Pat Tillman

theboxerorthebag

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15635557/

norm

I hate war.:(

lastexit78

The sad thing is that a lot of our soldiers have been killed by friendly fire since 9/11. Tillman's case is obviously more high profile but this is actually fairly common. There are dozens of families who don't know the truth as to how there loved ones were killed. Thanks to clowns like Rumsfeld those families will never know the truth.

The Waiting Trophy Man

this is one example where the u.s. military's 'shoot first, ask questions later' policy back fired on them(pardon the pun).

sapperskunk

aBoxOfFear wrote:

this is one example where the u.s. military's 'shoot first, ask questions later' policy back fired on them(pardon the pun).

The military doesn't have a shoot first ask questions later policy. The Rules of Engagement are public domain and you can google them I'm sure. If you can't find them I can tell you the ROE for Iraq or Kosovo during the times of my deployments. Standard Operating Procedures are constantly emplaced and enforced. Shi* happens.

sponger

aBoxOfFear wrote:

this is one example where the u.s. military's 'shoot first, ask questions later' policy back fired on them(pardon the pun).

You have absolutely no idea about that which you are speaking of.

The Waiting Trophy Man

sponger wrote:

You have absolutely no idea about that which you are speaking of.

One of the four shooters, Staff Sgt. Trevor Alders, had recently had PRK laser eye surgery. Although he could see two sets of hands “straight up,” his vision was “hazy,” he said. In the absence of “friendly identifying signals,” he assumed Tillman and an allied Afghan who also was killed were enemy.

Another, Spc. Steve Elliott, said he was “excited” by the sight of rifles, muzzle flashes and “shapes.” A third, Spc. Stephen Ashpole, said he saw two figures, and just aimed where everyone else was shooting.

Squad leader Sgt. Greg Baker had 20-20 eyesight, but claimed he had “tunnel vision.” Amid the chaos and pumping adrenaline, Baker said he hammered what he thought was the enemy but was actually the allied Afghan fighter next to Tillman who was trying to give the Americans cover: “I zoned in on him because I could see the AK-47. I focused only on him.”

"All four failed to identify their targets before firing."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15635557/

*now, the last line, after "all four failed to identify their targets before firing" goes like this "a direct violation of the fire discipline techniques drilled into every soldier" to which i respond like this: :rolleyes:

SweetHarmonics

sapperskunk wrote:

Standard Operating Procedures are constantly emplaced and enforced. Shi* happens.

What part of the SOP says to destroy evidence of the incident? Is that part of the public domain or is that more of a top secret policy?

The Waiting Trophy Man

sapperskunk wrote:

The military doesn't have a shoot first ask questions later policy.

ofcourse not. everything is done professionally and handled with care and carried out with dignity. :rolleyes:

jeffbr

aBoxOfFear wrote:

ofcourse not. everything is done professionally and handled with care and carried out with dignity. :rolleyes:

You said it is policy. Please point me to that policy. Sapperskunk already told you where you can find the rules of engagement. So now you need to tell us where we can find the shoot first policy.

sponger

aBoxOfFear wrote:

to which i respond like this: :rolleyes:

Have you ever been in a gunfight? Ever even been a real street fight? Do you even know how to fight? Can you even imagine what it must be like to be out in the field with bullets whizzing past your head? Can you be certain that instead of picking up your rifle and firing, you wouldn't be urinating in your shorts and crying for your mommy?

I guarantee you've never even been in a situation even remotely resembling those situations. So, again, you dont know what you're talking about.

The Waiting Trophy Man

jeffbr wrote:

You said it is policy. Please point me to that policy. Sapperskunk already told you where you can find the rules of engagement. So now you need to tell us where we can find the shoot first policy.

you're so naive. think what you want.

jeffbr

aBoxOfFear wrote:

you're so naive. think what you want.

Put up or shut up. Show me the policy.

The Waiting Trophy Man

sponger wrote:

Have you ever been in a gunfight? Ever even been a real street fight? Do you even know how to fight? Can you even imagine what it must be like to be out in the field with bullets whizzing past your head? Can you be certain that instead of picking up your rifle and firing, you wouldn't be urinating in your shorts and crying for your mommy?

I guarantee you've never even been in a situation even remotely resembling those situations. So, again, you dont know what you're talking about.

don't give me this poor scared american soldier crap. if they don't want bullets whizzing past their heads then MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T BE INVADING OTHER COUNTRIES AND KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE. i want to insult you so bad, but i'm going to be mature about this.

sponger

aBoxOfFear wrote:

don't give me this poor scared american soldier crap. if they don't want bullets whizzing past their heads then MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T BE INVADING OTHER COUNTRIES AND KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE. i want to insult you so bad, but i'm going to be mature about this.

Yeah, that's what I thought. You just want to hate america and its foreign policy. It has nothing to do with a genuine sympathy for Pat Tillman. The fact that you use the phrase "scared american soldier" just goes to show that you DON't udnerstand the fog of war. All soldiers from every country in every war are scared.

You've got nothing relevant or insightful to say in regards to the subject of this thread. Please stop posting your nonsense.

jlew24asu

sapperskunk wrote:

The military doesn't have a shoot first ask questions later policy. The Rules of Engagement are public domain and you can google them I'm sure. If you can't find them I can tell you the ROE for Iraq or Kosovo during the times of my deployments. Standard Operating Procedures are constantly emplaced and enforced. Shi* happens.

its alot easier for someone who hasnt been in battle to assume whatever they want about america's policy for ROE. i'll take your word over anyone else in this thread. thank you for your service.

The Waiting Trophy Man

sponger wrote:

Yeah, that's what I thought. You just want to hate america and its foreign policy. It has nothing to do with a genuine sympathy for Pat Tillman. The fact that you use the phrase "scared american soldier" just goes to show that you DON't udnerstand the fog of war. All soldiers from every country in every war are scared.

You've got nothing relevant or insightful to say in regards to the subject of this thread. Please stop posting your nonsense.

it's a little late to look sensetive and intelligent now. you already showed your true self. nice try buddy.

sponger

aBoxOfFear wrote:

it's a little late to look sensetive and intelligent now. you already showed your true self. nice try buddy.

LOL. Where did you come up with that? Is that your way of having the last word? My true self? Nice imagination there.

Again, you don't have any points to make. When you do, I'll let you know.

The Waiting Trophy Man

sponger wrote:

LOL. Where did you come up with that? Is that your way of having the last word.

Again, you don't have any points to make. When you do, I'll let you now.

SweetHarmonics

There's just no excusing the cover-up though. That's really the issue at hand, a friendly-fire incident is dicey enough without some scummy cover-up to make it just completely disgusting IMO.

Who ordered the code red?

sapperskunk

aBoxOfFear wrote:

ofcourse not. everything is done professionally and handled with care and carried out with dignity. :rolleyes:

Look man, I'm gonna be totally cool with you, there's shitbags everywhere, I work with shitbags, I go to school with shitbags and I served in the military with shitbags. So for me to say that we're just some noble heroic force would just be bullshit. But that's why we have rules to keep things in check, but unfortunately sometimes the right number of shitbags gather together and something stupid happens (Abu Ghraib).

I don't know what happened to Pat Tillman, you don't know what happened to him, the news doesn't know what happened to him and even the field grade officer conducting the "fractricide" investigation doesn't even know the full story. Even the Rangers on the ground don't know what happened accurately. Intense combat is so amazingly surreal, at some points you feel like your outside of your own body, kind of following yourself along, or like your in a movie, what you experience is so amazing there's no way your imagination could have made that shit up. What these guys sincerely think happened is probably so far from the truth (at no fault of their own) it's not even funny. Like I said, shit happens man. Happy belated Veterans day.

The Waiting Trophy Man

sapperskunk wrote:

Look man, I'm gonna be totally cool with you, there's shitbags everywhere, I work with shitbags, I go to school with shitbags and I served in the military with shitbags. So for me to say that we're just some noble heroic force would just be bullshit. But that's why we have rules to keep things in check, but unfortunately sometimes the right number of shitbags gather together and something stupid happens (Abu Ghraib).

I don't know what happened to Pat Tillman, you don't know what happened to him, the news doesn't know what happened to him and even the field grade officer conducting the "fractricide" investigation doesn't even know the full story. Even the Rangers on the ground don't know what happened accurately. Intense combat is so amazingly surreal, at some points you feel like your outside of your own body, kind of following yourself along, or like your in a movie, what you experience is so amazing there's no way your imagination could have made that shit up. What these guys sincerely think happened is probably so far from the truth (at no fault of their own) it's not even funny. Like I said, shit happens man. Happy belated Veterans day.

good post. and props to you for keeping it cool and avoiding making unnecessary/snide remarks. : )

sapperskunk

aBoxOfFear wrote:

good post. and props to you for keeping it cool and avoiding making unnecessary/snide remarks. : )

No problem bro.

Androgynous Mind

All I know is that all those men and women over in Iraq are there whether we like it or not and our support of them is needed. Whether we are for or against the war, the troops need our prayers and support. It is sad and unfortunate that individuals such as Pat Tillman are tragically killed. Nobody said war is pretty, so all we can do is pray for those over there and pay respect to those who have sacrificed their lives. Pat Tillman was a great American and a fine human being.

Vedderlution_Baby

I don't think this would be such a big deal if the army hadn't used the Tillman story as a recruiting story when they were unsure of what happened.