crime rates and hate crime

RavennaSeattle1911RavennaSeattle1911 Posts: 478
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
who does the most hate crime?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    who does the most hate crime?
    So, you started a thread, but you want us to go and do the research for you?

    Nice
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I don't like the term hate crime. I think it should be abolished.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
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  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    know1 wrote:
    I don't like the term hate crime. I think it should be abolished.

    Agreed. The term is politically loaded, and has no real criminal justice value.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    If it is a crime, it is a crime regardless of whether the criminal loves or hates the victim. The notion of a hate crime makes no sense.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr wrote:
    If it is a crime, it is a crime regardless of whether the criminal loves or hates the victim. The notion of a hate crime makes no sense.

    It makes every sense. If the crime wasn't motivated by hate it wouldn't have happened.
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  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    It makes every sense. If the crime wasn't motivated by hate it wouldn't have happened.

    It makes no sense. The movitation is irrelevant. The fact the crime is committed is what is relevant.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr wrote:
    It makes no sense. The movitation is irrelevant. The fact the crime is committed is what is relevant.

    If it's something like murder, perhaps. But what about not giving someone a job? Surely if it's on hate grounds it's a crime, and the fact it's a hate crime makes it a crime? It's not a crime in the 1st place to not give someone a job because there's someone better.
    A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    who does the most hate crime?

    haters
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Chris Rock's Mom
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    If it's something like murder, perhaps. But what about not giving someone a job? Surely if it's on hate grounds it's a crime, and the fact it's a hate crime makes it a crime? It's not a crime in the 1st place to not give someone a job because there's someone better.

    How do we know what the motivation was? Do we have a legal system that can devine intent? If we know he wasn't hired because of skin color, then intent is, once again, irrelevant.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • It makes every sense. If the crime wasn't motivated by hate it wouldn't have happened.

    :eek:

    This is a very dangerous path you're treading. It opens the door to separating a man from his morality.
  • jeffbr wrote:
    How do we know what the motivation was? Do we have a legal system that can devine intent? If we know he wasn't hired because of skin color, then intent is, once again, irrelevant.

    Er if he's caught admitting it?
    A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    who does the most hate crime?
    Hate crime laws are a joke. They evoke a legislated double standard and ensures the unequal treatment of people. Canada has hate crime legislation. Basically if you are hetero and get in a fight with a gay person the hetero person is open to having a hate crime tacked on, but not the gay person. Hate crime is built on the premise that a minority faction cannot be miotivated by hate. It's a joke, political correctness run amok.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    surferdude wrote:
    Hate crime laws are a joke. They evoke a legislated double standard and ensures the unequal treatment of people. Canada has hate crime legislation. Basically if you are hetero and get in a fight with a gay person the hetero person is open to having a hate crime tacked on, but not the gay person. Hate crime is built on the premise that a minority faction cannot be miotivated by hate. It's a joke, political correctness run amok.

    Indeed ... When you think about it, how is "hate" even a provable concept? I mean, in the fight example you used, it may or may not be the case that the hetero man hates gay people. Even in cases where the fight does seem precipitated by homophobia, how can that be proved in a court of law? Its stupid ... You'd have to be able to read someone's mind, unless the gay bashing was completely overt. Assault is assault. There's no need for special categories.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    In Canada it all comes down to whining en masse to the government.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • I think this is being blown way out of all proportion. Even in PC mad England it is very hard for someone to be convicted of a hate crime. The principle is the same as any crime - no sentence for the crime without proof. A few months back some people in the police were dealt with for discriminating against whites for employment. Try writing a letter to someone saying "I'm sorry you haven't got the job because you're a man" for a job which isn't gender relevant. You wouldn't last 5 seconds.
    A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
  • I'm no expert in legal stuff so I've got a question for the people who are:

    1. Girl beat up and laptop stolen.
    2. Girl beat up for no reason.
    3. Girl beat up by boyfriend.
    4. Girl beat up because she was seen holding hands with a girl.

    What kind of crimes are all these? And why would number 4 not be hate crime?

    I'm honestly, seriously interested in your answers :D
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    I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
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  • Assault is assault. There's no need for special categories.
    Exactly! If I'm assaulted, why is my assault so much less than if a minority is assaulted. I wouldn't feel like my assailant 'loved' me... so if he doesn't love me, what's the opposite to love? Hate! ALL crimes are hate crimes.
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  • Exactly! If I'm assaulted, why is my assault so much less than if a minority is assaulted. I wouldn't feel like my assailant 'loved' me... so if he doesn't love me, what's the opposite to love? Hate! ALL crimes are hate crimes.

    The other day, my girlfriend was hit in the face by a bloke who then tried to kiss me. Thankfully, I managed to push him off me. It was obvious he only did it because we were together :(

    Whereas I agree that all crime should be punished equally, I don't mind them being labelled differently. A different label would enable a government to be aware of how many crimes of a certain kind have happened in a certain area over a certain amount of time. This would help when trying to stop the trend. If you get my drift :D

    But as I said in my earlier post, I'd like to see what the legal-savvy think as well.
    Like a cloud dropping rain
    I'm discarding all thought
    I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
    I'm like an opening band for the sun
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Riot_Rain wrote:
    I'm no expert in legal stuff so I've got a question for the people who are:

    1. Girl beat up and laptop stolen.
    2. Girl beat up for no reason.
    3. Girl beat up by boyfriend.
    4. Girl beat up because she was seen holding hands with a girl.

    What kind of crimes are all these? And why would number 4 not be hate crime?

    I'm honestly, seriously interested in your answers :D

    I know each are treated differently, but in reality 2,3 & 4 should be considered assault & battery, and 1 should be assault & battery + robbery.

    In reality, #3 would be considered domestic violence, and in many jurisdictions the male would be given mandatory jail time, counselling, etc... on top of the battery charge. #4 would be considered a hate time and additional punishment added to the assault charge.

    The point is, assault should be punished as assault.

    Spin #4 around. What if your girlfriend didn't like the hetero couple's display of affection and ran over and smacked them. She'd likely be charged with battery, but there would be no hate tag tacked on. Why?

    Another spin to #4 - what if 2 women were holding hands and someone ran up and smacked one of them. The victim believes it was because she's gay. In court it comes out that she was wearing a shirt that said "Fuck Mohammed" and the person committing battery was a muslim. Who committed the hate crime? The shirt wearer or the person committing the battery? The person who committed the battery should be punished for the battery, but should the shirt wearer be punished for speech that incited violence, or for a hate crime?

    Let's make sure we punish the actual crimes committed rather than trying to devine what may or may not have been the motivation by the perpetrator of the crime.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • I think this is being blown way out of all proportion. Even in PC mad England it is very hard for someone to be convicted of a hate crime. The principle is the same as any crime - no sentence for the crime without proof. A few months back some people in the police were dealt with for discriminating against whites for employment. Try writing a letter to someone saying "I'm sorry you haven't got the job because you're a man" for a job which isn't gender relevant. You wouldn't last 5 seconds.

    ................................................
    A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    A few months back some people in the police were dealt with for discriminating against whites for employment.

    What happened, exactly? Curious ... I'd be shocked if these laws actually did anything to protect the rights of a majority group.
  • We have hate crime laws for the same reason we make convicted child molesters register as sex offenders to let everyone in their community know they're a child molester: these kinds of crimes can potentially affect a community more than most other crimes. If you have a community where 30% of the people are little kids and you have a child molester running around, that's a huge concern. If you have 1 guy who stole a computer from someone, that's not a huge concern for the community. Everyone accepts that there will be theft, and we take precautions to prevent it. But one computer stolen isn't going to send a community into upheval like a child molester moving in or a person willing to hurt others based on race, gender, religion, etc. might.

    Hate crimes ARE different, regardless of how similar you can make them look to other crimes on a case-by-case basis. These laws have nothing to do with being PC.

    And to answer the original question: racists commit the most hate crimes.

    http://hate-crime.website-works.com/hate-students.htm#STATS

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004885.html
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Saturnal wrote:
    Hate crimes ARE different, regardless of how similar you can make them look to other crimes on a case-by-case basis. These laws have nothing to do with being PC.
    The second that the punishment for a "hate" crime is more severe than the same "non-hate" crime you've given special status to one victim. That is flat out wrong.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Saturnal wrote:
    We have hate crime laws for the same reason we make convicted child molesters register as sex offenders to let everyone in their community know they're a child molester: these kinds of crimes can potentially affect a community more than most other crimes. If you have a community where 30% of the people are little kids and you have a child molester running around, that's a huge concern. If you have 1 guy who stole a computer from someone, that's not a huge concern for the community. Everyone accepts that there will be theft, and we take precautions to prevent it. But one computer stolen isn't going to send a community into upheval like a child molester moving in or a person willing to hurt others based on race, gender, religion, etc. might.

    Hate crimes ARE different, regardless of how similar you can make them look to other crimes on a case-by-case basis. These laws have nothing to do with being PC.

    And to answer the original question: racists commit the most hate crimes.

    http://hate-crime.website-works.com/hate-students.htm#STATS

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004885.html

    I don't know ... You raise some good points, but one could also argue that ALL crimes affect specific communities, not just individuals. If there are people being assaulted in my neighborhood for ANY reason, there's a major problem. People in the entire neighborhood are going to be concerned, not just members of one group. Let's say someone firebombs a mosque or a synagogue in my neighborhood. Maybe not everyone things like I do, but I think that would bother me a lot, and I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. Arson is bad no matter who is targeted ... The perpetrators should be hit with the book, but I'm not sure why they should get it worse due to a specific ideological motivation to commit the crime.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    surferdude wrote:
    The second that the punishment for a "hate" crime is more severe than the same "non-hate" crime you've given special status to one victim. That is flat out wrong.

    Exactly. And there's still that nagging problem of conjuring or determining hate's influence. In the links provided there are a number of indicators of possible hate that may have influenced the perpatrator. Pretty thin ice for building legal theories.

    Since we're now linking to other material, here's an article that puts forth some additional reasons to oppose hate crimes, and highlights some of the dangers we face by embracing the notion of hate crimes:
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff95.html
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    know1 wrote:
    I don't like the term hate crime. I think it should be abolished.

    I agree. It's criminalizing a thought. A dispicable thought, but criminalizing a throught nonetheless.

    I remember during one of the presidential debates, Kerry referenced the gay gentleman in Texas, who was tortured & killed by being dragged behind a vehicle, and then asked Bush why there wasn't any "hate crime" laws in Texas. Bush then responded that the killers were put to death. That was pretty much the end of that little discussion point.

    I'm against the death penalty, but that is an example that shows that the enforced laws on the books eliminate any need for any additional "hate crime" penalties. They're merely political so that folks in office who support them can say "Look how I'm against hate crimes!"
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  • surferdude wrote:
    The second that the punishment for a "hate" crime is more severe than the same "non-hate" crime you've given special status to one victim. That is flat out wrong.

    Hate crime laws don't give special status to the victim, they give special status to the criminal.
  • I don't know ... You raise some good points, but one could also argue that ALL crimes affect specific communities, not just individuals. If there are people being assaulted in my neighborhood for ANY reason, there's a major problem. People in the entire neighborhood are going to be concerned, not just members of one group. Let's say someone firebombs a mosque or a synagogue in my neighborhood. Maybe not everyone things like I do, but I think that would bother me a lot, and I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. Arson is bad no matter who is targeted ... The perpetrators should be hit with the book, but I'm not sure why they should get it worse due to a specific ideological motivation to commit the crime.

    Again, it's different if someone firebombs a Mosque as opposed to a restaurant or something. Both crimes are similar, but one is way more likely to cause a larger violent backlash from a large portion of the community (in this case it'd be the Muslim community). I know it "shouldn't be that way" but it is. That's reality.

    Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live everyone basically accepts the fact that there will always be some theft, domestic violence, and random assaults. When we read about these incidents in the paper, it doesn't generate an angry lynch mob like a hate crime can. Again, that's why sex offenders are made to publically register with their town, and it's why we have hate crime laws. There are larger issues at stake when it comes to specific crimes that are a sub-type of another.
  • What happened, exactly? Curious ... I'd be shocked if these laws actually did anything to protect the rights of a majority group.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4806430.stm
    A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
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