be and believe. (In Him)
He also mentions Hell and says people will go there, and the idea of Hell is something many discount today.
Jesus was an ancient Jew, and He must be seen in that context. He's not a "radical" like Che Guevara or anyone else today. He's also not a "family values" conservative, but let's not act like he walked around spouting general, vague spiritual sayings and not condemning anyone/anything.
Can I question the "chosen people" line without being labeled?
i guess we have a difference of opinion on what from little children means. When i hear someone say I am going to learn from them; that means I will seek wisdom from them. I see your point as to learning from them re: actions and observations but your original post seemed more to mean we should ask them about spiritual teachings, which I don't agree with. But from this explanation we are generally talking about the same things.
yes, you inquisitive jack-ass, you can
Perhaps I was not clear in my original post. When I say 'learn from the children', I mean through observance. I think we are on the same page about this.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
ArmsinaV, I have to get off to work, so I respond in more detail later. I will just say that I think (just my opinion) that a lot of the dogma obscure the inner depth & beauty of Jesus's teachings. Also, I will add that in no way was Jesus like Che Guevara, so I agree with you there. I will attempt to explain my view more in depth later.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein