U.S. can’t defeat insurgency in western Iraq, Marine Corp. report says

Cosmo

enharmonic wrote:

We can crush them, but we won't. It would be bad for public relations.

...
"Crush Them"? Aren't we there to 'Save Them'?

enharmonic

Cosmo wrote:

...
"Crush Them"? Aren't we there to 'Save Them'?

I don't see how we're under any obligation to save people who are trying to kill our troops.

War isn't pleasant. You can't be a nice guy and fight a war. Innocent people are going to die, and that's that. This is the same problem I have with inner city violence. If people want it to stop, they should turn in the insurgents...turn their backs on them and refuse to accept their behavior. Instead, they do nothing...but they come screaming and crying if an American missile goes astray and blows up a bunch of "innocents"

If you know people who are trying to kill your liberators, and you do nothing, you are not innocent.

cincybearcat

soulsinging wrote:

but is it worth what it would take to do so?

That's a good question.

Unsure.

cincybearcat

Open wrote:

After all this loss there is no "win" ... dont you get that by now?

Do you write TV ads for political campaigns?

Cosmo

enharmonic wrote:

I don't see how we're under any obligation to save people who are trying to kill our troops.

War isn't pleasant. You can't be a nice guy and fight a war. Innocent people are going to die, and that's that. This is the same problem I have with inner city violence. If people want it to stop, they should turn in the insurgents...turn their backs on them and refuse to accept their behavior. Instead, they do nothing...but they come screaming and crying if an American missile goes astray and blows up a bunch of "innocents"

If you know people who are trying to kill your liberators, and you do nothing, you are not innocent.

...
What if the reason why they are trying to kill our troops is because are troops are over there? If we're going to kill 'em all... why are we there in the first place?
And if they are killing each other... whose side to we choose?
...
It's a fucking mess... a complex problem that we thought we could solve with a simple solution. That isn't the case. The complex problems require complex solutions. I think that was the lesson we were supposed to have learned from Viet Nam.

norm

Trying to stabilize the middle east is like trying to stabilize jello.

Cosmo

cutback wrote:

Trying to stabilize the middle east is like trying to stabilize jello.

... in the bed of a pickup truck with worn shocks... as it drives along railroad tracks.

Open

enharmonic wrote:

I don't see how we're under any obligation to save people who are trying to kill our troops.

War isn't pleasant. You can't be a nice guy and fight a war. Innocent people are going to die, and that's that. This is the same problem I have with inner city violence. If people want it to stop, they should turn in the insurgents...turn their backs on them and refuse to accept their behavior. Instead, they do nothing...but they come screaming and crying if an American missile goes astray and blows up a bunch of "innocents"

If you know people who are trying to kill your liberators, and you do nothing, you are not innocent.

Yeah what a choice, turn your back to the insurgency and have your family kidnapped and slaughtered or take a chance of becoming "collatoral damage" they really have it good dont they? Why dont you get go down to your roughest hood and try stop a crime, see how far you get. The gall of some people, these innocent people are dying everyday b/c of OUR actions and you're trying to blame them? Unbelievable!

Open

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you write TV ads for political campaigns?

Wouldnt be hard in ohio (or any red state) ..."vote republican and you'll go to heaven" funny that's almost like a jihad isnt it?

enharmonic

Open wrote:

Yeah what a choice, turn your back to the insurgency and have your family kidnapped and slaughtered or take a chance of becoming "collatoral damage" they really have it good dont they? Why dont you get go down to your roughest hood and try stop a crime, see how far you get. The gall of some people, these innocent people are dying everyday b/c of OUR actions and you're trying to blame them? Unbelievable!

Yep.

You miss my point. I don't have to go down to the inner city to stop a crime. There are already people there who know the people doing the crime...yet when it's time to man up and get rid of their asses, they lack the spine.

These same people will cry about how evil America is because their house gets blown up, or their family members killed. well, maybe if they stood up to their own and demanded change, things would be different. If their own people take them out, it only proves my point yet again.

If you know what's up and you do nothing, you get what you deserve.

Cosmo

enharmonic wrote:

Yep.

You miss my point. I don't have to go down to the inner city to stop a crime. There are already people there who know the people doing the crime...yet when it's time to man up and get rid of their asses, they lack the spine.

These same people will cry about how evil America is because their house gets blown up, or their family members killed. well, maybe if they stood up to their own and demanded change, things would be different. If their own people take them out, it only proves my point yet again.

If you know what's up and you do nothing, you get what you deserve.

...
What if their demands were, 'Americans, GO HOME'? Like a lot of the Shi'ites are alreasdy calling for? Really... what can we do?

rebornFixer

Cosmo wrote:

...
What if their demands were, 'Americans, GO HOME'? Like a lot of the Shi'ites are alreasdy calling for? Really... what can we do?

The Americans leaving won't prevent a civil war ... But that doesn't mean that the Americans should stay.

Open

enharmonic wrote:

Yep.

You miss my point. I don't have to go down to the inner city to stop a crime. There are already people there who know the people doing the crime...yet when it's time to man up and get rid of their asses, they lack the spine.

These same people will cry about how evil America is because their house gets blown up, or their family members killed. well, maybe if they stood up to their own and demanded change, things would be different. If their own people take them out, it only proves my point yet again.

If you know what's up and you do nothing, you get what you deserve.

Apples and oranges...when was the last time that 21 people were kidnapped and shot in the head in the hood? I dont how understand how you can speak for those people in Iraq or even try to comprehend what they're going through?

Cosmo

reborncareerist wrote:

The Americans leaving won't prevent a civil war ... But that doesn't mean that the Americans should stay.

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I know... our staying didn't prevent it either. It's a fucking Warzone over there and our military guys are caught in the middle. They can't choose a side or kill them all.
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You know what would be fucked up?
If that fucking Iraqi Government invites Syrian and/or Iranian Troops in to try to help stop the bloodshed, since the American Military can't.
Man, can you imagine that?
...
The scariest part... I can actually see them doing just that.

Commy

Cosmo wrote:

...
I know... our staying didn't prevent it either. It's a fucking Warzone over there and our military guys are caught in the middle. They can't choose a side or kill them all.
...
You know what would be fucked up?
If that fucking Iraqi Government invites Syrian and/or Iranian Troops in to try to help stop the bloodshed, since the American Military can't.
Man, can you imagine that?
...
The scariest part... I can actually see them doing just that.

Letting people figure things out for themselves for a change doesn't sound too scary to me.

Scary to me is letting the US try and set up some system. They have the worst track record in the world when in comes to propping up gov't's (and incidentally the most attempts). For things that matter anyway, you know the wellbeing of the majority of the people in the country, number of hospitals, number of schools, social services, protection of resources. If you need examples look at Brazil or Central America, or any number of a dozen countries.

trappedinmyradio

this is ridiculous...the U.S. can defeat any army in the world...the key word is can...do they? no.

Commy

trappedinmyradio wrote:

this is ridiculous...the U.S. can defeat any army in the world...the key word is can...do they? no.

the viet cong would disagree. as would the Iraqi resistance.

jeffbr

Commy wrote:

the viet cong would disagree. as would the Iraqi resistance.

Only because they don't understand what is happening in Washington, D.C. And it sounds like you get it either. It is D.C. that can't seem to get it right, not the military. The Iraqi armed forces know without a doubt that the U.S. had no trouble with them.

Abuskedti

trappedinmyradio wrote:

this is ridiculous...the U.S. can defeat any army in the world...the key word is can...do they? no.

its that thinking that has us lost in Iraq.. just butchering people in ignorance

jeffbr

Abuskedti wrote:

its that thinking that has us lost in Iraq.. just butchering people in ignorance

No, it is the way war is prosecuted these days that has us lost in Iraq. If we go in, we should go in with VERY clear objectives, adequate number of soldiers and a clearly defined exit strategy. Instead, we have suits in D.C. making poor choices and handcuffing our military.