Repression and cruelty like this is sad, but unfortunetly we do not have a right to dictate how these government rule over their people. We can encourage them to embrace a more civilized way to operate. We can even cut all diplomatic and economic ties with them in protest, but we can not dictate how they act. Secondly, while the current administration constantly denounces the way the Iranian government oppresses it's people, you hardly hear a word out of them when it comes to the actions of the Saudi government which is by far worse that the Iranians.
I was thking about this Mammasan. Besides the obvious reason that we need the Saudi's oil, they don't have a standing army.
If you think about it, the US would be stupid to cut ties with the Saudi's in order to force change. It's not like we would have to survive without their exports of fine wine, cheese and luxury automobiles. No, the Saudis have the most precious commodity on earth and if we couldn't get it, the US economy would crumble. Basically we are fucked, and we fucked ourselves. Actually the oil complanies fucked us in the 60's and 70's by buying off congress and not allowing inovation in the field of alternative energy. If we had of done that, we wouldn't need Middle Eastern oil by now. Maybe there is more blood on the hands of the oil execs than anybody else's???
I was thking about this Mammasan. Besides the obvious reason that we need the Saudi's oil, they don't have a standing army.
If you think about it, the US would be stupid to cut ties with the Saudi's in order to force change. It's not like we would have to survive without their exports of fine wine, cheese and luxury automobiles. No, the Saudis have the most precious commodity on earth and if we couldn't get it, the US economy would crumble. Basically we are fucked, and we fucked ourselves. Actually the oil complanies fucked us in the 60's and 70's by buying off congress and not allowing inovation in the field of alternative energy. If we had of done that, we wouldn't need Middle Eastern oil by now. Maybe there is more blood on the hands of the oil execs than anybody else's???
I understand that when it comes to Saudi Arabia we pretty much have our hands bound. They hold a lot of leverage over us because of their oil reserves and our need for oil. It is this relationship though that causes to loose a lot of credibility in the region. You average muslim living in the Middle East knows that the Al Sa'uds are a bunch of crooked bastards. They know that while they impose sharia laws on their own people they live an opulant life of decedence. Our unwqvering support of the Saudi government, and again I understand why this has to be, is hurting us tremendously.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
A SAUDI court has more than doubled the number of lashes that a female rape victim was sentenced to last year after her lawyer appealed against the original sentence. The decision, which many lawyers found shocking even by Saudi standards of justice, has provoked a rare public debate about the treatment of women.
The victim's lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, a human rights activist, drew the court's ire because of his strong public criticism of the handling of the case. He has called his client's conviction unjust and said the sentences of the seven men who raped her were too lenient.
He is also known for his past defence of critics of the monarchy.
The victim, who was 19 at the time and whose name has not been released, was raped about 18 months ago in Qatif, a city in the Eastern Province.
Her case has been widely debated since the court sentenced her to 90 lashes a year ago for being in the same car as an unrelated man, even after it ruled she had subsequently been raped. For a woman to be alone with a man who is not her husband or a relative is a crime in Saudi Arabia, whose legal code is based on a strict Wahabi interpretation of Islamic law.
Adding to the charged political nature of the case, the victim is a member of the kingdom's Shiite Muslim minority.
Mr Lahem's licence to practice law has been suspended and he is facing a hearing before a Ministry of Justice disciplinary committee on December 5 in Riyadh for appearing regularly on television and talking about the case.
Judges of the Qatif General Court have accused him of trying to tarnish the court's image by talking to the media.
The woman's offence was meeting a former boyfriend, who she had asked to return pictures he had of her because she was about to marry another man. The couple were sitting in a car when a group of seven men kidnapped them and raped them both, lawyers in the case told the Arab News.
The woman and the former boyfriend were originally sentenced to 90 lashes each for being together in private. The attackers received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison, and 80 to 1000 lashes each.
Mr Lahem appealed against the attackers' sentences, saying they were too lenient and that the treatment of the victim was too harsh. In its decision issued on Tuesday, the court increased the victim's sentence to 200 lashes and six months in jail. It also increased the sentences of her attackers to prison terms of two to nine years. The woman remains free for the time being and has not yet been lashed.
"I don't agree with this judgment," Bassem Alim, a lawyer in Jeddah, said of the woman's sentence. "I think it's overly severe. She should not be punished for going to the media and explaining her case." Dr Alim, a friend of the victim's lawyer, said the standard punishment for adultery was 60 to 80 lashes, so the sentence was unusually harsh, even for Saudi Arabia.
Abeer Mishkhas, a columnist who writes frequently about women's rights, wrote in Arab News that the woman seemed to have been singled out for particularly draconian treatment.
King Abdullah last month approved new laws regulating the judicial system, which rules on the basis of sharia, or Islamic law.
You mean the article about Iran cracking down on things like dress code, haricuts and not mixing at parties?
yeah... same thing as a victim of a gang rape getting jailed for being raped... :rolleyes:
No, they are comparable. The women isn't being jailed and whipped becuase she was raped. She's receiving that punishment becuase alone in a car with a male that was a non-relative. That is her offense - not getting raped.
And so being alone with a member of the opposite sex is pretty much along the same lines of stupid religous laws such as not wearing the proper dress, listening to Western music, etc...
So my question is this... to all those that say "who are we to judge other cultures", why is it that we can't judge when things like this happen?
Because their laws make absolutely no fucking sense to anyone with even half a wit, it is safe to say, or politically correct to assume they are less inteligent than the rest of the world?
No, they are comparable. The women isn't being jailed and whipped becuase she was raped. She's receiving that punishment becuase alone in a car with a male that was a non-relative. That is her offense - not getting raped.
And so being alone with a member of the opposite sex is pretty much along the same lines of stupid religous laws such as not wearing the proper dress, listening to Western music, etc...
So my question is this... to all those that say "who are we to judge other cultures", why is it that we can't judge when things like this happen?
We can definitely judge them. I think what most people are trying to say is that we have no right to impose our beliefs on them.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
So my question is this... to all those that say "who are we to judge other cultures", why is it that we can't judge when things like this happen?
I think you can judge other cultures all you want, like they (can) judge us, but that doesn't mean you're right.
Of course, in this case I think we (= western world) are right. I think the declaration of human rights was one of the highest, if not the highest human achievement so I am definitely appalled by cases like this one. But other things like the clothes which the women are required to wear, chopping off hands... if the people themselves want these things, which isn't really unusual, who are we indeed to say it's wrong. If they really believe that losing their hand is a just punishment because it's the punishment their god chose for that crime and they consider it a part of their religion, I don't think I or anyone else should say they cannot do it. However, if they force these cruel punishments upon people who do not agree with these laws, who believe these rules and guidelines are outdated and in the present context backward, I think we (people in general) should try to prevent or stop them from doing so.
Well,it's good to know they stick to their principles... http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/flogging-of-saudi-gang-rape-girl-to-go-ahead-1230418.html
On a related note,if Turkey joins the EU I'm committing suicide or moving to America rather than inviting these barbaric cultures into our countries.We have nothing in common with Islamic countries(by we I mean Europe and America)and I don't think it's worth the hassle of trying to bring them around to our way of thinking.
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
Well,it's good to know they stick to their principles... http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/flogging-of-saudi-gang-rape-girl-to-go-ahead-1230418.html
On a related note,if Turkey joins the EU I'm committing suicide or moving to America rather than inviting these barbaric cultures into our countries.We have nothing in common with Islamic countries(by we I mean Europe and America)and I don't think it's worth the hassle of trying to bring them around to our way of thinking.
Why should bring them around to our way of thinking. That is their country and their culture and regardless of how barbaric we may think it is it is not within our power or right to change that.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Why should bring them around to our way of thinking. That is their country and their culture and regardless of how barbaric we may think it is it is not within our power or right to change that.
By that logic we shouldn't punish criminals either since that is their way of thinking,doing so would be against their individual choice to commit crimes.....the only flaw in that is that allowing these people to commit evil leads to the evil being commited at the expense of innocent people such as the woman in this story.This is not a case of me trying to impose my values and beliefs on someone else purely for the heck of it,this is about treating human beings fairly and justly.
If you got gang raped by seven men would you simply accept being punished for it as a just punishment simply because of your culture?The fact of the matter is that Muslims are increasingly trying to stick their nose in our business and trying to change our culture,look at the riots over the Mohammed cartoons,if anything we're the ones being bullied and repressed in terms of being allowed to express what we believe in.Islam is growing in Europe and becoming more vocal,if Turkey joins the EU it will be a disaster for Europe and the world.That's why we have to speak up against evil like the scumbags who are carrying out this punishment,because before we know it it's going to be the type of barbarism we can expect to be practised in our society.This story wouldn't have got this much worldwide attention had it happened years ago but people are so sick of Muslims thinking they are morally superior to everyone in the West that it's about time their own faults were exposed.
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
By that logic we shouldn't punish criminals either since that is their way of thinking,doing so would be against their individual choice to commit crimes.....the only flaw in that is that allowing these people to commit evil leads to the evil being commited at the expense of innocent people such as the woman in this story.This is not a case of me trying to impose my values and beliefs on someone else purely for the heck of it,this is about treating human beings fairly and justly.
If you got gang raped by seven men would you simply accept being punished for it as a just punishment simply because of your culture?The fact of the matter is that Muslims are increasingly trying to stick their nose in our business and trying to change our culture,look at the riots over the Mohammed cartoons,if anything we're the ones being bullied and repressed in terms of being allowed to express what we believe in.Islam is growing in Europe and becoming more vocal,if Turkey joins the EU it will be a disaster for Europe and the world.That's why we have to speak up against evil like the scumbags who are carrying out this punishment,because before we know it it's going to be the type of barbarism we can expect to be practised in our society.This story wouldn't have got this much worldwide attention had it happened years ago but people are so sick of Muslims thinking they are morally superior to everyone in the West that it's about time their own faults were exposed.
No it's not the same. Criminals breaks laws in our country so they are prosecuted for doing so. The laws in Saudi Arabia, as fucked up as they are, have to abided by the people. We, as non-Saudies, have no right to tell them how they should run their country or to force them to abide to the manner in which we believe they should run their country.
I feel terribly sorry for that woman and believe that the manner in which her government is treating her is horrible, but those are the laws of Saudi Arabia and it is up to the citizens of Saudi Arabia to force their government to change those laws not us.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
By that logic we shouldn't punish criminals either since that is their way of thinking,doing so would be against their individual choice to commit crimes.....the only flaw in that is that allowing these people to commit evil leads to the evil being commited at the expense of innocent people such as the woman in this story.This is not a case of me trying to impose my values and beliefs on someone else purely for the heck of it,this is about treating human beings fairly and justly.
If you got gang raped by seven men would you simply accept being punished for it as a just punishment simply because of your culture?The fact of the matter is that Muslims are increasingly trying to stick their nose in our business and trying to change our culture,look at the riots over the Mohammed cartoons,if anything we're the ones being bullied and repressed in terms of being allowed to express what we believe in.Islam is growing in Europe and becoming more vocal,if Turkey joins the EU it will be a disaster for Europe and the world.That's why we have to speak up against evil like the scumbags who are carrying out this punishment,because before we know it it's going to be the type of barbarism we can expect to be practised in our society.This story wouldn't have got this much worldwide attention had it happened years ago but people are so sick of Muslims thinking they are morally superior to everyone in the West that it's about time their own faults were exposed.
Thanks for generalising, it only makes you look more foolish.
Western culture being bullied and repressed by Muslims? Are you serious? It's not the West that has fucked with that region for the past 2 centuries. No no they haven't been going there continuously bombing the shit out of them. Its blasphemy if they complain. Of course after all they did bloody protest a cartoon. Yes please sook about a cartoon while more Iraqi children get blown to bits.
Before you start yapping about things you should get your facts straight. Even though the punishment is heinous, she isn't being punished because she was raped. She is being punished because she has committed adultery with the man she was in the car with and she has admitted to it. As full of shit they might be, its their laws if you don't like it don't live there, if you can't leave don't break the laws.
It seems as though you have a personal vendetta against the Turks. I think you should read up more about the country before you continue. You walk in Istanbul in the middle of Ramadan and people are eating on the streets. These are some of the first Muslims to sign a peace treaty with Israel. The only problem for the EU when it comes to signing in Turkey is economical. But hey it wasn't a problem to sign poor Eastern European countries. Is it cause they are white? Shit man I think you need to kick the Spanish and Italians out of there!
No, they are comparable. The women isn't being jailed and whipped becuase she was raped. She's receiving that punishment becuase alone in a car with a male that was a non-relative. That is her offense - not getting raped.
And so being alone with a member of the opposite sex is pretty much along the same lines of stupid religous laws such as not wearing the proper dress, listening to Western music, etc...
So my question is this... to all those that say "who are we to judge other cultures", why is it that we can't judge when things like this happen?
i judge stupidity everywhere i see it. there are many christians around here who ask why i single jesus-loers out for disdain but not muslims. let this show them wrong. i am equally critical of disgustingly outdated islamic practices. there is also a huge gulf between not judging another's beliefs and way of life and being critical of injustice. if people want to not read harry potter becos it's satanic, or want to wear that funky get-up burkha, that's on them. but when it comes to things like lashing rape victims and depriving gays of equal rights, that's going too far. basically, you can live by whatever code you want, but when your code ceases to be voluntary and becomes the law of the land backed by violence against those who subscribe to a different code, you are in the wrong.
Thanks for generalising, it only makes you look more foolish.
Western culture being bullied and repressed by Muslims? Are you serious? It's not the West that has fucked with that region for the past 2 centuries. No no they haven't been going there continuously bombing the shit out of them. Its blasphemy if they complain. Of course after all they did bloody protest a cartoon. Yes please sook about a cartoon while more Iraqi children get blown to bits.
Before you start yapping about things you should get your facts straight. Even though the punishment is heinous, she isn't being punished because she was raped. She is being punished because she has committed adultery with the man she was in the car with and she has admitted to it. As full of shit they might be, its their laws if you don't like it don't live there, if you can't leave don't break the laws.
It seems as though you have a personal vendetta against the Turks. I think you should read up more about the country before you continue. You walk in Istanbul in the middle of Ramadan and people are eating on the streets. These are some of the first Muslims to sign a peace treaty with Israel. The only problem for the EU when it comes to signing in Turkey is economical. But hey it wasn't a problem to sign poor Eastern European countries. Is it cause they are white? Shit man I think you need to kick the Spanish and Italians out of there!
Well said. It seems obvious that his problem is not simply with the treatment of this one particular woman but with Muslims in general.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
"...But the victim was also punished for violating Saudi Arabia's laws on segregation that forbid unrelated men and women from associating with each other. She was initially sentenced to 90 lashes for being in the car of a strange man.
On appeal, the Arab News reported that the punishment was not reduced but increased to 200 lashes and a six-month prison sentence. ...."
My husband, who is a moderate muslim, wonders why the rapists weren't sentenced to death, as he says that is the written punishment for rape. To me this shows selective enforcement of shariah, being much harder on a somewhat defenseless woman, than on men. I don't agree with islam (we agree to disagree) but he has a point.
R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
My husband, who is a moderate muslim, wonders why the rapists weren't sentenced to death, as he says that is the written punishment for rape. To me this shows selective enforcement of shariah, being much harder on a somewhat defenseless woman, than on men. I don't agree with islam (we agree to disagree) but he has a point.
what do you mean by "don't agree with islam"? the whole religion? or just the sharia law thing? im just curious how youd' work around that in a marriage. it seems like it would be quite a sticking point.
My husband, who is a moderate muslim, wonders why the rapists weren't sentenced to death, as he says that is the written punishment for rape. To me this shows selective enforcement of shariah, being much harder on a somewhat defenseless woman, than on men. I don't agree with islam (we agree to disagree) but he has a point.
Let me start by stating once again that I highly disagree with the punishments.
The reason why the attackers were not sentenced to death was because there was lack of evidence. The most of the defense was based on what the woman and man had stated. There was also a lack of witnesses. I say it is damn good to convict 7 people to up to 9 years based on what a victim says. I have seen rapists and child abusers in Western countries with mounting evidence on them being released on a technicality or given suspended sentences. Where is the justice in that?
It is only recently that Australia has introduced amendments that allows a rape victim to give her testimony by video. They have also introduced "an agreement" that stops defense lawyers from badgering a rape victim. I say its about time. Just recently there was an article about a 15 year old girl suspected of stealing being put in a jail cell with 20 men in Brazil. She was raped relentlessly. That was not an isolated case.
Finally, you should watch the interview with the husband of the woman and what he says about the treatment of women in his culture. IF THIS WAS A CASE AGAINST DEFENSELESS WOMEN THEN THE GUY IN THE CAR WITH HER WHO WAS ALSO RAPED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CONVICTED AND PUNISHED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
I repeat once again, because of the final statement it is only logical that one could assume it is fundamentally Shi'ite persecution in a Sunni dominant country than it is about a woman.
I feel no remorse for when people get popped smoking pot, drunk driving, jay walking, spitting on the sidewalk, etc. So why should a story like this from a country like this shock or even make me feel bad or think something should be done. There are rules in the country and when you break them they pay the price. As for the rape it seems to happen quite a bit over there. Whether it is their own women or nannies who don't speak the language looking to make money. As OJ said, "it happens".
Are you serious?
Just because you had the misfortune of being born in a country with crazy unjust laws does not mean that you agreed to abide by them.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Thank you. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who realised that. I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of a reply but it was starting to irritate me.
No problem. I find that way too many people base their opinions of Islam on the actions of corrupt governments, such as the Saudies, or extremist like Bin Laden. The majority of Muslims are good decent people who simply want to live their lives in peace. To judge all of them based on the actions of a small minority just shows their ignorance.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Let me start by stating once again that I highly disagree with the punishments.
The reason why the attackers were not sentenced to death was because there was lack of evidence. The most of the defense was based on what the woman and man had stated. There was also a lack of witnesses. I say it is damn good to convict 7 people to up to 9 years based on what a victim says. I have seen rapists and child abusers in Western countries with mounting evidence on them being released on a technicality or given suspended sentences. Where is the justice in that?
It is only recently that Australia has introduced amendments that allows a rape victim to give her testimony by video. They have also introduced "an agreement" that stops defense lawyers from badgering a rape victim. I say its about time. Just recently there was an article about a 15 year old girl suspected of stealing being put in a jail cell with 20 men in Brazil. She was raped relentlessly. That was not an isolated case.
Finally, you should watch the interview with the husband of the woman and what he says about the treatment of women in his culture. IF THIS WAS A CASE AGAINST DEFENSELESS WOMEN THEN THE GUY IN THE CAR WITH HER WHO WAS ALSO RAPED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CONVICTED AND PUNISHED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
I repeat once again, because of the final statement it is only logical that one could assume it is fundamentally Shi'ite persecution in a Sunni dominant country than it is about a woman.
some good points. *clap* *clap*
----
on another note, americam money and guns is whats keeping the saudi in arabia. Would be great to see the saudis lose power.
what do you mean by "don't agree with islam"? the whole religion? or just the sharia law thing? im just curious how youd' work around that in a marriage. it seems like it would be quite a sticking point.
That is a different topic, and not the subject of this thread, and definitely none of your business. I only shared what I did as background for my comments.
R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
Comments
I was thking about this Mammasan. Besides the obvious reason that we need the Saudi's oil, they don't have a standing army.
If you think about it, the US would be stupid to cut ties with the Saudi's in order to force change. It's not like we would have to survive without their exports of fine wine, cheese and luxury automobiles. No, the Saudis have the most precious commodity on earth and if we couldn't get it, the US economy would crumble. Basically we are fucked, and we fucked ourselves. Actually the oil complanies fucked us in the 60's and 70's by buying off congress and not allowing inovation in the field of alternative energy. If we had of done that, we wouldn't need Middle Eastern oil by now. Maybe there is more blood on the hands of the oil execs than anybody else's???
I understand that when it comes to Saudi Arabia we pretty much have our hands bound. They hold a lot of leverage over us because of their oil reserves and our need for oil. It is this relationship though that causes to loose a lot of credibility in the region. You average muslim living in the Middle East knows that the Al Sa'uds are a bunch of crooked bastards. They know that while they impose sharia laws on their own people they live an opulant life of decedence. Our unwqvering support of the Saudi government, and again I understand why this has to be, is hurting us tremendously.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rape-victims-harsh-sentence-shocks-saudis/2007/11/16/1194766968246.html
Rape victim's harsh sentence shocks Saudis
November 17, 2007
A SAUDI court has more than doubled the number of lashes that a female rape victim was sentenced to last year after her lawyer appealed against the original sentence. The decision, which many lawyers found shocking even by Saudi standards of justice, has provoked a rare public debate about the treatment of women.
The victim's lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, a human rights activist, drew the court's ire because of his strong public criticism of the handling of the case. He has called his client's conviction unjust and said the sentences of the seven men who raped her were too lenient.
He is also known for his past defence of critics of the monarchy.
The victim, who was 19 at the time and whose name has not been released, was raped about 18 months ago in Qatif, a city in the Eastern Province.
Her case has been widely debated since the court sentenced her to 90 lashes a year ago for being in the same car as an unrelated man, even after it ruled she had subsequently been raped. For a woman to be alone with a man who is not her husband or a relative is a crime in Saudi Arabia, whose legal code is based on a strict Wahabi interpretation of Islamic law.
Adding to the charged political nature of the case, the victim is a member of the kingdom's Shiite Muslim minority.
Mr Lahem's licence to practice law has been suspended and he is facing a hearing before a Ministry of Justice disciplinary committee on December 5 in Riyadh for appearing regularly on television and talking about the case.
Judges of the Qatif General Court have accused him of trying to tarnish the court's image by talking to the media.
The woman's offence was meeting a former boyfriend, who she had asked to return pictures he had of her because she was about to marry another man. The couple were sitting in a car when a group of seven men kidnapped them and raped them both, lawyers in the case told the Arab News.
The woman and the former boyfriend were originally sentenced to 90 lashes each for being together in private. The attackers received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison, and 80 to 1000 lashes each.
Mr Lahem appealed against the attackers' sentences, saying they were too lenient and that the treatment of the victim was too harsh. In its decision issued on Tuesday, the court increased the victim's sentence to 200 lashes and six months in jail. It also increased the sentences of her attackers to prison terms of two to nine years. The woman remains free for the time being and has not yet been lashed.
"I don't agree with this judgment," Bassem Alim, a lawyer in Jeddah, said of the woman's sentence. "I think it's overly severe. She should not be punished for going to the media and explaining her case." Dr Alim, a friend of the victim's lawyer, said the standard punishment for adultery was 60 to 80 lashes, so the sentence was unusually harsh, even for Saudi Arabia.
Abeer Mishkhas, a columnist who writes frequently about women's rights, wrote in Arab News that the woman seemed to have been singled out for particularly draconian treatment.
King Abdullah last month approved new laws regulating the judicial system, which rules on the basis of sharia, or Islamic law.
No, they are comparable. The women isn't being jailed and whipped becuase she was raped. She's receiving that punishment becuase alone in a car with a male that was a non-relative. That is her offense - not getting raped.
And so being alone with a member of the opposite sex is pretty much along the same lines of stupid religous laws such as not wearing the proper dress, listening to Western music, etc...
So my question is this... to all those that say "who are we to judge other cultures", why is it that we can't judge when things like this happen?
We can definitely judge them. I think what most people are trying to say is that we have no right to impose our beliefs on them.
I think you can judge other cultures all you want, like they (can) judge us, but that doesn't mean you're right.
Of course, in this case I think we (= western world) are right. I think the declaration of human rights was one of the highest, if not the highest human achievement so I am definitely appalled by cases like this one. But other things like the clothes which the women are required to wear, chopping off hands... if the people themselves want these things, which isn't really unusual, who are we indeed to say it's wrong. If they really believe that losing their hand is a just punishment because it's the punishment their god chose for that crime and they consider it a part of their religion, I don't think I or anyone else should say they cannot do it. However, if they force these cruel punishments upon people who do not agree with these laws, who believe these rules and guidelines are outdated and in the present context backward, I think we (people in general) should try to prevent or stop them from doing so.
naděje umírá poslední
On a related note,if Turkey joins the EU I'm committing suicide or moving to America rather than inviting these barbaric cultures into our countries.We have nothing in common with Islamic countries(by we I mean Europe and America)and I don't think it's worth the hassle of trying to bring them around to our way of thinking.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
www.bebo.com/pearljam06
Why should bring them around to our way of thinking. That is their country and their culture and regardless of how barbaric we may think it is it is not within our power or right to change that.
By that logic we shouldn't punish criminals either since that is their way of thinking,doing so would be against their individual choice to commit crimes.....the only flaw in that is that allowing these people to commit evil leads to the evil being commited at the expense of innocent people such as the woman in this story.This is not a case of me trying to impose my values and beliefs on someone else purely for the heck of it,this is about treating human beings fairly and justly.
If you got gang raped by seven men would you simply accept being punished for it as a just punishment simply because of your culture?The fact of the matter is that Muslims are increasingly trying to stick their nose in our business and trying to change our culture,look at the riots over the Mohammed cartoons,if anything we're the ones being bullied and repressed in terms of being allowed to express what we believe in.Islam is growing in Europe and becoming more vocal,if Turkey joins the EU it will be a disaster for Europe and the world.That's why we have to speak up against evil like the scumbags who are carrying out this punishment,because before we know it it's going to be the type of barbarism we can expect to be practised in our society.This story wouldn't have got this much worldwide attention had it happened years ago but people are so sick of Muslims thinking they are morally superior to everyone in the West that it's about time their own faults were exposed.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
www.bebo.com/pearljam06
No it's not the same. Criminals breaks laws in our country so they are prosecuted for doing so. The laws in Saudi Arabia, as fucked up as they are, have to abided by the people. We, as non-Saudies, have no right to tell them how they should run their country or to force them to abide to the manner in which we believe they should run their country.
I feel terribly sorry for that woman and believe that the manner in which her government is treating her is horrible, but those are the laws of Saudi Arabia and it is up to the citizens of Saudi Arabia to force their government to change those laws not us.
Thanks for generalising, it only makes you look more foolish.
Western culture being bullied and repressed by Muslims? Are you serious? It's not the West that has fucked with that region for the past 2 centuries. No no they haven't been going there continuously bombing the shit out of them. Its blasphemy if they complain. Of course after all they did bloody protest a cartoon. Yes please sook about a cartoon while more Iraqi children get blown to bits.
Before you start yapping about things you should get your facts straight. Even though the punishment is heinous, she isn't being punished because she was raped. She is being punished because she has committed adultery with the man she was in the car with and she has admitted to it. As full of shit they might be, its their laws if you don't like it don't live there, if you can't leave don't break the laws.
It seems as though you have a personal vendetta against the Turks. I think you should read up more about the country before you continue. You walk in Istanbul in the middle of Ramadan and people are eating on the streets. These are some of the first Muslims to sign a peace treaty with Israel. The only problem for the EU when it comes to signing in Turkey is economical. But hey it wasn't a problem to sign poor Eastern European countries. Is it cause they are white? Shit man I think you need to kick the Spanish and Italians out of there!
i judge stupidity everywhere i see it. there are many christians around here who ask why i single jesus-loers out for disdain but not muslims. let this show them wrong. i am equally critical of disgustingly outdated islamic practices. there is also a huge gulf between not judging another's beliefs and way of life and being critical of injustice. if people want to not read harry potter becos it's satanic, or want to wear that funky get-up burkha, that's on them. but when it comes to things like lashing rape victims and depriving gays of equal rights, that's going too far. basically, you can live by whatever code you want, but when your code ceases to be voluntary and becomes the law of the land backed by violence against those who subscribe to a different code, you are in the wrong.
Well said. It seems obvious that his problem is not simply with the treatment of this one particular woman but with Muslims in general.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
And who's keeping americans from driving 40 mpg prius's instead of 19 mpg tahoe's?
what do you mean by "don't agree with islam"? the whole religion? or just the sharia law thing? im just curious how youd' work around that in a marriage. it seems like it would be quite a sticking point.
Thank you. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who realised that. I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of a reply but it was starting to irritate me.
Let me start by stating once again that I highly disagree with the punishments.
The reason why the attackers were not sentenced to death was because there was lack of evidence. The most of the defense was based on what the woman and man had stated. There was also a lack of witnesses. I say it is damn good to convict 7 people to up to 9 years based on what a victim says. I have seen rapists and child abusers in Western countries with mounting evidence on them being released on a technicality or given suspended sentences. Where is the justice in that?
It is only recently that Australia has introduced amendments that allows a rape victim to give her testimony by video. They have also introduced "an agreement" that stops defense lawyers from badgering a rape victim. I say its about time. Just recently there was an article about a 15 year old girl suspected of stealing being put in a jail cell with 20 men in Brazil. She was raped relentlessly. That was not an isolated case.
Finally, you should watch the interview with the husband of the woman and what he says about the treatment of women in his culture. IF THIS WAS A CASE AGAINST DEFENSELESS WOMEN THEN THE GUY IN THE CAR WITH HER WHO WAS ALSO RAPED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CONVICTED AND PUNISHED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
I repeat once again, because of the final statement it is only logical that one could assume it is fundamentally Shi'ite persecution in a Sunni dominant country than it is about a woman.
Are you serious?
Just because you had the misfortune of being born in a country with crazy unjust laws does not mean that you agreed to abide by them.
-C Addison
No problem. I find that way too many people base their opinions of Islam on the actions of corrupt governments, such as the Saudies, or extremist like Bin Laden. The majority of Muslims are good decent people who simply want to live their lives in peace. To judge all of them based on the actions of a small minority just shows their ignorance.
some good points. *clap* *clap*
----
on another note, americam money and guns is whats keeping the saudi in arabia. Would be great to see the saudis lose power.
That is a different topic, and not the subject of this thread, and definitely none of your business. I only shared what I did as background for my comments.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008