Pardon or Prison? What do you think?

SuzannePjamSuzannePjam Posts: 411
edited June 2007 in A Moving Train
I think Bush will have no choice but to pardon Libby. He knows too much and might spill if he's sent to prison. I would bet money he was told if he took the fall he would be pardoned. But if he is pardoned it will be another nail in the coffin for the Bush administration which headed for a lame duck presidency.

Pardon a sensitive topic for White House
Bush faces dilemma in case of ex-Cheney staffer Libby

By Peter Baker

Updated: 51 minutes ago
The sentence imposed on former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby yesterday put President Bush in the position of making a decision he has tried to avoid for months: Trigger a fresh political storm by pardoning a convicted perjurer or let one of the early architects of his administration head to prison.
The prospect of a pardon has become so sensitive inside the West Wing that top aides have been kept out of the loop, and even Bush friends have been told not to bring it up with the president. In any debate, officials expect Vice President Cheney to favor a pardon, while other aides worry about the political consequences of stepping into a case that stems from the origins of the Iraq war and renewing questions about the truthfulness of the Bush administration.

The White House publicly sought to defer the matter again yesterday, saying that Bush is "not going to intervene" for now. But U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton indicated that he is not inclined to let Libby remain free pending appeals, which means the issue could confront Bush in a matter of weeks when, barring a judicial change of heart, Cheney's former chief of staff will have to trade his business suit for prison garb. Republicans inside and outside the administration said that would be the moment when Bush has to decide.
"Obviously, there'd be a significant political price to pay," said William P. Barr, who as attorney general to President George H.W. Bush remembers the controversy raised by the last-minute pardons for several Iran-contra figures in 1992. "I personally am very sympathetic to Scooter Libby. But it would be a tough call to do it at this stage."
At the same time, some White House advisers said the president's political troubles are already so deep that a pardon might not be so damaging. Those most upset by the CIA leak case that led to the Libby conviction already oppose Bush, they noted. "You can't hang a man twice for the same crime," a Republican close to the White House said.
The issue comes at a time when the Bush administration already has been trying to deflect allegations of cronyism stemming from the dismissals of U.S. attorneys. After resisting months of bipartisan calls for Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales's resignation, the White House had hoped that the matter was fading from the headlines and was relieved that the latest corruption news was the bribery indictment of a Democratic congressman, William J. Jefferson (La.).
Lobbying the White House
But Walton's decision to sentence Libby to 2 1/2 years in prison for perjury and obstruction of justice refocused attention on the administration and touched off a new debate. Libby supporters kicked off a bid to lobby the White House for a pardon. Barely an hour after the sentence was handed down, the conservative National Review posted an editorial on its Web site headlined "Pardon Him."
The magazine contended that Libby had been "found guilty of process crimes," when the special prosecutor never brought charges relating to the leak of CIA officer Valerie Plame's name: "He is a dedicated public servant caught in a crazy political fight that should have never happened, convicted of lying about a crime that the prosecutor can't even prove was committed."
The Weekly Standard followed with a cutting piece accusing Bush of abandoning Libby: "So much for loyalty, or decency, or courage. For President Bush, loyalty is apparently a one-way street; decency is something he's for as long as he doesn't have to take any risks in its behalf; and courage -- well, that's nowhere to be seen. Many of us used to respect President Bush. Can one respect him still?"
Some former Bush administration officials joined in. "I think the prosecution was unwarranted, and I think a pardon would be exactly the right thing for the president to do," John R. Bolton, a former ambassador to the United Nations, said by e-mail.
Democrats asserted that a pardon would be an outrage. "Serious offenses resulted in the appropriate sentencing of Scooter Libby today," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (Calif.). "The president must not pardon him." Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (Nev.) added: "The Libby case revealed the lengths to which the Bush administration went to manipulate intelligence and discredit its critics."
‘It’s Ethics 101’
Joseph C. Wilson IV, Plame's husband, said a pardon would be improper. "My view of this is that given the supervisory-subordinate relationship that existed between Cheney, the president and Libby, they should recuse themselves," he said. "It's Ethics 101."
If Bush were to decide to pardon Libby, he would have to short-circuit the normal process. Under Justice Department guidelines, Libby would not qualify for a pardon. The guidelines require applicants to wait at least five years after being released from prison. The review process after the submission of an application typically can take two years before a decision is made. During more than six years in office, Bush has pardoned just 113 people, nearly a modern low, and never anyone who had not yet completed his sentence. He has commuted three sentences.
But the president's power to pardon under Article II of the Constitution is essentially unrestricted, so he can ignore the guidelines if he chooses. Other presidents who did so stirred furors, most prominently when Gerald R. Ford pardoned his Watergate-stained predecessor, Richard M. Nixon; when George H.W. Bush issued his Iran-contra pardons; and when Bill Clinton in his last hours in office pardoned financier Marc Rich, Whitewater figure Susan McDougal, his brother Roger Clinton and scores of others.
The current president has not ruled out a Libby pardon but tried to put off discussion of it. Informed of the sentence while traveling in Europe yesterday, Bush sent out a spokeswoman to say that he "felt terrible for the family" but would wait to see what happens when Walton holds a hearing next week on whether Libby goes to prison during his appeal. "The president has not intervened so far in this or any other criminal matter, and so he is going to decline to do so now as well," Dana Perino told reporters aboard Air Force One.
Cheney's office declined to comment beyond giving a statement in which he praised Libby and expressed the hope that he would avoid prison. "The defense has indicated it plans to appeal the conviction in the case," Cheney said. "Speaking as friends, we hope that our system will return a final result consistent with what we know of this fine man."
"Where there is sacrifice there is someone collecting the sacrificial offerings."-- Ayn Rand

"Some of my friends sit around every evening and they worry about the times ahead,
But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference and the promise of an early bed..."-- Elvis Costello
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    If you knew a certain person was an undercover cop, to release such information could place that officer's life in jeopardy and prevent the officer from performing their job.

    The military maintains strict confidentially of soldiers in the areas of covert operations. To release the identity of such soldier or the location of said soldier could place that soldier's life in jeopardy along with other soldiers and jeopardize a sensitive military operation.

    If you knew a certain person was a CIA operative, to release such information could place that operative's life in jeopardy along with others. It would prevent that operative from performing their duty and could compromise the intelligence information presented in order for a "nation" to make vital decisions that could have global impact.

    Libby is a traitor. I say pardon him so that his name is forever linked to Cheney, Bush and Rowe so the underlying treasonous act against America won't be forgotten. What's 30 months compared to the number of dead, dying and maimed to protect a lie? Pardon him and let it weigh forever on him and his family every time they hear of a military family left behind. A child left without a mother or father. A husband or wife gone. A sister, brother, son or daughter, maimed. A soldier who puts a bullet to his/her head. Let this be your treasonous legacy.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • Bu2Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    And I agree, in part. But I believe Bush will not pardon Libby until Bush's last days in the White House in '09. Libby took the fall for Cheney. Cheney is already under the microscope for all his other problems, Halliburton being one of them. And Bush and Cheney and Rove are already under the microscope for everything else, and Rice and Gonzalez are right alongside them.

    If Bush were to pardon Libby this summer, it would be the straw that breaks the camel's proverbial back. Bush already has to contend with his unwanted war and with the continuing investigation of Gonzo and the Justice Dept.

    Valerie Plame is seeking a suit of her own, which only adds to the mix.

    Bush would be absolutely stupid to pardon Libby now. Libby's going to jail, and once the headlines about THAT disappear (complete with pictures), Bush will be able to rest at night knowing he has one less public problem to worry about until 2009.
    Feels Good Inc.
  • Purple HawkPurple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    my take as articulated by Dr. Democracy:

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_060607/content/01125106.guest.html

    "You have to hear this. It's an excerpt from the letter that Paul Wolfowitz wrote to Judge Reggie Walton. "I also remember how Mr. Libby offered his services pro bono or at reduced costs..." he was a lawyer "... after he had returned to private law practice - to help former colleagues and friends with legal issues. In one case he helped a public official defend himself against libelous accusations, something that is extremely difficult to do for anyone in public office. The official in question was Richard Armitage..." I got a chill up my spine when I read this today on the Power Line blog. "The official in question was Richard Armitage, who more recently served as Deputy Secretary of State." David Frum actually had this, too, at National Review Online.

    Armitage is the leaker. This investigation should have been shut down; it should have never started. The trial should have never started because Fitzfong had exactly what he needed before he even started this stuff. Armitage was the leaker. Armitage sat by and watched Scooter Libby twist in the wind, sits by now and does nothing to help him, and yet it was Libby who helped Armitage either pro bono or at reduced prices, reduced costs, defend himself against accusations of libel. Man, that town, folks, is a cesspool of me-ism."

    even better...

    "We know Clinton lied to a grand jury, suborned perjury among others.

    He lied under oath to a federal judge.

    Try this. How about this? Try this version of the story: "Scooter Libby, charged with lying to a grand jury, stays on job for two more years, gets $12 million book deal, $40 million in speaking fees, and a $200 million library and has become the Democrat Party's most favored ex-statesman roaming the world as their goodwill ambassador." Bill Clinton lied to a grand jury, suborned perjury. He gets 150 to $200,000 a speech, $12 million book deal, $200 million library. Scooter Libby goes to jail for two and a half years. The correct comparison here is not Scooter Libby to Sandy Burglar. It is Scooter Libby to Bill Clinton. Now, this illustration is flawed, obviously, because Clinton knowingly lied to the garbage. He did it on purpose. Libby might or might not have. So many people in the country, with apologies to Simon and Garfunkel and Mrs. Robinson, ask, "Where have you gone, George W.?" They want the pardon. The White House says, "We're not going to intervene. We never do until the appeals process is over." The people want a political witch hunt, here, corrected, and they want the president to defend his defenders. There's still time."

    W has lacked a spine so many times, and will continue on here...which makes me puzzeled why the left hates him so much. i can't imagine these boards if there was actually a conservative sitting as the president.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Bu2Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    who wears glasses and does nothing but read our political posts and gets paid to hand over our usernames to Rove, Cheney and Bush....
    Feels Good Inc.
  • Purple HawkPurple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Bu2 wrote:
    who wears glasses and does nothing but read our political posts and gets paid to hand over our usernames to Rove, Cheney and Bush....

    *xfiles theme song*

    :)
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Bu2Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    but only Bush gets to see it....

    ....and he ain't talking.
    Feels Good Inc.
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    I just saw on MSNBC that Libby's motion to stay out of prison during appeals was denied. He will head to prison (barring only a pardon) in 30-45 days.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • TrauTrau Posts: 188
    Valerie Plame was not in any danger whatsoever.

    And it wasn't Libby who leaked her name, anyway. It was Richard Armitage, who admitted it himself.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Trau wrote:
    Valerie Plame was not in any danger whatsoever.

    And it wasn't Libby who leaked her name, anyway. It was Richard Armitage, who admitted it himself.

    You don't know if Plame was in danger or not... we don't have access to CIA files to see what she was actually involved in, so you don't have the knowledge to make such a blanket statement.

    And your second sentence has no bearing on this case whatsoever.... He was not charged with leaking her name.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    if he pardons him, i'm sure it will be the last day of office, that is the best move with the least political fallout. Other presidents have granted pardons for just as controversial people. I hope he's NOT pardoned, unless there is overwhelming evidence that comes to light showing that he's not guilty.

    maybe he'll grant Valerie Plame a pardon for her possible perjury that occurred.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    he will pardon him....


    why should any member of this administration ever have any accountablility?

    why would the white house give the false impression that the judiciary had any say in any government matter. it has been made abundantly clear that the white house is the only authority in this country. the entire planet for that matter. congress does not matter, the american people do not matter. the department of justice is now another arm of the white house, and to allow the judicial system to have any effect whatsoever over the white house would be a sign of weakness.

    also, scooter can still aviod prison by rolling over on higher white house officials... if he ratted out cheney he would have his prison term go away..... the white house would love nothing more than openly pardoning scooter to avoid him from testifying against them. they absolutely live for showing the american public how corrupt they are... the more they get away with it and flaunt it in our faces, the more powerful they become... and they like us to know there is nothing we can do about it.
  • TrauTrau Posts: 188
    You don't know if Plame was in danger or not... we don't have access to CIA files to see what she was actually involved in, so you don't have the knowledge to make such a blanket statement.

    Damage assessments showed that no damage was caused.
    And your second sentence has no bearing on this case whatsoever.... He was not charged with leaking her name.

    A poster in this thread made that charge.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Trau wrote:
    Damage assessments showed that no damage was caused.

    I may have misspoke in regards to actual damage/potential damage... In my opinion it doesn't matter if damage was actually caused, or if the possibility of damage is created. If I work building a gov't weapons system and sell secrets to an enemy, whether that information actually damages us in anyway is inconsequential. I am still guilty of espionage/treason because I put people in jeopardy.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • TeslarockerTeslarocker Posts: 123
    Good for the judge for not giving in to those threatening letters from Libbys right wing friends or those pleas for clemency from people who thought that the judge would be impressed by their legal credentials (like that guy who teaches at Pepperdine who appeared on The News Hour with Jim Lehrer last night). The judge has indicated that Libby will not be free pending appeal and I applaud him for that

    I say no way should Bush pardon Libby. But whether he will is likely to be another story. If he does, I hope it sparks a Liberal backlash

    My final thoughts on Libby are this: If he's like the other people who work for Bush, then he totally lacks compassion. Thanks to the Judge, he now knows how it feels to be the object of a lack of compassion. Again, good for the judge!
  • TeslarockerTeslarocker Posts: 123
    chopitdown wrote:
    maybe he'll grant Valerie Plame a pardon for her possible perjury that occurred.

    Where is your proof that she committed perjury?
Sign In or Register to comment.