Guantanamo Is A Joke, And A Metaphor For America's Foreign Policy

polaris

Cosmo wrote:

I don't know how anyone can condone Guantanamo Bay... sure, information and all that stuff... but, at what cost? Gulags, Stalags, Concentration Camps and torture are for Soviet Commies, Nazis and Viet Cong jungle traps. We're supposed to be the GOOD Guys... not follow the Hitler/Stalin model. I WANT to be the good guys.

the world NEEDS you to be the good guys!

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

what price freedom?

you are aware of what happened to japanese americans during WWII, right?

i dont want to be just good, i want to be right. i want a clear conscience.

...
That's my point. We're not supposed to repeat the errors of Manzinar. We parade around like we're the Sheriff in the White hat on the White horse, but, places like Manzinar, Abu Ghriab and Guantanamo put us in the same category of the 'evils' we label others such as Hitler, Stalin and Hussein. If we're the GOOD Guys... lets BE Good Guys... not just walk around saying we're are.

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
That's my point. We're not supposed to repeat the errors of Manzinar. We parade around like we're the Sheriff in the White hat on the White horse, but, places like Manzinar, Abu Ghriab and Guantanamo put us in the same category of the 'evils' we label others such as Hitler, Stalin and Hussein. If we're the GOOD Guys... lets BE Good Guys... not just walk around saying we're are.

We don't behead prisoners, nor murder them in cold blood. I'd say we're less the "bad guys" as we are the guys trying to do good, but realize sometimes you've got to get dirty before you can clean up.

RainDog

PaperPlates wrote:

We don't behead prisoners, nor murder them in cold blood. I'd say we're less the "bad guys" as we are the guys trying to do good, but realize sometimes you've got to get dirty before you can clean up.

Nothing like a little state sanctioned prison rape before doing a little mop-up, huh? I know that every time I need to clean my bathroom, I go out and beat a few children first just to loosen up.

polaris

PaperPlates wrote:

We don't behead prisoners, nor murder them in cold blood. I'd say we're less the "bad guys" as we are the guys trying to do good, but realize sometimes you've got to get dirty before you can clean up.

your choice:

one beheading after say 2 weeks of uncertainty or say 4 years in a prison without being charged where 22 of your 24 hrs a day are spent in solitary confinement ...

i know which one i would pick ...

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

We don't behead prisoners, nor murder them in cold blood. I'd say we're less the "bad guys" as we are the guys trying to do good, but realize sometimes you've got to get dirty before you can clean up.

...
We are SUPPOSED to be Good Guys... we are NOT supposed to have Gulags.
what you are saying is that it was okay for the Viet Cong to torture American pilots in order to extract flight path information and transponder codes from them. I say is was not and we should NOT follow the Soviet Union/Viet Cong model.

Byrnzie

Cosmo wrote:

...
We are SUPPOSED to be Good Guys... we are NOT supposed to have Gulags.
what you are saying is that it was okay for the Viet Cong to torture American pilots in order to extract flight path information and transponder codes from them. I say is was not and we should NOT follow the Soviet Union/Viet Cong model.

Let's not kid ourselves that U.S troops didn't torture Vietnamese prisoners, or even murder them. You make it sound like Americans were all white knights in Nam, adhering to the Geneva convention. I suggest you look into the subject a bit harder.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

...
We are SUPPOSED to be Good Guys... we are NOT supposed to have Gulags.
what you are saying is that it was okay for the Viet Cong to torture American pilots in order to extract flight path information and transponder codes from them. I say is was not and we should NOT follow the Soviet Union/Viet Cong model.

too late lady macbeth, the blood is already on the US's hands.

Cosmo

Byrnzie wrote:

Let's not kid ourselves that U.S troops didn't torture Vietnamese prisoners, or even murder them. You make it sound like Americans were all white knights in Nam, adhering to the Geneva convention. I suggest you look into the subject a bit harder.

...
I never stated that. The Viet Nam War was was a fiasco... just like Iraq.
The point I'm making is that we parade around and spout crap like 'Liberty' and 'Freedom' and 'Democracy'... then, ACT like barbarians and savages. If America claims to be the Good Guys... then, we should quit acting like Bad Guys or shut the fuck up about being Good Guys. Being 'Not as Evil' as the ones who behead people still makes us evil.
...
And please note... I participated in the last Selective Service Draft Lottery in 1972 (well within our withdrawal, but still 2 years prior to our pull out) There was still a lot of uncertainty about Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos and that entire region in 1972 as far as U.S. involvement was concerned. I was paying close attention to what was going on in Viet Nam because it was the guys in the classes in front of me that were getting shipped off to that place. I don't need to 'Research' more.

Byrnzie

Cosmo wrote:

...
I never stated that. The Viet Nam War was was a fiasco... just like Iraq.
The point I'm making is that we parade around and spout crap like 'Liberty' and 'Freedom' and 'Democracy'... then, ACT like barbarians and savages. If America claims to be the Good Guys... then, we should quit acting like Bad Guys or shut the fuck up about being Good Guys. Being 'Not as Evil' as the ones who behead people still makes us evil.
...
And please note... I participated in the last Selective Service Draft Lottery in 1972 (well within our withdrawal, but still 2 years prior to our pull out) There was still a lot of uncertainty about Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos and that entire region in 1972 as far as U.S. involvement was concerned. I was paying close attention to what was going on in Viet Nam because it was the guys in the classes in front of me that were getting shipped off to that place. I don't need to 'Research' more.

For some reason I had an image in my head of you being in your 20's. And I've always said that presumptuousness is one of the biggest evils.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

too late lady macbeth, the blood is already on the US's hands.

...
I'm not denying anything. I accept the fact that we are not the Good Guys we claim to be. We cry about 'September 11th' as justification to stop to the level of the former Soviet's and Nazis with our, 'Ve haf vays uf making you tolk'. I find it a grave disservice and dishonor to use the deaths of those people as an excuse to act like the ones we dispise so greatly.
I truely wish we were a benevolent Super Power that provided a shining model to lead other... instead of force feeding them our form of living from the business end of a bayonette.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

...
I'm not denying anything. I accept the fact that we are not the Good Guys we claim to be. We cry about 'September 11th' as justification to stop to the level of the former Soviet's and Nazis with our, 'Ve haf vays uf making you tolk'. I find it a grave disservice and dishonor to use the deaths of those people as an excuse to act like the ones we dispise so greatly.
I truely wish we were a benevolent Super Power that provided a shining model to lead other... instead of force feeding them our form of living from the business end of a bayonette.

i didnt say you were in denial.
and i still cant get bush saying, 'we are a peaceful nation' out of my head. and him wondering out loud why would anyone want to attack the US. i hoped that 9/11 would give the US a chance to show what could be accomplished with a little restraint. that they wouldn't go off the deep end and use it as an excuse to destroy another country. i was wrong on both counts but sadly not at all surprised.

Cosmo

Byrnzie wrote:

For some reason I had an image in my head of you being in your 20's. And I've always said that presumptuousness is one of the biggest evils.

...
No... I've been around.
I know what it was like as 18 approached and I saw guys I played Little League with get swept up and sent to Viet Nam. It was fucking scary going to the Selective Service and passing the physical and getting a Draft Card assigned to me... then, waiting for the fucking lottery. My family was blue collar and couldn't pay for college. If I was in the lower half... I was going in.
as luck would have it... my birthday came up as number 316.
The guys I knew that got drafted didn't go to Viet Nam... but, in 1972... no one knew is war was going to break out in Cambodia or Nicaragua. Looking back... yeah... we were never at risk. But, go back to 1972 and tell us that. We'd say you were crazy or on LSD.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

i didnt say you were in denial.
and i still cant get bush saying, 'we are a peaceful mantion' out of my head. and him wondering out loud why would anyone want to attack the US. i hoped that 9/11 would give the US a chance to show what could be accomplished with a little restraint. that they wouldn't go off the deep end and use it as an excuse to destroy another country. i was wrong on both counts but sadly not at all surprised.

...
Trust me... you will have to look long and wide to find someone who is more proud of being American or more of a patriot than myself. And do not mistake patriotism with guns or militarism... patriotism is based upon principles and character, not muzzle velocity and caliber. I am pained at what has happened to my country by this President and his ring of minions.
We had a golden... once in a lifetime opportunity to really lead the world after what happened on September 11th, 2001. The world was on our side. Even people who thought we were assholes said, "Yeah... you guys can be assholes... but, no one deserves that". We could have lead the countries that are sick of a small group of religious fanatics holding the rest of us hostage by using fear. As a 'Christian Nation'... why couldn't we have taken a lesson from Jesus and let them strike us and ask them, Why? I believe we could have and should have done a complete restoration of Afghanistan and helped them build a country of THEIR choosing, not ours. We could have lead the other nations of the world to figure out how to end terrorism... on every continent.
Instead... what do we do? We do stupid shit and use fear that makes people who were on our side prior to September 11th, 2001 say, "Wow. You guys ARE arrogant assholes... maybe you DID deserve that shit".
...
So, yeah... I think we blew it. It makes me sick. I love America and I love being American. And let it be known... you can love America and hate what she is doing. I just wish that America would do as she claims to be. Not just use it as a masque to hide her evil intentions.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Guantanamo is what Bush's calls his cock

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

...
So, yeah... I think we blew it. It makes me sick. I love America and I love being American. And let it be known... you can love America and hate what she is doing. I just wish that America would do as she claims to be. Not just use it as a masque to hide her evil intentions.

i totally understand. there are many of us on this board from countries other than the US who are deeply pained by what our governments are doing in our so called name for the so called greater good(whatever the hell that is).
i do not see the US has some big evil. i see her as just terribly misguided. i see her as having the chance to do so much good and blowing it big time.

and i know some americans are gonna say 'well why does it have to be us that does it all the time. why does everyone turn to the US all the time?' and to them i say read some history and you will see why. and how it all came about. it is not that we turn instinctly towards washington, it's more that washington has taken the reigns and wont slacken them.
and quite frankly if you do know your history and still see the US as the eternal good guys then you're a fool.(general statement not aimed at any individual)

Cosmo

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Guantanamo is what Bush's calls his cock

...
If I believed in Heaven and Hell... I'd believe that George Walker Bush would end up in a lake of fire with a 12 volt car battery wired to his testicles for the next several eternities.
Why? Well, because I would believe that there is no way you are getting into Heaven with that much blood on your hands... no matter how much forgiveness you ask for... then, grant to yourself.
...
I guess it's a good thing for President Bush that I don't believe in Heaven or Hell.

Truthmonger

catefrances wrote:

i totally understand. there are many of us on this board from countries other than the US who are deeply pained by what our governments are doing in our so called name for the so called greater good(whatever the hell that is).
i do not see the US has some big evil. i see her as just terribly misguided. i see her as having the chance to do so much good and blowing it big time.

and i know some americans are gonna say 'well why does it have to be us that does it all the time. why does everyone turn to the US all the time?' and to them i say read some history and you will see why. and how it all came about. it is not that we turn instinctly towards washington, it's more that washington has taken the reigns and wont slacken them.
and quite frankly if you do know your history and still see the US as the eternal good guys then you're a fool.(general statement not aimed at any individual)

To all the people out there who think Bush/America doesn't have a clue, I have only one word to say: dignitude.

Byrnzie

Truthmonger wrote:

To all the people out there who think Bush/America doesn't have a clue, I have only one word to say: dignitude.

My faith is restored!

catefrances

Truthmonger wrote:

To all the people out there who think Bush/America doesn't have a clue, I have only one word to say: dignitude.

ive never said the bush administration didn't know what it was doing. they know exactly what it is they're doing. they just have no regard for the blood that is being shed or the lives being lost. it's just collateral damage afterall.