Show me where it says otherwise. All of these studies never address that because it doesn't work in their favor as I was saying.
I can't prove a negative. I asked you to tell me how you know the healthcare system is crappier than in the US. I can't show you it's not worse. (edit: though this says a little)
I guess you're just bored and posting whatever you feel like saying without really putting much thought to it.
What I meant it that if people really want so bad to pay a shitload of $ for their healthcare they can always go get treated in the us.
thats not my problem. I work hard. and in doing so I can afford to give myself access to the best healthcare in the world. I do not want in handed to me for free thus lowering my quality of care.
I don't believe this, I don't think 'free' healthcare necessarily means a lesser quality of care.
Same goes for healthcare. It mentions the lives that could've been saved with free, timely healthcare. But, how about the lives that have been saved with better quality free-market healthcare as compared to the crappy shitty communist healthcare? Where's that study? Wasn't on the anti-capitalist-propagandist drawing board? Too bad I guess.
Man, you're becoming or you are a self centered/selfish prick. What you can't think or feel for someone else other than yourself.
Oh I get it as long as I have mine, how you get your health care matters none to me.
Peace
I have to agree with you here, i've never seen such a selfish naive reply from anyone else on this board.
Jlew you pretty much showed your true colours there.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Do people really not see how others having access to healthcare is beneficial to them. I mean it seems logical to me that if people can go see a doctor without having to worry if they have enough money to pay for it, people are going to get treated for diseases a lot sooner. Which means less chances of people walking around on the street, or in the elevator with me having untreated infectious diseases (like TB or the Plague or something). Or if I am driving down the road there is less chance that the guy in front of me is going to have a fatal heart attack and cause a massive car wreck, because the day before when he had chest pains he actually went to the doctor instead of staying home because he didn’t want to worry about spending money he didn’t have something that might have just been indigestion.
Even on a more basic route, they always say that when people have a disease if they get treatment early their survival rate goes way up and they require less medical resources. Now if people can’t go to the doctor when they have symptoms, because they can not afford it, it means it is more likely that they are not going to go until their disease gets serious before they seek help. If that is the case it could mean more hospital time and taking up a hospital bed and many more resources that they wouldn’t have needed if it was easier to see a doctor earlier. And even from a selfish person’s point of view, a person taking up space at a hospital might be taking up a bed and the time of a doctor that a selfish person, who has insurance, might need. I mean even if someone only cares for themself, I have just given multiple examples of how other people having access to healthcare is beneficial to you.
I think the united states has close to the best healthcare and doctors. its just not affordable for some.
The game that insurance companies play with hospitals and doctors is sooooo corrupt it makes me sick. When insurance won't pay for one thing, the hospitals and doctors are forced to charge more for other things....and it changes all the time, making the costs out of control. It's a game to the insurance companies.
Do people really not see how others having access to healthcare is beneficial to them. I mean it seems logical to me that if people can go see a doctor without having to worry if they have enough money to pay for it, people are going to get treated for diseases a lot sooner. Which means less chances of people walking around on the street, or in the elevator with me having untreated infectious diseases (like TB or the Plague or something). Or if I am driving down the road there is less chance that the guy in front of me is going to have a fatal heart attack and cause a massive car wreck, because the day before when he had chest pains he actually went to the doctor instead of staying home because he didn’t want to worry about spending money he didn’t have something that might have just been indigestion.
Even on a more basic route, they always say that when people have a disease if they get treatment early their survival rate goes way up and they require less medical resources. Now if people can’t go to the doctor when they have symptoms, because they can not afford it, it means it is more likely that they are not going to go until their disease gets serious before they seek help. If that is the case it could mean more hospital time and taking up a hospital bed and many more resources that they wouldn’t have needed if it was easier to see a doctor earlier. And even from a selfish person’s point of view, a person taking up space at a hospital might be taking up a bed and the time of a doctor that a selfish person, who has insurance, might need. I mean even if someone only cares for themself, I have just given multiple examples of how other people having access to healthcare is beneficial to you.
I truly believe most people in this country "get it" when it comes to how we are all so screwed with the condition of the current US health care system. They just feel helpless and don't know how it can be fixed.
Definitively, there is far too much corruption in the US healthcare system. It's multifacited, from the drug marketers, to doctors overperscribing medication, to bad government regulations payments and generally decisions made by politicians instead of doctors. Everyone is in everyones pocket and it hurts all of us.
Nothing in the US healthcare system is logical in the least whether you are "covered" or you aren't.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
But I guess it has to do with the amount of taxes that we pay. If you make 200, 000 $ a year (which a doctor usually makes) you pay 50% in taxes.
The majority of the people between the age of 15-19 makes 7600 $ a year. You don't have to pay any taxes if you earn under 7600$.
I had a part time job last year and earned 20, 000 $ and payed 31% just in taxes.
The moral is, the higher the taxes, the better the health care (with certain exceptions). US is a kaptialstisc country. You have to work hard for youself and only yourself. In Norway you get money if you don't have a job, if your sick etc. (See the video, it reflects a rather correct side of the Norwegian health care system, but not every city is like that of course)l.
It's okay, It's okay
You don't have to run and hide away
It's okay, it's okay
I love you anyway
2007: Pearl Jam concert in Düsseldorf (21. June)
2007: Chris Cornell concert in Kristiansand (2. July)
2007: The Who concert in Kristiansand (4. July)
Definitively, there is far too much corruption in the US healthcare system. It's multifacited, from the drug marketers, to doctors overperscribing medication, to bad government regulations payments and generally decisions made by politicians instead of doctors. Everyone is in everyones pocket and it hurts all of us.
Nothing in the US healthcare system is logical in the least whether you are "covered" or you aren't.
I honestly don't think its the doctors, they system forces them to do corrupt things with Billing and whatnot.
I honestly don't think its the doctors, they system forces them to do corrupt things with Billing and whatnot.
note that the next time you get a prescription you'll be given it written off a pad that says....schering plows newest fad drug prescription here on the leather bound cover. God Forbid you should have to try a few different ones from thier prize closet of samples none of which have generics..... Trust me it's everybody... a payoff here, a scratch your back there. Either way the consumer is getting screwed...whether you get your doctoring dinero from the Government or from the other insurance you're paying for. Whose the last Doctor you saw driving off in a 91 Honda Accord? Yeah it's expensive to go to medical school, but none of them are hurting for dough.
If anything, we could certainly ax the prescription drug marketing nonsense in the US, even if it were only on the TV.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Yeah it's expensive to go to medical school, but none of them are hurting for dough.
have you seen what Doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance. For OB-GYN's is usually well over 50% of what they make. I think doctors should be paid well, if you're smart enough and dedicated enough to do it, you should be rewarded.
have you seen what Doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance. For OB-GYN's is usually well over 50% of what they make. I think doctors should be paid well, if you're smart enough and dedicated enough to do it, you should be rewarded.
exactly. doctors get fucked bad from insurance. I almost feel bad for them.
have you seen what Doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance. For OB-GYN's is usually well over 50% of what they make. I think doctors should be paid well, if you're smart enough and dedicated enough to do it, you should be rewarded.
yes, and I agree it's absurd. Much of that is due to frivalous lawsuits...(I included that in my views of governmental corruption though that really lies with patients and general public attitudes towards lawsuits) I tend to think most suits against doctors are unfounded, but they fuck up too.
I'm not begrudging doctor salary at all I just include them in the corruption umbrella whether it's a work around or not.
Even with all the insurance, all that hurts is the patient because we end up paying more for it, just like all these "taxes on the corporations" everyone keeps talking about.
It's just embedded in the cost of health care. Any dime someone gets in a lawsuit or paid in insurance is simply tacked on to a bill somewhere else.
So basically, like damn near everything else in America.... Lawyers are at the heart of the problem.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
I have to agree with you here, i've never seen such a selfish naive reply from anyone else on this board.
Jlew you pretty much showed your true colours there.
I don't like to call peeps names but that guy truly earned it with that "all about be" comment. He could never run for office cause it appears all he sees is himself twice while looking in the mirror.
Peace
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is to financially support people you are just looking for a hand out.
But couldn't pretty much everything a government provides its citizen be classified as a hand out. I mean one could argue that regular road maintenance is just a hand out to people who are too cheap to Hummers. Or the library is just a hand out for people who are looking for free books. Firefighters are a hand out for people who don't make the choice to live in fire resistant buildings and don't buy fire extinguishers. Recreation centers are totally a handout for people who don't want to sign up for private gyms. As I mentioned earlier schools are a handout for people who don't want to pay for their children's education themselves. I am curious why these "handouts" are ok but the idea of making sure people are have access to doctors so that they can stay healthy is wrong?
But couldn't pretty much everything a government provides its citizen be classified as a hand out. I mean one could argue that regular road maintenance is just a hand out to people who are too cheap to Hummers. Or the library is just a hand out for people who are looking for free books. Firefighters are a hand out for people who don't make the choice to live in fire resistant buildings and don't buy fire extinguishers. Recreation centers are totally a handout for people who don't want to sign up for private gyms. As I mentioned earlier schools are a handout for people who don't want to pay for their children's education themselves. I am curious why these "handouts" are ok but the idea of making sure people are have access to doctors so that they can stay healthy is wrong?
healthcare is more expensive that all those thing you mentioned x10. and with government involvement quality decreases. you mention roads. our infrastructure, namely, bridges suck.
I can't prove a negative. I asked you to tell me how you know the healthcare system is crappier than in the US. I can't show you it's not worse. (edit: though this says a little)
First off, unless you can quote a particular statement from that link and then rehash it in your own words within a context relevent to your argument, then there is no reason why I should believe you even understand what's in that link. Many, many times on the net I run into those who think they've "said it all" by simply posting a link. It's like when cats raise their tails into the air hoping that their opponent will be dissuaded by the appearance of a taller object.
Point in fact is that wealthy and/or important foreigners have historically been coming to the US when they are in dire need of specialized healthcare. Rarely do wealthy and/or important US citizens seek treatment beyond our borders except in the cases where an experimental procedure has been approved on foreign soil, but not domestically.
The fact of the matter is that if foreign subsidized healthcare was superior in quality to free-market healthcare, this argument would have been pushed to the front of the liberal agenda for the implementation of universal health care.
Instead, we only hear about those who receive no treatment at all.
It's a pretty simple matter of looking at what subsidized industry has historically produced. The answer is sub-standard quality of product. Anyone
who understands basic economics knows this to be the truth.
What I meant it that if people really want so bad to pay a shitload of $ for their healthcare they can always go get treated in the us.
If that's what you meant, then you are reinforcing my point because it's no secret that toyotas and hondas are of a higher level of quality than ford festivas.
A close friend of mine has several degenarative diseases/conditions, which have been making her life a living hell; for many years.
It makes it very difficult for her to remain in any kind of productive state of being.
But she continues to try hard to work and support herself. She loses a lot of jobs as a result if her health problems.
Three and a half months ago she got yet another job and ha s been trying really hard to not miss any time from work and stick out her shifts.
Two weeks ago she met her 90 day period before her health insurance kicks in. She was so happy and really looking forward to getting the medical attention and medication she needs to better manage her conditions. Thus live a more stable and productive life. She lived up to her end of the deal, she worked hard and also filled out all of the rquired paperwork.
Today, she got a call from the insurance company telling her that they are reviewing her medical history. They told her if they determine that her conditions are "Pre-existing" conditions; they won't cover any of her medical/prescription needs. That she will have to wait a full year of working there to get the coverage she needs and the insurance payments must continue to come out of her check for the duration of the year.
The health problems she has are genetic, degenerative diseases. Some of her conditions have been plaquing her since she was a child.
She can't get disability because she's always trying to work, support herself and going from job to job. So she makes too much money on a yearly basis.
Yet, she barely makes enough money to support herself and survive. She's always in need of financial help just for the basic needs of life (shelter, food, water...etc). She can't get Social Security assitance for the very same reason.
We all know what the Insurance company will do. If she's capable of sticking out the year at this job; they'll cancel her policy immediately as soon as she reaches her one year mark. Or they'll cover her for a month or two then cancel her policy. But it's more likely they'll lean on the company she works for to fire her; thus collecting the money for one year and ridding themselves of the responsibility of paying for her health care. It's happened to her before.
Even if she stops working all together, the benefits she would receive from disability and Social Security are not even close for her to have a roof over her head and food in her belly. She would be homeless or have to live with family or friends.
So what's she supposed to do in this "great" country of ours, the United States Of America?
At her previous job her boss was denied coverage for the cancer she has. Why you ask? Because the insurance company determined that her cancer existed before she was hired as manager of that company. So that woman (my friend's ex-boss) has to pay for all her cancer treatments, doctor's visits, hospital stays and medication....all out of her own pocket.
It leaves her with no money from her paychecks to contribute to the household or savings. She works to pay for her health care and she continues to week-in, week-out get herself and her husband into further debt. The bills are astronomical and they just keep piling up. They'll never pay them off in their collective life time.
Amazing, isn't it?
That's right, that's our great country......The United States Of America!!
An insurance company leaning on an employer to fire an an employee based on a disability is illegal. It's a sad story, but it's the result of certain people stepping outside the system to avoid doing what's right.
Even if the government took control of health care, those types of injustices would not come to an end. Government has never been anything but totally inefficient and lacking in common sense.
Also, you mention that your friend is denied disability benefits because she "continues to work." Has she tried not working? Upon being fired, she can collect unemployment, during which time she can support her cause to gain disability status.
Point in fact is that wealthy and/or important foreigners have historically been coming to the US when they are in dire need of specialized healthcare. Rarely do wealthy and/or important US citizens seek treatment beyond our borders except in the cases where an experimental procedure has been approved on foreign soil, but not domestically.
That's not proof. That's nothing. Wealthy and/or important foreigners come the UK, Belgium, France, Norway... when they are in dire need of specialized healthcare. Rarely do wealthy and/or important citizens of those countries seek treatment beyond their own countries' borders.
That's just a statement and it doesn't mean a thing. Besides even if it was true, which is definitely debatable, all it proves is that if you are wealthy and important you can get good healthcare in the US. Well, that just about excludes 95% of the world's population.
So yes, I'd rather live in a country where you can get free, or almost free healthcare. And no, it isn't of lesser quality (you haven't showed any proof whatsoever, by the way, that it is). And lesser quality compared to what? Compared to the treatment the wealthy and important can get in the US? Or compared to the regular treatment half of American's population can't get or has to pay huge sums of money in order to get it?
The fact of the matter is that if foreign subsidized healthcare was superior in quality to free-market healthcare, this argument would have been pushed to the front of the liberal agenda for the implementation of universal health care.
Who said it was superior? It's probably equal. The only difference is we pay higher taxes, and everyone gets free (or almost free) healthcare.
Instead, we only hear about those who receive no treatment at all.
Well, fuck those right? I mean they should work hard, who cares if they have cancer, they just have to work a little harder.
Those who receive no treatment are people like you and me. Imagine your wife, your mother, your daughter ... anyone you care about, was seriously sick and they can't pay for healthcare. You'd be happy to live in France or Norway or the UK, and you'd find out that your theory of 'lesser quality' is based on prejudices, not fact.
It's a pretty simple matter of looking at what subsidized industry has historically produced. The answer is sub-standard quality of product. Anyone
who understands basic economics knows this to be the truth.
Total military budget of 2007: $439.3 Billion
Not included in the DoD budget is $23.4 billion to be spent by the Department of Energy to develop and maintain nuclear warheads.
healthcare is more expensive that all those thing you mentioned x10. and with government involvement quality decreases. you mention roads. our infrastructure, namely, bridges suck.
So at what point does something become expensive enough to be labeled a "handout". Because that is what you are saying right, public libraries are not a hand out because they are much cheaper then what public health care would be.
First off, unless you can quote a particular statement from that link and then rehash it in your own words within a context relevent to your argument, then there is no reason why I should believe you even understand what's in that link. Many, many times on the net I run into those who think they've "said it all" by simply posting a link. It's like when cats raise their tails into the air hoping that their opponent will be dissuaded by the appearance of a taller object.
My link was just a basic table, I didn't think it would be so hard to read.
Anyways, if you go here you will see that the US is behind France (among other countries with socialized healthcare) in all health indicators. Not just a few, but all of them, including major ones like infant mortality rates. Having a semi-free (people pay heavy taxes for this) healthcare system does not mean having crappy care.
And if you go back to this link you will see that the US spends more on health per capita than France, and that the total healthcare costs take a larger part of the GDP in the US as well. This basically means you are paying more for a less efficient system.
I understand that you may not want to pay for other people's healthcare but obviously the system in the US is not working right.
My link was just a basic table, I didn't think it would be so hard to read.
Anyways, if you go here you will see that the US is behind France (among other countries with socialized healthcare) in all health indicators. Not just a few, but all of them, including major ones like infant mortality rates. Having a semi-free (people pay heavy taxes for this) healthcare system does not mean having crappy care.
And if you go back to this link you will see that the US spends more on health per capita than France, and that the total healthcare costs take a larger part of the GDP in the US as well. This basically means you are paying more for a less efficient system.
I understand that you may not want to pay for other people's healthcare but obviously the system in the US is not working right.
we are definately paying more for a less efficient system...and we are already paying into medicare/medicaid out of all of our paychecks.
One problem with a complete government paid healthcare system here would be abuse. Abuse that's already here. Americans abuse anything they don't feel they have any ownership in. If its percieved as free, it's a free for all to steal;abuse and otherwise vandalize it. I'm not sure we are responsible enough to take all the preventative steps like excercising and not going to the care facility for cuts and scrapes.... etc to make that kind of system effective either. Clearly it's in disarray and really ineffective and wasteful for most of us.... I just am not sure at all how to fix it yet anyway.
Even if we end up with some kind of umbrella deal where everyone is covered. I think it's imperative everyone who uses it pay something on site or in payment plans and be held accountable for paying for it....otherwise it's just asking to be abused.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
One problem with a complete government paid healthcare system here would be abuse. Abuse that's already here. Americans abuse anything they don't feel they have any ownership in. If its percieved as free, it's a free for all to steal;abuse and otherwise vandalize it. I'm not sure we are responsible enough to take all the preventative steps like excercising and not going to the care facility for cuts and scrapes.... etc to make that kind of system effective either. Clearly it's in disarray and really ineffective and wasteful for most of us.... I just am not sure at all how to fix it yet anyway.
Even if we end up with some kind of umbrella deal where everyone is covered. I think it's imperative everyone who uses it pay something on site or in payment plans and be held accountable for paying for it....otherwise it's just asking to be abused.
Yea there is abuse, I live in Canada so I know a bit about what I am talking about. But I get the feeling that abuse isn't really as bad as people might think it is. Plus it is a trade off too, I mean yea the cases of abuse might go up, but with a universal system someone might also be more inclined to get early treatment for things if they are unsure about, that they might not see a doctor for if it cost them 100’s of dollars and turned out to be nothing. For example a guy might go to the doctor when he notices a funny looking mole on his arm, that may or may not be skin cancer and could easily be treated, rather than waiting until it is too late to do anything because it is too expensive to see a doctor for something that might just be a harmless mole. I would rather that people have access to early treatment (which in the long run would save money) and deal with the abuse cases rather than have the opposite any day.
Yea there is abuse, I live in Canada so I know a bit about what I am talking about. But I get the feeling that abuse isn't really as bad as people might think it is. Plus it is a trade off too, I mean yea the cases of abuse might go up, but with a universal system someone might also be more inclined to get early treatment for things if they are unsure about, that they might not see a doctor for if it cost them 100’s of dollars and turned out to be nothing. For example a guy might go to the doctor when he notices a funny looking mole on his arm, that may or may not be skin cancer and could easily be treated, rather than waiting until it is too late to do anything because it is too expensive to see a doctor for something that might just be a harmless mole. I would rather that people have access to early treatment (which in the long run would save money) and deal with the abuse cases rather than have the opposite any day.
Preventative care is really the key to keeping costs down.
How does the drug plan work in Canada?
Is it like Mexico where you don't need a prescription you just go get what you need?
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Preventative care is really the key to keeping costs down.
How does the drug plan work in Canada?
Is it like Mexico where you don't need a prescription you just go get what you need?
No it is not at all like Mexico you definitely need a prescription. Drugs and other things like vision and dental care aren't really covered but the provincial health plan. With drugs I think the way it works (and correct me if I am wrong since I am in neither of these groups) if you are a senior or if you are really poor then I think after you reach a certain spending limit on drugs then the government starts paying for them (or at least paying a percentage). If you are in a hospital any drugs they give you are covered by the province though. Many of the full time jobs I have had in the past offer supplementary health plans which cover things like drugs, dental, vision and travel medical.
An insurance company leaning on an employer to fire an an employee based on a disability is illegal.
Oh yeah? Try proving it in a court of law or even trying to find a competent attorney to handle the case; without paying out several thousands of dollars. Money she doesn't have. This crap goes on every day and has been going on for a very long time.
It's a sad story, but it's the result of certain people stepping outside the system to avoid doing what's right.
True. And no one is more against welfare/social services fraud than I am.
On the other hand, the wealthy.....the rich.....the corporations ......the politicians often step outside the system, defraud the american public and break the law everyday; to aviod doing what's right or fair. Why should they be immune?
Even if the government took control of health care, those types of injustices would not come to an end. Government has never been anything but totally inefficient and lacking in common sense.
We are the government! We the people are the one's in charge of this country! But many of us have forgotten that little oh so significant fact.
It is us the people of this country who permit the "Government" to be inefficient, corrupted and downright dirty. It works in other countries becuause the citizens of those countries have a hands on active role in monitoring the activities, contributing to the laws and policies and keeping things in check. That's when it works well for some countries.
Only when the citizens hand over responsibility and power to their government, without a diligent and stern demand for accountability; do governments run rough-shot over the citizens. We allow it to be a mess.
It is our own american citizens who exist in a state of pre-occupation with greed, self-absorbtion and mindless distractions that permit these things to occur. It is our own american citizens who allow themselves to be bought-off/paid-off by ruthless corporations; so they look the other way and ignore the corruption, fruad and criminal activities. All so they can have a fancy, "classy" car, a big fancy house and pre-occupy themselves with American Idol and Britney Spears' latest exploits.
Everyone shut off their damn TVs and get invloved. Then you'll see real changes in this country.
Also, you mention that your friend is denied disability benefits because she "continues to work." Has she tried not working? Upon being fired, she can collect unemployment, during which time she can support her cause to gain disability status.
She has been through a few stretches of not being able to work, because of her conditions; over the last 15 years. Not because she didn't want to work, but because she could not.
The Disability she received was pathetic and barely kept her fed. Certainly didn't provide her with enough money to have an apartment or home. She had to live with her mother the first time and with her brother; the second time. But both of those were bad situations for her because they really don't have much money either or the space to have her there. She was living in her bother's upstairs hallway, which opened up a little at the back of the house. They set up a bed for her in the hallway, because they had no spare bedrooms and have three kids. Two of which share one bedroom.
Her mother's house was even worse as she basically lived in her living room and her other younger brother was a major idiot about it.
Furthermore, Medicaid barely covered for anything in the way of prescriptions. She couldn't really get the correct health care (specialist doctors, tests, treatments..etc) and the prescriptions were still so very expensive and out of her reach.
It was her brother, her sister-in-law, myself and a few other close friends who sent her money quite often; just so she could get some of the medicine her general practitioner did prescribe.
But she really needed to be refered to specialists and receive constant treatments; which she had no coverage for or money to pay them. So she could never get any consistent appointments with them. No form of medical coverage, no money= no appointments. The one or two doctors/specialists who did see her, would not do any follow ups or extended treatments; because she couldn't pay the initial office visits.
The poultry money she got from disability was barely enough for food and personal stuff ( personal hygiene products ..etc) and see would struggle just to have one or two meals a day. Nevermind three meals a day.
WIC wouldn't help her and Food Stamps gave her a whopping $12.00 a month.
Everytime she was fired she applied for unemployment. Sometimes she got it, sometimes not. many of the emplyers fought to deny her unemployment on the grounds that she was fired to excessive absentism. Which of course is true and directly a result.......of her health conditions! Unemployment checks are rather small and would only last six months
Disability in every case tried to deny her, dragged their collective feet and basically made her wait three...four months before finally accepting her and sending out checks.
So she struggled for three or four months just to have her basic needs met.
But then she would receive the backchecks (three or four) dated back to the day she filed for disbility. And that would be great for her. She would get some food, put some money towards one or two outstanding doctor's bills or contribute to her mother or brother's household, for their letting her live there.......rent free. But the monthly checks were nothing anyone could live on and she'd be back at square one, again.
Even during those short time frames when she did receive unemployment and Disability; the money wasn't enough for her to have a small apartment, pay her bills and have food. Not to mention health care and medicine. She was always having to make a choise between food, medicine and other basic needs. She couldn't have them all.
No it is not at all like Mexico you definitely need a prescription. Drugs and other things like vision and dental care aren't really covered but the provincial health plan. With drugs I think the way it works (and correct me if I am wrong since I am in neither of these groups) if you are a senior or if you are really poor then I think after you reach a certain spending limit on drugs then the government starts paying for them (or at least paying a percentage). If you are in a hospital any drugs they give you are covered by the province though. Many of the full time jobs I have had in the past offer supplementary health plans which cover things like drugs, dental, vision and travel medical.
is the whole price usually covered, or is there a copay for generic and premium that kind of thing?
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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What I meant it that if people really want so bad to pay a shitload of $ for their healthcare they can always go get treated in the us.
I don't believe this, I don't think 'free' healthcare necessarily means a lesser quality of care.
:rolleyes:
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I have to agree with you here, i've never seen such a selfish naive reply from anyone else on this board.
Jlew you pretty much showed your true colours there.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Even on a more basic route, they always say that when people have a disease if they get treatment early their survival rate goes way up and they require less medical resources. Now if people can’t go to the doctor when they have symptoms, because they can not afford it, it means it is more likely that they are not going to go until their disease gets serious before they seek help. If that is the case it could mean more hospital time and taking up a hospital bed and many more resources that they wouldn’t have needed if it was easier to see a doctor earlier. And even from a selfish person’s point of view, a person taking up space at a hospital might be taking up a bed and the time of a doctor that a selfish person, who has insurance, might need. I mean even if someone only cares for themself, I have just given multiple examples of how other people having access to healthcare is beneficial to you.
The game that insurance companies play with hospitals and doctors is sooooo corrupt it makes me sick. When insurance won't pay for one thing, the hospitals and doctors are forced to charge more for other things....and it changes all the time, making the costs out of control. It's a game to the insurance companies.
I truly believe most people in this country "get it" when it comes to how we are all so screwed with the condition of the current US health care system. They just feel helpless and don't know how it can be fixed.
Others are just VERY short-sighted.
Nice post.
Nothing in the US healthcare system is logical in the least whether you are "covered" or you aren't.
But I guess it has to do with the amount of taxes that we pay. If you make 200, 000 $ a year (which a doctor usually makes) you pay 50% in taxes.
The majority of the people between the age of 15-19 makes 7600 $ a year. You don't have to pay any taxes if you earn under 7600$.
I had a part time job last year and earned 20, 000 $ and payed 31% just in taxes.
The moral is, the higher the taxes, the better the health care (with certain exceptions). US is a kaptialstisc country. You have to work hard for youself and only yourself. In Norway you get money if you don't have a job, if your sick etc. (See the video, it reflects a rather correct side of the Norwegian health care system, but not every city is like that of course)l.
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I honestly don't think its the doctors, they system forces them to do corrupt things with Billing and whatnot.
note that the next time you get a prescription you'll be given it written off a pad that says....schering plows newest fad drug prescription here on the leather bound cover. God Forbid you should have to try a few different ones from thier prize closet of samples none of which have generics..... Trust me it's everybody... a payoff here, a scratch your back there. Either way the consumer is getting screwed...whether you get your doctoring dinero from the Government or from the other insurance you're paying for. Whose the last Doctor you saw driving off in a 91 Honda Accord? Yeah it's expensive to go to medical school, but none of them are hurting for dough.
If anything, we could certainly ax the prescription drug marketing nonsense in the US, even if it were only on the TV.
have you seen what Doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance. For OB-GYN's is usually well over 50% of what they make. I think doctors should be paid well, if you're smart enough and dedicated enough to do it, you should be rewarded.
exactly. doctors get fucked bad from insurance. I almost feel bad for them.
yes, and I agree it's absurd. Much of that is due to frivalous lawsuits...(I included that in my views of governmental corruption though that really lies with patients and general public attitudes towards lawsuits) I tend to think most suits against doctors are unfounded, but they fuck up too.
I'm not begrudging doctor salary at all I just include them in the corruption umbrella whether it's a work around or not.
Even with all the insurance, all that hurts is the patient because we end up paying more for it, just like all these "taxes on the corporations" everyone keeps talking about.
It's just embedded in the cost of health care. Any dime someone gets in a lawsuit or paid in insurance is simply tacked on to a bill somewhere else.
So basically, like damn near everything else in America.... Lawyers are at the heart of the problem.
I don't like to call peeps names but that guy truly earned it with that "all about be" comment. He could never run for office cause it appears all he sees is himself twice while looking in the mirror.
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Me. I want to run for office.
I'm a very generous person. I give to charity and would/have help out friends and family no matter what.
I would even support free healthcare for children (as well as seniors)
what I don't want.....
is to financially support people you are just looking for a hand out.
Lessen the quality of care.
and have the incompetent government in charge of caring for my health.
But couldn't pretty much everything a government provides its citizen be classified as a hand out. I mean one could argue that regular road maintenance is just a hand out to people who are too cheap to Hummers. Or the library is just a hand out for people who are looking for free books. Firefighters are a hand out for people who don't make the choice to live in fire resistant buildings and don't buy fire extinguishers. Recreation centers are totally a handout for people who don't want to sign up for private gyms. As I mentioned earlier schools are a handout for people who don't want to pay for their children's education themselves. I am curious why these "handouts" are ok but the idea of making sure people are have access to doctors so that they can stay healthy is wrong?
healthcare is more expensive that all those thing you mentioned x10. and with government involvement quality decreases. you mention roads. our infrastructure, namely, bridges suck.
First off, unless you can quote a particular statement from that link and then rehash it in your own words within a context relevent to your argument, then there is no reason why I should believe you even understand what's in that link. Many, many times on the net I run into those who think they've "said it all" by simply posting a link. It's like when cats raise their tails into the air hoping that their opponent will be dissuaded by the appearance of a taller object.
Point in fact is that wealthy and/or important foreigners have historically been coming to the US when they are in dire need of specialized healthcare. Rarely do wealthy and/or important US citizens seek treatment beyond our borders except in the cases where an experimental procedure has been approved on foreign soil, but not domestically.
The fact of the matter is that if foreign subsidized healthcare was superior in quality to free-market healthcare, this argument would have been pushed to the front of the liberal agenda for the implementation of universal health care.
Instead, we only hear about those who receive no treatment at all.
It's a pretty simple matter of looking at what subsidized industry has historically produced. The answer is sub-standard quality of product. Anyone
who understands basic economics knows this to be the truth.
If that's what you meant, then you are reinforcing my point because it's no secret that toyotas and hondas are of a higher level of quality than ford festivas.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
It makes it very difficult for her to remain in any kind of productive state of being.
But she continues to try hard to work and support herself. She loses a lot of jobs as a result if her health problems.
Three and a half months ago she got yet another job and ha s been trying really hard to not miss any time from work and stick out her shifts.
Two weeks ago she met her 90 day period before her health insurance kicks in. She was so happy and really looking forward to getting the medical attention and medication she needs to better manage her conditions. Thus live a more stable and productive life. She lived up to her end of the deal, she worked hard and also filled out all of the rquired paperwork.
Today, she got a call from the insurance company telling her that they are reviewing her medical history. They told her if they determine that her conditions are "Pre-existing" conditions; they won't cover any of her medical/prescription needs. That she will have to wait a full year of working there to get the coverage she needs and the insurance payments must continue to come out of her check for the duration of the year.
The health problems she has are genetic, degenerative diseases. Some of her conditions have been plaquing her since she was a child.
She can't get disability because she's always trying to work, support herself and going from job to job. So she makes too much money on a yearly basis.
Yet, she barely makes enough money to support herself and survive. She's always in need of financial help just for the basic needs of life (shelter, food, water...etc). She can't get Social Security assitance for the very same reason.
We all know what the Insurance company will do. If she's capable of sticking out the year at this job; they'll cancel her policy immediately as soon as she reaches her one year mark. Or they'll cover her for a month or two then cancel her policy. But it's more likely they'll lean on the company she works for to fire her; thus collecting the money for one year and ridding themselves of the responsibility of paying for her health care. It's happened to her before.
Even if she stops working all together, the benefits she would receive from disability and Social Security are not even close for her to have a roof over her head and food in her belly. She would be homeless or have to live with family or friends.
So what's she supposed to do in this "great" country of ours, the United States Of America?
At her previous job her boss was denied coverage for the cancer she has. Why you ask? Because the insurance company determined that her cancer existed before she was hired as manager of that company. So that woman (my friend's ex-boss) has to pay for all her cancer treatments, doctor's visits, hospital stays and medication....all out of her own pocket.
It leaves her with no money from her paychecks to contribute to the household or savings. She works to pay for her health care and she continues to week-in, week-out get herself and her husband into further debt. The bills are astronomical and they just keep piling up. They'll never pay them off in their collective life time.
Amazing, isn't it?
That's right, that's our great country......The United States Of America!!
Even if the government took control of health care, those types of injustices would not come to an end. Government has never been anything but totally inefficient and lacking in common sense.
Also, you mention that your friend is denied disability benefits because she "continues to work." Has she tried not working? Upon being fired, she can collect unemployment, during which time she can support her cause to gain disability status.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
That's not proof. That's nothing. Wealthy and/or important foreigners come the UK, Belgium, France, Norway... when they are in dire need of specialized healthcare. Rarely do wealthy and/or important citizens of those countries seek treatment beyond their own countries' borders.
That's just a statement and it doesn't mean a thing. Besides even if it was true, which is definitely debatable, all it proves is that if you are wealthy and important you can get good healthcare in the US. Well, that just about excludes 95% of the world's population.
So yes, I'd rather live in a country where you can get free, or almost free healthcare. And no, it isn't of lesser quality (you haven't showed any proof whatsoever, by the way, that it is). And lesser quality compared to what? Compared to the treatment the wealthy and important can get in the US? Or compared to the regular treatment half of American's population can't get or has to pay huge sums of money in order to get it?
Who said it was superior? It's probably equal. The only difference is we pay higher taxes, and everyone gets free (or almost free) healthcare.
Well, fuck those right? I mean they should work hard, who cares if they have cancer, they just have to work a little harder.
Those who receive no treatment are people like you and me. Imagine your wife, your mother, your daughter ... anyone you care about, was seriously sick and they can't pay for healthcare. You'd be happy to live in France or Norway or the UK, and you'd find out that your theory of 'lesser quality' is based on prejudices, not fact.
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So at what point does something become expensive enough to be labeled a "handout". Because that is what you are saying right, public libraries are not a hand out because they are much cheaper then what public health care would be.
My link was just a basic table, I didn't think it would be so hard to read.
Anyways, if you go here you will see that the US is behind France (among other countries with socialized healthcare) in all health indicators. Not just a few, but all of them, including major ones like infant mortality rates. Having a semi-free (people pay heavy taxes for this) healthcare system does not mean having crappy care.
And if you go back to this link you will see that the US spends more on health per capita than France, and that the total healthcare costs take a larger part of the GDP in the US as well. This basically means you are paying more for a less efficient system.
I understand that you may not want to pay for other people's healthcare but obviously the system in the US is not working right.
we are definately paying more for a less efficient system...and we are already paying into medicare/medicaid out of all of our paychecks.
One problem with a complete government paid healthcare system here would be abuse. Abuse that's already here. Americans abuse anything they don't feel they have any ownership in. If its percieved as free, it's a free for all to steal;abuse and otherwise vandalize it. I'm not sure we are responsible enough to take all the preventative steps like excercising and not going to the care facility for cuts and scrapes.... etc to make that kind of system effective either. Clearly it's in disarray and really ineffective and wasteful for most of us.... I just am not sure at all how to fix it yet anyway.
Even if we end up with some kind of umbrella deal where everyone is covered. I think it's imperative everyone who uses it pay something on site or in payment plans and be held accountable for paying for it....otherwise it's just asking to be abused.
Yea there is abuse, I live in Canada so I know a bit about what I am talking about. But I get the feeling that abuse isn't really as bad as people might think it is. Plus it is a trade off too, I mean yea the cases of abuse might go up, but with a universal system someone might also be more inclined to get early treatment for things if they are unsure about, that they might not see a doctor for if it cost them 100’s of dollars and turned out to be nothing. For example a guy might go to the doctor when he notices a funny looking mole on his arm, that may or may not be skin cancer and could easily be treated, rather than waiting until it is too late to do anything because it is too expensive to see a doctor for something that might just be a harmless mole. I would rather that people have access to early treatment (which in the long run would save money) and deal with the abuse cases rather than have the opposite any day.
Preventative care is really the key to keeping costs down.
How does the drug plan work in Canada?
Is it like Mexico where you don't need a prescription you just go get what you need?
No it is not at all like Mexico you definitely need a prescription. Drugs and other things like vision and dental care aren't really covered but the provincial health plan. With drugs I think the way it works (and correct me if I am wrong since I am in neither of these groups) if you are a senior or if you are really poor then I think after you reach a certain spending limit on drugs then the government starts paying for them (or at least paying a percentage). If you are in a hospital any drugs they give you are covered by the province though. Many of the full time jobs I have had in the past offer supplementary health plans which cover things like drugs, dental, vision and travel medical.
Oh yeah? Try proving it in a court of law or even trying to find a competent attorney to handle the case; without paying out several thousands of dollars. Money she doesn't have. This crap goes on every day and has been going on for a very long time.
True. And no one is more against welfare/social services fraud than I am.
On the other hand, the wealthy.....the rich.....the corporations ......the politicians often step outside the system, defraud the american public and break the law everyday; to aviod doing what's right or fair. Why should they be immune?
We are the government! We the people are the one's in charge of this country! But many of us have forgotten that little oh so significant fact.
It is us the people of this country who permit the "Government" to be inefficient, corrupted and downright dirty. It works in other countries becuause the citizens of those countries have a hands on active role in monitoring the activities, contributing to the laws and policies and keeping things in check. That's when it works well for some countries.
Only when the citizens hand over responsibility and power to their government, without a diligent and stern demand for accountability; do governments run rough-shot over the citizens. We allow it to be a mess.
It is our own american citizens who exist in a state of pre-occupation with greed, self-absorbtion and mindless distractions that permit these things to occur. It is our own american citizens who allow themselves to be bought-off/paid-off by ruthless corporations; so they look the other way and ignore the corruption, fruad and criminal activities. All so they can have a fancy, "classy" car, a big fancy house and pre-occupy themselves with American Idol and Britney Spears' latest exploits.
Everyone shut off their damn TVs and get invloved. Then you'll see real changes in this country.
She has been through a few stretches of not being able to work, because of her conditions; over the last 15 years. Not because she didn't want to work, but because she could not.
The Disability she received was pathetic and barely kept her fed. Certainly didn't provide her with enough money to have an apartment or home. She had to live with her mother the first time and with her brother; the second time. But both of those were bad situations for her because they really don't have much money either or the space to have her there. She was living in her bother's upstairs hallway, which opened up a little at the back of the house. They set up a bed for her in the hallway, because they had no spare bedrooms and have three kids. Two of which share one bedroom.
Her mother's house was even worse as she basically lived in her living room and her other younger brother was a major idiot about it.
Furthermore, Medicaid barely covered for anything in the way of prescriptions. She couldn't really get the correct health care (specialist doctors, tests, treatments..etc) and the prescriptions were still so very expensive and out of her reach.
It was her brother, her sister-in-law, myself and a few other close friends who sent her money quite often; just so she could get some of the medicine her general practitioner did prescribe.
But she really needed to be refered to specialists and receive constant treatments; which she had no coverage for or money to pay them. So she could never get any consistent appointments with them. No form of medical coverage, no money= no appointments. The one or two doctors/specialists who did see her, would not do any follow ups or extended treatments; because she couldn't pay the initial office visits.
The poultry money she got from disability was barely enough for food and personal stuff ( personal hygiene products ..etc) and see would struggle just to have one or two meals a day. Nevermind three meals a day.
WIC wouldn't help her and Food Stamps gave her a whopping $12.00 a month.
Everytime she was fired she applied for unemployment. Sometimes she got it, sometimes not. many of the emplyers fought to deny her unemployment on the grounds that she was fired to excessive absentism. Which of course is true and directly a result.......of her health conditions! Unemployment checks are rather small and would only last six months
Disability in every case tried to deny her, dragged their collective feet and basically made her wait three...four months before finally accepting her and sending out checks.
So she struggled for three or four months just to have her basic needs met.
But then she would receive the backchecks (three or four) dated back to the day she filed for disbility. And that would be great for her. She would get some food, put some money towards one or two outstanding doctor's bills or contribute to her mother or brother's household, for their letting her live there.......rent free. But the monthly checks were nothing anyone could live on and she'd be back at square one, again.
Even during those short time frames when she did receive unemployment and Disability; the money wasn't enough for her to have a small apartment, pay her bills and have food. Not to mention health care and medicine. She was always having to make a choise between food, medicine and other basic needs. She couldn't have them all.
is the whole price usually covered, or is there a copay for generic and premium that kind of thing?