Spying On Americans (more civil liberties could be stripped)

my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
hopefully the american public is coming out of its fear induced slumber? or maybe not?

Spying on Americans
The New York Times | Editorial

Wednesday 02 May 2007

For more than five years, President Bush authorized government spying on phone calls and e-mail to and from the United States without warrants. He rejected offers from Congress to update the electronic eavesdropping law, and stonewalled every attempt to investigate his spying program.

Suddenly, Mr. Bush is in a hurry. He has submitted a bill that would enact enormous, and enormously dangerous, changes to the 1978 law on eavesdropping. It would undermine the fundamental constitutional principle — over which there can be no negotiation or compromise — that the government must seek an individual warrant before spying on an American or someone living here legally.

To heighten the false urgency, the Bush administration will present this issue, as it has before, as a choice between catching terrorists before they act or blinding the intelligence agencies. But the administration has never offered evidence that the 1978 law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, hampered intelligence gathering after the 9/11 attacks. Mr. Bush simply said the law did not apply to him.

The director of national intelligence, Michael McConnell, said yesterday that the evidence of what is wrong with FISA was too secret to share with all Americans. That’s an all-too-familiar dodge. Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, who is familiar with the president’s spying program, has said that it could have been conducted legally. She even offered some sensible changes for FISA, but the administration and the Republican majority in the last Congress buried her bill.

Mr. Bush’s motivations for submitting this bill now seem obvious. The courts have rejected his claim that 9/11 gave him virtually unchecked powers, and he faces a Democratic majority in Congress that is willing to exercise its oversight responsibilities. That, presumably, is why his bill grants immunity to telecommunications companies that cooperated in five years of illegal eavesdropping. It also strips the power to hear claims against the spying program from all courts except the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which meets in secret.

According to the administration, the bill contains “long overdue” FISA modifications to account for changes in technology. The only example it offered was that an e-mail sent from one foreign country to another that happened to go through a computer in the United States might otherwise be missed. But Senator Feinstein had already included this fix in the bill Mr. Bush rejected.

Moreover, FISA has been updated dozens of times in the last 29 years. In 2000, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden, who ran the National Security Agency then, said it “does not require amendment to accommodate new communications technologies.” And since 9/11, FISA has had six major amendments.

The measure would not update FISA; it would gut it. It would allow the government to collect vast amounts of data at will from American citizens’ e-mail and phone calls. The Center for National Security Studies said it might even be read to permit video surveillance without a warrant.

This is a dishonest measure, dishonestly presented, and Congress should reject it. Before making any new laws, Congress has to get to the truth about Mr. Bush’s spying program. (When asked at a Senate hearing yesterday if Mr. Bush still claims to have the power to ignore FISA when he thinks it is necessary, Mr. McConnell refused to answer.)

With clear answers — rather than fearmongering and stonewalling — there can finally be a real debate about amending FISA. It’s not clear whether that can happen under this president. Mr. Bush long ago lost all credibility in the area where this law lies: at the fulcrum of the balance between national security and civil liberties.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/02/opinion/02wed1.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
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  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Administration Pulls Back on Surveillance Agreement
    By James Risen
    The New York Times

    Wednesday 02 May 2007

    Washington - Senior Bush administration officials told Congress on Tuesday that they could not pledge that the administration would continue to seek warrants from a secret court for a domestic wiretapping program, as it agreed to do in January.

    Rather, they argued that the president had the constitutional authority to decide for himself whether to conduct surveillance without warrants.

    As a result of the January agreement, the administration said that the National Security Agency’s domestic spying program has been brought under the legal structure laid out in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which requires court-approved warrants for the wiretapping of American citizens and others inside the United States.

    But on Tuesday, the senior officials, including Michael McConnell, the new director of national intelligence, said they believed that the president still had the authority under Article II of the Constitution to once again order the N.S.A. to conduct surveillance inside the country without warrants.

    During a hearing Tuesday of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mr. McConnell was asked by Senator Russ Feingold, Democrat of Wisconsin, whether he could promise that the administration would no longer sidestep the court when seeking warrants.

    “Sir, the president’s authority under Article II is in the Constitution,” Mr. McConnell said. “So if the president chose to exercise Article II authority, that would be the president’s call.”

    The administration had earlier argued that both the president’s inherent executive powers under Article II of the Constitution, as well as the September 2001 Congressional authorization to use military force against Al Qaeda, provided him with the power to conduct surveillance without warrants.

    Mr. McConnell emphasized that all domestic electronic surveillance was now being conducted with court-approved warrants, and said that there were no plans “that we are formulating or thinking about currently” to resume domestic wiretapping without warrants.

    “But I’d just highlight,” he said, “Article II is Article II, so in a different circumstance, I can’t speak for the president what he might decide.”

    The exchange came as the administration is seeking new legislation to update the surveillance act to expand the government’s surveillance powers, in part to deal with vast changes in communications technology since 1978, when the measure was enacted.

    The White House says that the outmoded rules embedded in the law mean that the government cannot eavesdrop on some telephone calls, e-mail and other communications that do not involve Americans or impinge on the privacy rights of people inside the United States.

    While administration officials, citing national security concerns, have declined to discuss publicly what communications gaps they wish to plug, their proposed legislation seems designed to single out so-called “transit traffic,” purely international telephone calls and e-mail that go from one foreign country to another, but happen to be digitally routed through the United States telecommunications system.

    The administration’s proposal would also provide legal immunity for telecommunications companies that cooperated with the National Security Agency’s surveillance program without warrants before it was brought under the surveillance act in January. It would also provide legal protections for government workers who took part in the N.S.A. program.

    Several Democratic lawmakers expressed frustration on Tuesday that the administration had not provided documents related to the National Security Agency program, which the White House called the Terrorist Surveillance Program. They suggested that they would be reluctant to agree to a change in the surveillance law without more information from the White House.

    “To this day, we have never been provided the presidential authorization that cleared that program to go or the attorney general-Department of Justice opinions that declared it to be lawful,” said Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island. “Where’s the transparency as to the presidential authorizations for this closed program? That’s a pretty big ‘we’re not going to tell you’ in this new atmosphere of trust we’re trying to build.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/02/washington/02intel.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1178215938-5ZzFQ5RL4cTEY1uP9408YQ
  • Storm the Whitehouse....burn it down...

    that's probably what's it going to take with this asshole...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Storm the Whitehouse....burn it down...

    no need to burn it down, peaceful resistance is the answer, IMO.

    education, knowledge, organization, and peaceful action are the answer, IMO
  • my2hands wrote:
    no need to burn it down, peaceful resistance is the answer, IMO.

    education, knowledge, organization, and peaceful action are the answer, IMO

    There's lot's of time for peace afterwards... :D
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    yeah, there's no reason for impeachment :rolleyes:

    keep your head down and just keep movin along like good little pets
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • Bush should be immediately dragged out of the oval office by his feet to the nearest jail cell to await trial.

    Everyone is so passive...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • sicnevolsicnevol Posts: 180
    Bush should be immediately dragged out of the oval office by his feet to the nearest jail cell to await trial.

    Everyone is so passive...
    and beaten with one of his ugly ties
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    kabong and friends..

    my quiestion is exactly who would run the whitehouse if impeachment is eminent?



    me been thinking that it's not in the white house where humans need to target. me thinks it's time to reform corporations. that's where all the problems really hide. it always seems that passive actions are exactly passive without result. but why couldn't people demand reforms concerning corporate influeince in politics. it concerns me that the term laizesse faire has been wiped out of vocablulary.

    and i might add before humans get on a bandwagon for change, it might be best to consider that change can be best when applied locally (how intimate term, locally means to an individual is relative ofcourse). it starts within.

    take good care and give love and peacefulness
    all insanity:
    a derivitive of nature.
    nature is god
    god is love
    love is light
  • sicnevol wrote:
    and beaten with one of his ugly ties

    AHAAHAAAAAHAHA! Good one!

    Zing! lol... :D
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • melodious wrote:
    kabong and friends..

    my quiestion is exactly who would run the whitehouse if impeachment is eminent?



    me been thinking that it's not in the white house where humans need to target. me thinks it's time to reform corporations. that's where all the problems really hide. it always seems that passive actions are exactly passive without result. but why couldn't people demand reforms concerning corporate influeince in politics. it concerns me that the term laizesse faire has been wiped out of vocablulary.

    and i might add before humans get on a bandwagon for change, it might be best to consider that change can be best when applied locally (how intimate term, locally means to an individual is relative ofcourse). it starts within.

    take good care and give love and peacefulness

    Solution? Election one year early with existing candidates.

    You are right about the corporation situation. Easy enough to cure..People have to start thinking about where they drop there money. Spending money is like voting all the time.

    Spend wisely.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • SundaySilenceSundaySilence Posts: 536
    Spending money is like voting all the time.

    Someone is stuffing the ballot box.
  • spiral outspiral out Posts: 1,052
    melodious wrote:
    kabong and friends..

    my quiestion is exactly who would run the whitehouse if impeachment is eminent?



    me been thinking that it's not in the white house where humans need to target. me thinks it's time to reform corporations. that's where all the problems really hide. it always seems that passive actions are exactly passive without result. but why couldn't people demand reforms concerning corporate influeince in politics. it concerns me that the term laizesse faire has been wiped out of vocablulary.

    and i might add before humans get on a bandwagon for change, it might be best to consider that change can be best when applied locally (how intimate term, locally means to an individual is relative ofcourse). it starts within.

    take good care and give love and peacefulness

    Yes it does seem as if corporations have far to much power theses days. And the people don't stand up and try to stop them.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    You are right about the corporation situation. Easy enough to cure..People have to start thinking about where they drop there money. Spending money is like voting all the time.

    Spend wisely.
    I agree totally... and I think this is something that needs to be highlighted to a much larger extent. I think quite a few young people are aware but the average housewife (probably the biggest proportion of shoppers), does she really care? Her priorities are cost and location... chain stores are usually in better locations and cater for the average housewife... and because they order so much bulk they can sell cheaper. So how do we get around THIS? It's alright for you and I... The little I spend in shops won't cause any CEO's to lose any sleep... and I wouldn't like to be the one to encourage a struggling housewife to spend more in order to shop guilt free.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • BraighniBraighni Posts: 58
    There's lot's of time for peace afterwards... :D


    Made be think of this old quote.

    “We practice selective annihilation of mayors and government officials for example to create a vacuum, then we fill that vacuum, as popular war advances, peace is closer”
    www.baddog.ie
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Braighni wrote:
    Made be think of this old quote.

    “We practice selective annihilation of mayors and government officials for example to create a vacuum, then we fill that vacuum, as popular war advances, peace is closer”

    I don't need your civil war
    It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
    Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
    In a human grocery store
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    my2hands wrote:
    no need to burn it down, peaceful resistance is the answer, IMO.

    education, knowledge, organization, and peaceful action are the answer, IMO
    If you can think of a peaceful way of overthowing the Bush Administration, let's hear it. Because we need to do it.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    melodious wrote:
    kabong and friends..

    my quiestion is exactly who would run the whitehouse if impeachment is eminent?



    me been thinking that it's not in the white house where humans need to target. me thinks it's time to reform corporations. that's where all the problems really hide. it always seems that passive actions are exactly passive without result. but why couldn't people demand reforms concerning corporate influeince in politics. it concerns me that the term laizesse faire has been wiped out of vocablulary.

    and i might add before humans get on a bandwagon for change, it might be best to consider that change can be best when applied locally (how intimate term, locally means to an individual is relative ofcourse). it starts within.

    take good care and give love and peacefulness

    1. people in power need to be held accountable

    2. you are absolutely correct about corporate control of this country, and quite frankly this planet.

    a good friend of ours said it pretty well... "corporations rule the day" ~~ ev
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Jeanwah wrote:
    If you can think of a peaceful way of overthowing the Bush Administration, let's hear it. Because we need to do it.


    we already are...
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    my2hands wrote:
    we already are...
    In what way? I'm serious, Bush and co. are walking all over us; protesting only does so much when the dink in charge refuses to hear. Democrats are being sissys. There needs to be action, i.e. revolution.
  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    public protest only does the job for them..i mean haven't ya all heard of entrapment..one fool thinks to arrange great protests, and then the man has you all lasooed together, for arrests..some go to jail, some go to the penn...some get deported and put in pen until ........

    the twelfth of never....

    peace begins within.
    all insanity:
    a derivitive of nature.
    nature is god
    god is love
    love is light
  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    chopitdown wrote:
    I don't need your civil war
    It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
    Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
    In a human grocery store
    and so how can you make a change within yourself to make peace not war? they reformed welfare; they put all $ in a coffer and call it homeland security and now watch college campuses' and universities specialize in publicc security...

    i am watching this happen at my community college as you speak....

    and i bet homeland security is non profit corporation...more...more...control...

    us and them.
    all insanity:
    a derivitive of nature.
    nature is god
    god is love
    love is light
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