Entitlements

barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
edited August 2007 in A Moving Train
To what are we entitled and why?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin

Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I'm on the outside, I'm looking in.

    Nothing.

    With these eyes I see... equality.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm on the outside, I'm looking in.

    Nothing.

    With these eyes I see... equality.

    I probably was not clear with my question. What do folks here consider entitlements verses privileges as it pertains to issues such as education, welfare, health care, etc.............?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Well, I think we are entitled to equality. A privledge would be special treatment, would it not?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm on the outside, I'm looking in.

    Nothing.

    With these eyes I see... equality.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6EXUmGo0M
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560

    I love The Guess Who

    She's come undone
    Hand-me-down world
    etc.. etc..
    so many classics.

    I think we are all entitled to like The Guess Who.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • We are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Government welfare accomplishes none of these things and ALWAYS detracts from them.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I think we are entitled to equality.

    Equality as it pertains to what? Can you expound?


    Ahnimus wrote:
    A privledge would be special treatment, would it not?

    There is a big difference between a right and a privilege. A privilege is something like being given a driver's license after you demonstrate you are safe to handle a motor vehicle, a right is something like not being thrown in prison for the rest of your life when you've done nothing wrong.

    So, are things like health care, education, etc, considered an entitlement (right) or a privilege?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Equality as it pertains to what? Can you expound?





    There is a big difference between a right and a privilege. A privilege is something like being given a driver's license after you demonstrate you are safe to handle a motor vehicle, a right is something like not being thrown in prison for the rest of your life when you've done nothing wrong.

    So, are things like health care, education, etc, considered an entitlement (right) or a privilege?

    I would consider them an entitlement. If we are going to provide such programs through a collective, such as tax-payers, then all should be entitled to them. Of course you could argue that they should be a privledge of paying taxes, but we generally accept that some human machines are not capable of earning a wage in our current economic system.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I don't think we're entitled to anything.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    know1 wrote:
    I don't think we're entitled to anything.

    Nothing? So you feel things like health care and education are privileges?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    baraka wrote:
    Nothing? So you feel things like health care and education are privileges?


    priviledges of what? Not being an entitlement doesn't mean it's automatically a priviledge or does it?
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    priviledges of what? Not being an entitlement doesn't mean it's automatically a priviledge.

    I'm not sure I understand your question, 'privileges of what?'. To consider something a privilege is to say it is acceptable for some people to be denied access to them. If it is not a right or entitlement, then what is it?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    baraka wrote:
    I'm not sure I understand your question, 'privileges of what?'. To consider something a privilege is to say it is acceptable for some people to be denied access to them. If it is not a right or entitlement, then what is it?


    I guess I just mean that even public goods are paid for, to be admitted or access them you would still have to theoretically pay into the system somewhere wouldn't you?
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Definitions of entitlement, rights & privilege from: http://www.wordreference.com/


    Entitlement:

    right granted by law or contract (especially a right to benefits); "entitlements make up the major part of the federal budget"

    The definition of a right:

    1 an abstract idea of that which is due to a person or governmental body by law or tradition or nature; "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"; "Certain rights can never be granted to the government but must be kept in the hands of the people"- Eleanor Roosevelt; "a right is not something that somebody gives you; it is something that nobody can take away"

    Compared to............

    Privilege:

    a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all.
    a right reserved exclusively by a particular person or group (especially a hereditary or official right); "suffrage was the prerogative of white adult males"
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    I guess I just mean that even public goods are paid for, to be admitted or access them you would still have to theoretically pay into the system somewhere wouldn't you?

    Do you mean public goods as in water, electricity, etc, or do you mean something else? When you say 'pay into the system' do you mean via taxes?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    baraka wrote:
    To what are we entitled and why?

    I have such a good comeback for this.

    'cept you're married.


    Seriously...

    Food and shelter doesn't seem like such a far-flung idea in this day and age. Health care. Access to education.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I think we're entitled to a transparent government.

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  • I think the U.S. has a grotesque sense of entitlement. As does the West in general.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I think the U.S. has a grotesque sense of entitlement. As does the West in general.

    The US population in general? I disagree. We're some hard working mofo's. We're also slaves. We just refuse to acknowledge it.

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  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    I think the U.S. has a grotesque sense of entitlement. As does the West in general.

    Why? Because most of us work for a living?
  • gue_barium wrote:
    The US population in general? I disagree. We're some hard working mofo's. We're also slaves. We just refuse to acknowledge it.

    I think there's a certain group of people in the U.S., be they politicians, media people, political pundits or other luminaries, who have shown through their words or deeds, an outrageous sense of entitlement. When I refer to entitlement, I'm talking about the liberties taken by the U.S. around the world. Believe me, some of the things being said by these people are not being said in places like Canada or Australia or other major democracies. Ever.

    Surprisingly, these people have popular support for some of the things they say. So if that means the "U.S. population in general", then yes, I would have to say Americans are more likely than people/politicians from most other countries to say or support such crap.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I think there's a certain group of people in the U.S., be they politicians, media people, political pundits or other luminaries, who have shown through their words or deeds, an outrageous sense of entitlement. When I refer to entitlement, I'm talking about the liberties taken by the U.S. around the world. Believe me, some of the things being said by these people are not being said in places like Canada or Australia or other major democracies. Ever.

    Surprisingly, these people have popular support for some of the things they say. So if that means the "U.S. population in general", then yes, I would have to say Americans are more likely than people/politicians from most other countries to say or support such crap.

    Americans don't generally support "such crap" unless they're lead to believe their safety is an issue. And then, they're not supporting the "such crap', they're supporting their self-defense.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium wrote:
    Americans don't generally support "such crap" unless they're lead to believe their safety is an issue. And then, they're not supporting the "such crap', they're supporting their self-defense.

    Dude, you'd have to live outside the U.S. for context and some idea of what I'm referring to. Or, at least that would help. Lets go back 40 years when Cdn. Prime Minister Lester B. pearson met LBJ. The president took it for granted that Canada would just accept American missile installations on Cdn. soil. But pearson didn't, and publicly said so. When Pearson met LBJ in Texas, the prez grabbed him and supposedly said " don't come here and piss on my carpet". Nice diplomacy, huh ? So much for the decisions of a sovereign nation.

    LBJ went on to Vietnam infamy, while Pearson went on to win the Nobel peace prize.

    Fast forward 40 years where Pat Buchanan gets on Cdn. TV and states that Canada had better allow American installations for space missiles. In fact, he said, "its already been decided upon in Washington". That was news to Canadians. And Pat Buchanan has always been one of the more true Conservatives - esp. as it relates to America's foreign involvement !

    Enter the whole Iraq issue and canada's non-involvement there. This lead blowhards like Bill O'Reilly to start threats vis-a-vis economic repercussions. "Canada is getting close to some real pain" (if it doesn't smarten up and join in the war). Canada never joined.

    But this is trivial shit compared to the weekly drivel coming from Americans about the Middle East. If you're Trent Lott or Tom Tancredo or Donald Rumsfeld or John Ashcroft or one of the many other Americans who constantly make ridiculous statements, apparently its OK to go apeshit on the Middle East. The lastest reprise of "draining the swamp" refers to clearing out the middle east, and not just some of it. When Rumsfeld said, "Go massive, sweep it all up...things related or not", he wasn't fucking kidding. But this is the american mentality - that it is ENTITLED - that it has some god-given right - to do whatver it wants around the world. Fuck the collateral damage, and fuck the dissenters, b/c they don't matter. Fuck the 10 million who marched around the world in Feb./2003 in the biggest protests EVER in history. LBJ didn't give a fuck, and neither does GWB. Its arrogance and a perverse, obscene sense entitlement, pure and simple.

    I could literally find some asinine statement coming from the U.S. on this topic EVERY WEEK. It'll be something along the line of Trent Lott's "If we have to, we just mow the whole place down, see what happens."

    Now, tell me why tens of millions of Americans vote in favour of shit like this - not just once, but again and again ???
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Does "entitled" mean "take through force or coersion?" As far as I can tell that's what were talking about.

    Nobody is entitled to anything of mine. I'm not entitled to anything of anyone else's. I'm happy to give. And graciously accept gifts. But theft is theft, even with a government mandate.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Dude, you'd have to live outside the U.S. for context and some idea of what I'm referring to. Or, at least that would help. Lets go back 40 years when Cdn. Prime Minister Lester B. pearson met LBJ. The president took it for granted that Canada would just accept American missile installations on Cdn. soil. But pearson didn't, and publicly said so. When Pearson met LBJ in Texas, the prez grabbed him and supposedly said " don't come here and piss on my carpet". Nice diplomacy, huh ? So much for the decisions of a sovereign nation.

    LBJ went on to Vietnam infamy, while Pearson went on to win the Nobel peace prize.

    Fast forward 40 years where Pat Buchanan gets on Cdn. TV and states that Canada had better allow American installations for space missiles. In fact, he said, "its already been decided upon in Washington". That was news to Canadians. And Pat Buchanan has always been one of the more true Conservatives - esp. as it relates to America's foreign involvement !

    Enter the whole Iraq issue and canada's non-involvement there. This lead blowhards like Bill O'Reilly to start threats vis-a-vis economic repercussions. "Canada is getting close to some real pain" (if it doesn't smarten up and join in the war). Canada never joined.

    But this is trivial shit compared to the weekly drivel coming from Americans about the Middle East. If you're Trent Lott or Tom Tancredo or Donald Rumsfeld or John Ashcroft or one of the many other Americans who constantly make ridiculous statements, apparently its OK to go apeshit on the Middle East. The lastest reprise of "draining the swamp" refers to clearing out the middle east, and not just some of it. When Rumsfeld said, "Go massive, sweep it all up...things related or not", he wasn't fucking kidding. But this is the american mentality - that it is ENTITLED - that it has some god-given right - to do whatver it wants around the world. Fuck the collateral damage, and fuck the dissenters, b/c they don't matter. Fuck the 10 million who marched around the world in Feb./2003 in the biggest protests EVER in history. LBJ didn't give a fuck, and neither does GWB. Its arrogance and a perverse, obscene sense entitlement, pure and simple.

    I could literally find some asinine statement coming from the U.S. on this topic EVERY WEEK. It'll be something along the line of Trent Lott's "If we have to, we just mow the whole place down, see what happens."

    Now, tell me why tens of millions of Americans vote in favour of shit like this - not just once, but again and again ???

    Because they are kept in the dark. They don't see these behind the scenes things. They don't know the real reasons until it's already happened.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    Because they are kept in the dark. They don't see these behind the scenes things. They don't know the real reasons until it's already happened.

    No, *YOU* are in the dark. I'm done with this discussion. Might I suggest:

    http://dsmivtr.org/
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    No, *YOU* are in the dark. I'm done with this discussion. Might I suggest:

    http://dsmivtr.org/

    Hey, hate the American people all you want. I don't have to love you either.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    baraka wrote:
    To what are we entitled and why?

    as was said earlier, life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. It seems that we as americans sometimes forget about that qualifier of happiness. An entitlement implies something for nothing; which I don't agree with. There are things that would be nice to have (health care, a house, white picket fence, 2.4 kids (you get the drift)) but why should those be entitlements?
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    chopitdown wrote:
    as was said earlier, life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. It seems that we as americans sometimes forget about that qualifier of happiness. An entitlement implies something for nothing; which I don't agree with. There are things that would be nice to have (health care, a house, white picket fence, 2.4 kids (you get the drift)) but why should those be entitlements?

    Because we are required to participate in a system that requires our participation. That being the case, there needs to be a balance in that system that does allow equality under the law.

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  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    baraka wrote:
    Nothing? So you feel things like health care and education are privileges?

    I feel everything is a privilege.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
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