The problem was that he was never entered in the system as someone disqualified as being allowed to purchase a gun.
From the CNN article above: "Under federal law, anyone who has been judged to be a danger to himself or others because of mental illness, as Cho was, should be prohibited from buying a gun."
If he was turned down form the gun stores for purchasing a gun, who knows if he would have acquired a gun from an illegal source... no one knows that answer, but there is a decent chance that he wouldn't have been able to get one and 32 people would still be alive.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
These guys in Washington come up with some outlandish ideas. Keeping firearms from crazy folks ?! What a thinktank we have working for us.
=============================================
U.S. Congress may act to keep guns from mentally ill
By Thomas Ferraro
Sun Apr 22, 4:09 PM ET
Prompted by the Virginia Tech massacre, a U.S. Congress reluctant to tackle gun control may pass limited legislation to help keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill, lawmakers and aides said on Sunday.
"Given the horror that happened at Virginia Tech, I think there's a real chance of passing this," said Sen. Charles Schumer (news, bio, voting record), a New York Democrat, told "Fox News Sunday."
A Republican leadership aide agreed, telling Reuters, "If there is a consensus, and it is in lieu of knee-jerk draconian measures, (the chances are) probably really good."
Congress was initially hesitant to respond to the shooting rampage at Virginia Tech on Monday with any vow to toughen gun-control, a politically divisive issue.
In fact, Democrats, who had earlier championed such measures, including a since expired 1994 ban on assault weapons, effectively abandoned the issue when they won control of Congress last year.
Yet after it was determined that the Virginia Tech killer had been admitted earlier to a psychiatric hospital and deemed "a danger to himself and others," lawmakers dusted off previously rejected legislation.
Seung-Hui Cho, a Virginia Tech student, took his own life after fatally shooting 32 others. He had bought two handguns in Virginia but his mental health had not made it to a federal registry.
The proposed bill would provide money to the states to help update the national instant-check background system with mental-health adjudications, which ban firearm purchases.
In the House of Representatives, Rep. Charles Dingell, a Michigan Democrat and gun-rights proponent, has teamed up on such legislation with Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (news, bio, voting record), a leading gun control advocate.
Appearing with Schumer on "Fox News Sunday," Sen. Arlen Specter (news, bio, voting record), a Pennsylvania Republican, voiced support.
So did Sarah and Jim Brady, two leading gun-control advocates. They have helped lead the charge since Jim Brady was wounded in the 1981 attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan. He was Reagan's press secretary.
"We're not working to take handguns away from people. But what we do believe is that we need to curb the availability of these weapons to prohibited classes: felons, fugitives, and of course in this case, those who have been adjudicated mentally ill," said Sarah Brady who appeared with her husband on CBS's "Face the Nation."
A bill passed by Congress a decade ago and named for Jim Brady, required an instant background check for gun buyers.
"What we had here, unfortunately, as come out in the last day or so, is that the system did break down," Sarah Brady said.
(Additional reporting by Rachelle Younglai)
the laws are already on the books. what will repetative laws accomplish?
not quite. yes, it is almost impossible to enforce a campus ban becos you cannot tell who is carrying them. however, to carry them onto campus, you have to buy them somewhere first. if he had not been able to buy one (a MUCH easier and more enforceable law), then he wouldn't have been able to carry it onto campus. is this really so hard to comprehend?
that said, im not sure how they get mental health to show up on background checks. it's why i still think it's fucking stupid to do background checks.
You can get a gun without buying one. I think it happens all the time.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You can get a gun without buying one. I think it happens all the time.
Indeed ... Or, at least, you can buy a gun from a source that doesn't follow all the laws on the books. This is probably what happens in the majority of cases where known criminals kill someone.
Is this really so hard to comprehend?
Indeed ... Or, at least, you can buy a gun from a source that doesn't follow all the laws on the books. This is probably what happens in the majority of cases where known criminals kill someone.
Is this really so hard to comprehend?
But would Cho have been able to do that? To buy a gun on the black market, you have to know someone on the black market, and it doesn't sound like this guy knew anyone at all, anywhere. It's like drugs ... sure, they're easy to buy if you know where to go, but for someone who doesn't use drugs or hang around with drug people, they wouldn't know where to start if they wanted to go pick up some crack, unless they lived in a neighborhood where drugs are traded pretty openly. I'm guessing Cho wouldn't have had the foggiest idea how to go about getting a gun if he hadn't been able to walk into a store and buy one.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
But would Cho have been able to do that? To buy a gun on the black market, you have to know someone on the black market, and it doesn't sound like this guy knew anyone at all, anywhere. It's like drugs ... sure, they're easy to buy if you know where to go, but for someone who doesn't use drugs or hang around with drug people, they wouldn't know where to start if they wanted to go pick up some crack, unless they lived in a neighborhood where drugs are traded pretty openly. I'm guessing Cho wouldn't have had the foggiest idea how to go about getting a gun if he hadn't been able to walk into a store and buy one.
Perhaps, but you don't know that for sure ... Neither one of us has met Cho. To be honest with you, I am a completely law-abiding person but I could probably buy an illegal handgun if I really wanted to (why the hell would I want to, of course!) ... For the record, it shouldn't be this easy to get a gun in Virginia or any other state. I will argue, however, that one cannot honestly say that stricter laws would have worked in this particular case. Many other school shooters do not simply walk into gun stores and buy weapons.
anyoone that thinks the USA does not have a MAJOR problem with firearms is either a fool, or has not been paying attention the past 20 years. period.
guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people
Fools are people who think guns are the primary problem, however. Its attitudes about gun use and violence in general that are the deep, real problem here. Lax gun laws are a manifestation of that deeper problem ... They are not a fundamental cause.
Perhaps, but you don't know that for sure ... Neither one of us has met Cho. To be honest with you, I am a completely law-abiding person but I could probably buy an illegal handgun if I really wanted to (why the hell would I want to, of course!) ... For the record, it shouldn't be this easy to get a gun in Virginia or any other state. I will argue, however, that one cannot honestly say that stricter laws would have worked in this particular case. Many other school shooters do not simply walk into gun stores and buy weapons.
I wouldn't know where to buy a weapon illegally, but thanks to Ohio law I don't have to. I know where to buy a used weapon where there's no paper trail and the guy who sold it to me doesn't even know my name. Any weekend of the year, I can do just that at a gun show, and they're advertised in the newspaper, it's all perfectly legal. Who needs black market guns when you've got the state helping out this way?
You're right, most of the other school shooters didn't buy most of their guns, they stole them, which is why there needs to be extremely harsh penalties for gun owners who fail to secure their guns and ammunition. That would prevent a huge number of accidental shootings as well, which kill more people than these occasional shooting sprees.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
You're right, most of the other school shooters didn't buy most of their guns, they stole them, which is why there needs to be extremely harsh penalties for gun owners who fail to secure their guns and ammunition. That would prevent a huge number of accidental shootings as well, which kill more people than these occasional shooting sprees.
For sure ... Safe storage laws do save lives, that's actually been found in studies. Common sense would also dictate keeping anything dangerous safely stowed away.
I wouldn't know where to buy a weapon illegally, but thanks to Ohio law I don't have to. I know where to buy a used weapon where there's no paper trail and the guy who sold it to me doesn't even know my name. Any weekend of the year, I can do just that at a gun show, and they're advertised in the newspaper, it's all perfectly legal. Who needs black market guns when you've got the state helping out this way?
You're right, most of the other school shooters didn't buy most of their guns, they stole them, which is why there needs to be extremely harsh penalties for gun owners who fail to secure their guns and ammunition. That would prevent a huge number of accidental shootings as well, which kill more people than these occasional shooting sprees.
That is asinine in Ohio that they don't do background checks for firearm purchases at gun shows. All it takes is a 5 minute phone call to run the check and it amazes me that a state wouldn't make it mandatory.
And while I can't speak for Cho, I don't think that it would be hard to find a gun illegally. I work on the edge of a not so great part of town (Albany, NY) and I would bet that with a little effort, I could buy a gun or drugs or whatever.
The only reason that I'm not sure about Cho doing it, was because his roommates said that he never talked to anyone and he has some socialization issues... I don't know if he would have been able to do it.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
For sure ... Safe storage laws do save lives, that's actually been found in studies. Common sense would also dictate keeping anything dangerous safely stowed away.
and if someone steals your car and injures or kills someone; you should be held responsable for that too.
if we're throwing out the bill of rights; we need to do it in a way that everyone is treated equal.
But would Cho have been able to do that? To buy a gun on the black market, you have to know someone on the black market, and it doesn't sound like this guy knew anyone at all, anywhere. It's like drugs ... sure, they're easy to buy if you know where to go, but for someone who doesn't use drugs or hang around with drug people, they wouldn't know where to start if they wanted to go pick up some crack, unless they lived in a neighborhood where drugs are traded pretty openly. I'm guessing Cho wouldn't have had the foggiest idea how to go about getting a gun if he hadn't been able to walk into a store and buy one.
What if his Dad had a gun and he took it? There are tons of scenarios for getting a gun illegally if you want one bad enough.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The only reason that I'm not sure about Cho doing it, was because his roommates said that he never talked to anyone and he has some socialization issues... I don't know if he would have been able to do it.
I agree with this as a potential barrier ... And obviously stopping this sort of person from getting a gun is a good thing. If this means strict laws, so be it. I think at a bare minimum background checks and a license should be mandatory. And yes, the possibility of mental illness should be considered. What I rail against a bit is this view that somehow more laws are a "miracle solution", though. The problem won't go away so easily.
I agree with this as a potential barrier ... And obviously stopping this sort of person from getting a gun is a good thing. If this means strict laws, so be it. I think at a bare minimum background checks and a license should be mandatory. And yes, the possibility of mental illness should be considered. What I rail against a bit is this view that somehow more laws are a "miracle solution", though. The problem won't go away so easily.
we have a lot of privacy issues in this country. medical records are private; as are many other. the same number that would allow me access to a potential buyers background also gives me access to your's or anyone elses information.
i don't think he should have been allowed to buy a gun both on the mental illness issue but also because he's an alien. american's rights are for citizens.
I agree with this as a potential barrier ... And obviously stopping this sort of person from getting a gun is a good thing. If this means strict laws, so be it. I think at a bare minimum background checks and a license should be mandatory. And yes, the possibility of mental illness should be considered. What I rail against a bit is this view that somehow more laws are a "miracle solution", though. The problem won't go away so easily.
That's why I think a common sense approach needs to be taken... Saying that a gun control law is a silver bullet to solve our problems with gun violence to me is a asinine as saying that we should repeal all gun laws because they don't work.
If we can put enforceable legal barriers in place (across the country) like mandatory background checks, including trigger locks with all guns sold, punishing people who don't secure weapons and ammo, etc., I think that we can decrease the amount of gun violence just a little... And after all, a small decrease can save lives.
But I have no idea how to reduce the glorification of violence in our society... that is the biggest issue.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
we have a lot of privacy issues in this country. medical records are private; as are many other. the same number that would allow me access to a potential buyers background also gives me access to your's or anyone elses information.
I'm not sure that I see your concern about medical records... If a gun store owner calls or goes online to do a background check on someone, he doesn't have to see why the person is rejected, it could be for a criminal record, a medical reason or whatever. There is no loss of privacy for the potential purchaser's medical history.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I'm not sure that I see your concern about medical records... If a gun store owner calls or goes online to do a background check on someone, he doesn't have to see why the person is rejected, it could be for a criminal record, a medical reason or whatever. There is no loss of privacy for the potential purchaser's medical history.
fair enough; but that information alone can be damaging.
But I have no idea how to reduce the glorification of violence in our society... that is the biggest issue.
When you look at homicide by firearm stats in the U.S., there are a few glaring patterns. One, most of the killing is done by young men in the 20-24 age range. The next highest group is the 16-20 age range. Believe it or not, homicides by gun have actually decreased since peaking in the early 90s ... What has sustained the relatively high rates is a large number of killings that are either gang or drug related ... There is a violent urban subculture driving a lot of the violence. Some have linked this subculture to "hip hop". You can use these stats to make racist arguments, of course, but the numbers don't lie: Young black men are way overrepresented in both offender and victim stats. This reflects social issues like poverty, bad parenting, racism ... It also reflects disturbing social values held by these young men, like positive attitudes towards violence and a need to be "tough" when responding to provocation.
Something needs to be done about THIS ... But nobody says much about it. Its the high profile school shootings that get the press.
Comments
But in his case, he went to a store that performed a background check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/24/gun.loophole/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)
The problem was that he was never entered in the system as someone disqualified as being allowed to purchase a gun.
From the CNN article above: "Under federal law, anyone who has been judged to be a danger to himself or others because of mental illness, as Cho was, should be prohibited from buying a gun."
If he was turned down form the gun stores for purchasing a gun, who knows if he would have acquired a gun from an illegal source... no one knows that answer, but there is a decent chance that he wouldn't have been able to get one and 32 people would still be alive.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
the laws are already on the books. what will repetative laws accomplish?
You can get a gun without buying one. I think it happens all the time.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Indeed ... Or, at least, you can buy a gun from a source that doesn't follow all the laws on the books. This is probably what happens in the majority of cases where known criminals kill someone.
Is this really so hard to comprehend?
guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people
Perhaps, but you don't know that for sure ... Neither one of us has met Cho. To be honest with you, I am a completely law-abiding person but I could probably buy an illegal handgun if I really wanted to (why the hell would I want to, of course!) ... For the record, it shouldn't be this easy to get a gun in Virginia or any other state. I will argue, however, that one cannot honestly say that stricter laws would have worked in this particular case. Many other school shooters do not simply walk into gun stores and buy weapons.
Fools are people who think guns are the primary problem, however. Its attitudes about gun use and violence in general that are the deep, real problem here. Lax gun laws are a manifestation of that deeper problem ... They are not a fundamental cause.
You're right, most of the other school shooters didn't buy most of their guns, they stole them, which is why there needs to be extremely harsh penalties for gun owners who fail to secure their guns and ammunition. That would prevent a huge number of accidental shootings as well, which kill more people than these occasional shooting sprees.
For sure ... Safe storage laws do save lives, that's actually been found in studies. Common sense would also dictate keeping anything dangerous safely stowed away.
That is asinine in Ohio that they don't do background checks for firearm purchases at gun shows. All it takes is a 5 minute phone call to run the check and it amazes me that a state wouldn't make it mandatory.
And while I can't speak for Cho, I don't think that it would be hard to find a gun illegally. I work on the edge of a not so great part of town (Albany, NY) and I would bet that with a little effort, I could buy a gun or drugs or whatever.
The only reason that I'm not sure about Cho doing it, was because his roommates said that he never talked to anyone and he has some socialization issues... I don't know if he would have been able to do it.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
and if someone steals your car and injures or kills someone; you should be held responsable for that too.
if we're throwing out the bill of rights; we need to do it in a way that everyone is treated equal.
What if his Dad had a gun and he took it? There are tons of scenarios for getting a gun illegally if you want one bad enough.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I agree with this as a potential barrier ... And obviously stopping this sort of person from getting a gun is a good thing. If this means strict laws, so be it. I think at a bare minimum background checks and a license should be mandatory. And yes, the possibility of mental illness should be considered. What I rail against a bit is this view that somehow more laws are a "miracle solution", though. The problem won't go away so easily.
we have a lot of privacy issues in this country. medical records are private; as are many other. the same number that would allow me access to a potential buyers background also gives me access to your's or anyone elses information.
i don't think he should have been allowed to buy a gun both on the mental illness issue but also because he's an alien. american's rights are for citizens.
But shouldn't we stop some of the easiest ways if we can?
That's like saying that we shouldn't even bother with car locks or anti-theft devices because if someone wants to steal it bad enough, then they will.
That's why I think a common sense approach needs to be taken... Saying that a gun control law is a silver bullet to solve our problems with gun violence to me is a asinine as saying that we should repeal all gun laws because they don't work.
If we can put enforceable legal barriers in place (across the country) like mandatory background checks, including trigger locks with all guns sold, punishing people who don't secure weapons and ammo, etc., I think that we can decrease the amount of gun violence just a little... And after all, a small decrease can save lives.
But I have no idea how to reduce the glorification of violence in our society... that is the biggest issue.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I'm not sure that I see your concern about medical records... If a gun store owner calls or goes online to do a background check on someone, he doesn't have to see why the person is rejected, it could be for a criminal record, a medical reason or whatever. There is no loss of privacy for the potential purchaser's medical history.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
fair enough; but that information alone can be damaging.
When you look at homicide by firearm stats in the U.S., there are a few glaring patterns. One, most of the killing is done by young men in the 20-24 age range. The next highest group is the 16-20 age range. Believe it or not, homicides by gun have actually decreased since peaking in the early 90s ... What has sustained the relatively high rates is a large number of killings that are either gang or drug related ... There is a violent urban subculture driving a lot of the violence. Some have linked this subculture to "hip hop". You can use these stats to make racist arguments, of course, but the numbers don't lie: Young black men are way overrepresented in both offender and victim stats. This reflects social issues like poverty, bad parenting, racism ... It also reflects disturbing social values held by these young men, like positive attitudes towards violence and a need to be "tough" when responding to provocation.
Something needs to be done about THIS ... But nobody says much about it. Its the high profile school shootings that get the press.
Sure Troll, whatever you say. I was just having fun.