were the Japanese worse than the Nazis?

dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
edited July 2006 in A Moving Train
I watched a documentary last night on CH4 and it was showing the brutality of the Japanese during WW2 especially towards the Chinese... so i was having a read of some websites this morning and looking for info on the Asian Holocaust and the Japanese were cruel fuckers it transpires... maybe even more so than the Nazis... who are probably more infamous in their mindless slaughter and collecting of gold teeth and hair.

even the death tolls are quite disturbing in terms of volume:-
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %.[1]
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
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Comments

  • siochansiochan Posts: 304
    the japanese where indeed sadistic bastards during that period of time ....... as a legacy of their actions (to my knowledge) they aren't allowed to have a structured military ever again....... or something to that effect.

    i've read some horrific things about what was done to the Chinese by the japanese ....

    but that seems to be the way of our world - Not that it is the right way of course !
    " You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    true. the japanese counterpart of the SS was the "unit 61 " or something like that, which was into extermination of captured civilians.

    the other deaths they inflicted were in combat.

    so yes, they are no better than the nazis. and no less cruel.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • brain of cbrain of c Posts: 5,213
    oh, no.

    there goes tokyo.......
    .
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_Women

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Soldier%27s_House


    both would capture women and then have these women used as sex slaves for soldiers... the Japanese appear to be worse in that they transported these women into front line situations...
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I would say it's pretty relative really. The Japanese treatment of Allied prisoners of war was indeed terrible. In terms of sheer numbers however, the Nazi's killed a lot more. But then Stalin starved about 20 million of his own people to death between 1929 and 1933.
    The rape of Nanking by the Japanese army in 1937 is remarkable for the sheer savagery of the military, although was the clinical destruction of the Jews by the Nazi's any less savage in it's own peculiar way? It's hard to say.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Byrnzie wrote:
    In terms of sheer numbers however, the Nazi's killed a lot more.

    that was my mis-perception about all of this... the docu last night was suggesting otherwise

    The Japanese military's use of forced labour, by Asian civilians and POWs also caused many deaths — more than 100,000 in the case of the Burma Railway alone. The Geneva Convention exempted POWs of sergeant rank or higher from manual labour, and stipulated that prisoners performing work should be provided with extra rations and other essentials. During World War II such rules were largely respected in German POW camps, except in the case of Soviet POWs. However, Japan was not a signatory at the time, and Japanese forces did not follow the convention
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    However, Japan was not a signatory at the time, and Japanese forces did not follow the convention[/i]

    then we cant say they broke rules.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    that was my mis-perception about all of this... the docu last night was suggesting otherwise

    Did they suggest any figures?
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    then we cant say they broke rules.

    nope we cant... but then its quite apparent that the killing of people for fun and the enslaving of others for sexual favours shouldnt really have fuckin rules anyway... any human being should know that it is wrong!
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Did they suggest any figures?

    not that i can remember but the historian chappie was suggesting the death toll in China to be far more than the holocaust... and even then Japan fucked over most of Korea and surrounding nations as well..

    one of the actual artefacts they had last night was a Japanese 'news flyer' type of thing that was showing the faces of two officers who were competing against each other to see who could kill 100 chinese civilians first :eek:

    this was performed by them duelling with the chinese guy in a sword fight... obviously these guys were highly trained nutjobs and thusly one of them had a total of 89 and the other guy needed to catch up as he was on 70-something... but there they were , smiling from the front of a Japanese military newspaper/flyer... how deranged is that!!
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • siochansiochan Posts: 304
    not that i can remember but the historian chappie was suggesting the death toll in China to be far more than the holocaust... and even then Japan fucked over most of Korea and surrounding nations as well..

    one of the actual artefacts they had last night was a Japanese 'news flyer' type of thing that was showing the faces of two officers who were competing against each other to see who could kill 100 chinese civilians first :eek:

    this was performed by them duelling with the chinese guy in a sword fight... obviously these guys were highly trained nutjobs and thusly one of them had a total of 89 and the other guy needed to catch up as he was on 70-something... but there they were , smiling from the front of a Japanese military newspaper/flyer... how deranged is that!!


    Fucked up things are done in times of war - human beings I don't think are built to be killing machines .......... But when people are trained to be just that surely the mental balance is tipped .......

    I find it extremely disturbing that anyone could put on a uniform and kill under the guise of some twisted nationlistic/ imperialistic ideal ...... I stated a few days ago in another thread somewhere - can't remember where ........ you'd think that with all these disgusting acts of the human race's past we'd have learned from our mistakes........

    pretty dumb race aint we.........
    " You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
  • brain of cbrain of c Posts: 5,213
    With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
    He pulls the spitting high tension wires down

    Helpless people on a subway train
    Scream bug-eyed as he looks in on them

    He picks up a bus and he throws it back down
    As he wades through the buildings toward the center of town

    Oh no, they say hes got to go
    Go go godzilla, yeah
    Oh no, there goes tokyo
    Go go godzilla, yeah

    Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
    Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
    Godzilla ga ginza hoomen e mukatte imasu!
    Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!
    Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!

    Oh no, they say hes got to go
    Go go godzilla, yeah
    Oh no, there goes tokyo
    Go go godzilla, yeah

    History shows again and again
    How nature points up the folly of men
    Godzilla!
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    siochan wrote:
    pretty dumb race aint we.........
    you will notice that the 4 greatest criminal peoples in the world are (in no particular order)

    germanic man,
    mongolian (as in from mongolia, i dont mean mongoloid),
    arab-turkic
    hispanic (latin american genocide and all).


    pretty much all the greatest genocides in the world, barring the self inflicted commie carnages (like soviets on soviets or cambodians on cambodia), had these types on one or both sides of the war.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • siochansiochan Posts: 304
    you will notice that the 4 greatest criminal peoples in the world are (in no particular order)

    germanic man,
    mongolian (as in from mongolia, i dont mean mongoloid),
    arab-turkic
    hispanic (latin american genocide and all).


    pretty much all the greatest genocides in the world, barring the self inflicted commie carnages (like soviets on soviets or cambodians on cambodia), had these types on one or both sides of the war.


    Regardless of origins ....... we're all Humans
    " You cannot throw a rope around the neck of an idea" .....Bobby Sands.
  • I believe the Japanese were equally as cruel as the Nazi's but Japan was more determined then Germany to be a superpower at the time. Japan's 'New Order' was nothing more than an attempt to control East Asia, even though Tojo Hideki claimed the 'New Order' or 'Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere' was a plan to unite East Asia and free it from Western ideals. At the time Japan was ruthless and if it wasn't for the oil embargo Japan may have well have taken over East Asia. The Battle of Midway was an extremely close battle and had that battle gone Japan's way East Asia was doomed. Japan's atrocities started during the second Sino-Japanese War where they raped and pillaged countless numbers of Chinese people. This attitude continued until they were defeated in World War 2.

    BUT

    It can be argued that the West forced Japan to take on an expansionist attitude. When Commodore Matthew Perry forcibly opened up Japan's shores to the Western World in the mid 1800's, Japan had to change in order to survive. Japan is only a small area of land compared to the Western superpowers and expansion was seen as a way of survival.
    Wave came crashing...
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    I believe the Japanese were equally as cruel as the Nazi's but Japan was more determined then Germany to be a superpower at the time. Japan's 'New Order' was nothing more than an attempt to control East Asia, even though Tojo Hideki claimed the 'New Order' or 'Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere' was a plan to unite East Asia and free it from Western ideals. At the time Japan was ruthless and if it wasn't for the oil embargo Japan may have well have taken over East Asia. The Battle of Midway was an extremely close battle and had that battle gone Japan's way East Asia was doomed. Japan's atrocities started during the second Sino-Japanese War where they raped and pillaged countless numbers of Chinese people. This attitude continued until they were defeated in World War 2.

    BUT

    It can be argued that the West forced Japan to take on an expansionist attitude. When Commodore Matthew Perry forcibly opened up Japan's shores to the Western World in the mid 1800's, Japan had to change in order to survive. Japan is only a small area of land compared to the Western superpowers and expansion was seen as a way of survival.

    can you supply links or material about the
    1) oil embargo
    2) battle of midway
    thanks.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • The main difference is the Germans today are ashamed of what they did and fully admit in their education system the wrongs of the Nazi error. The Japanese meanwhile try to pretend they weren't so bad.
    The wind is blowing cold
    Have we lost our way tonight?
    Have we lost our hope to sorrow?

    Feels like were all alone
    Running further from what’s right
    And there are no more heroes to follow

    So what are we becoming?
    Where did we go wrong?
  • can you supply links or material about the
    1) oil embargo
    2) battle of midway
    thanks.


    umm i dont know of any sites...but the oil embargo happened after the Japanese invaded French Indonesia in mid 1941. The Americans, who were also involved in the Japanese occupation of China, told the Japanese to withdraw their troops from Japan but they didnt. The Americans stopped the oil supply to Japan. Japan relied heavily on this oil supply. Japan's naval fleet would only last a further year without oil. Japan needed a way to get oil and they could get some oil from Indonesian areas but they needed the American oil. They attacked Pearl Harbour in the hope that it would scare the Americans into reinstating the flow of oil.


    I dont know much about Midway sorry, I only know it was close
    Wave came crashing...
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    you will notice that the 4 greatest criminal peoples in the world are (in no particular order)

    germanic man,
    mongolian (as in from mongolia, i dont mean mongoloid),
    arab-turkic
    hispanic (latin american genocide and all).

    pretty much all the greatest genocides in the world, barring the self inflicted commie carnages (like soviets on soviets or cambodians on cambodia), had these types on one or both sides of the war.

    I think you will find that people are people all over the place. The main difference lying in resources and means. As if you Indians didnt war on eachother since the dawn of time as well... The european people have caused a lot of carnage, but not necessarily because we're demons, but because we could. We were the first to modernize, and hence the first to be enabled to atrocities on a modern genocidal scale.

    I find it completely unconstructive to split humanity into "races" and attributing some with being more evil than others. (which is what you basically did here now) But if you want to feel all smug being Indian, go ahead. But you're no different in this respect.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Indian people are not out of being violent altogether either

    Partition....one of the most gruesome 'wars' in history
    Wave came crashing...
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    The main difference is the Germans today are ashamed of what they did and fully admit in their education system the wrongs of the Nazi error. The Japanese meanwhile try to pretend they weren't so bad.
    that main difference comes because of the lack of "war films" and books about the japanese attrocities by the chinese, phillipinos and all others at the receiving end of the japs.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • nauzinauzi Posts: 3
    brain of c wrote:
    With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
    He pulls the spitting high tension wires down

    Helpless people on a subway train
    Scream bug-eyed as he looks in on them

    He picks up a bus and he throws it back down
    As he wades through the buildings toward the center of town

    Oh no, they say hes got to go
    Go go godzilla, yeah
    Oh no, there goes tokyo
    Go go godzilla, yeah

    Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
    Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
    Godzilla ga ginza hoomen e mukatte imasu!
    Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!
    Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!

    Oh no, they say hes got to go
    Go go godzilla, yeah
    Oh no, there goes tokyo
    Go go godzilla, yeah

    History shows again and again
    How nature points up the folly of men
    Godzilla!

    BOC
    feign reluctance

    i renounce my former self to my current self...tomorrow

    http://forums.pearljam.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=35009

    bring it on cause i'm no victim
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    that main difference comes because of the lack of "war films" and books about the japanese attrocities by the chinese, phillipinos and all others at the receiving end of the japs.

    Could be a similar situation to the U.S.S.R whereby those in power prevented the true figures re: casualties from being released. It has since transpired that Soviet losses amounted to between 30 and 40 million between 1941 and 1945. When you compare that to the 300,000 British killed it kind of puts things into perspective.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    As if you Indians didnt war on eachother since the dawn of time as well...

    waging war and causing genocides are not the same thing. alexander and hitler are two different animals.

    if its war you are talking about, then yes, pretty much everyone. if its deliberate hacking of people in village after village you are talking about, then i stand by my point.

    The european people have caused a lot of carnage, but not necessarily because we're demons, but because we could.
    well it certainly wasnt all the european peoples. it was mainly the 6 colonial countries and then the would-be colonial, germany.
    We were the first to modernize, and hence the first to be enabled to atrocities on a modern genocidal scale.
    if you mean rome, yes the first to mordenise. if you mean entire europe, then i have to differ.
    of the 4 peoples i mentioned the ones to cause the first widespread mass murder were the mongols.
    I find it completely unconstructive to split humanity into "races" and attributing some with being more evil than others. (which is what you basically did here now)

    i find it very useful. at least that way we know that all of humanity wasnt to blame but only certain pockets. thats why i different from you said "european peoples" caused a lot of damage - cos that makes it seem like all of europe was colonial and/or nazi. when it was about 7-8 countries out of 40 odd.
    But if you want to feel all smug being Indian, go ahead. But you're no different in this respect.
    Dan

    i would feel just as smug had i been vietnamese, scandinavian, or from bolivia. these arnt the countries who did the attacking or mass killing.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Could be a similar situation to the U.S.S.R whereby those in power prevented the true figures re: casualties from being released. It has since transpired that Soviet losses amounted to between 30 and 40 million between 1941 and 1945. When you compare that to the 300,000 British killed it kind of puts things into perspective.


    Constructed memory is a problem in many countries, not just the ones who were the cause of the world wars.
    In Australia we celebrate ANZAC Day, a day which most aussies remember war veterans who proudly fought in Gallipoli, but we lost the battle significantly. I bet half of us Australians wouldnt even know we lost that particular battle
    Wave came crashing...
  • Indian Summer, not to have a go at you here but....


    The Muslims and Hindus in India are a fine example of attempted genocide. Wiping out an entire religion can be classed as genocide and that is exactly what was attempted during Partition.

    The Indians have always been involved in violent acts, right from the beginning of the Mughal Empire. The Mughals, Marathas and whoever else were always warring with each other. Over history, every race or religion has had their attempt at power.
    Wave came crashing...
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    Indian people are not out of being violent altogether either

    Partition....one of the most gruesome 'wars' in history
    thats just bollocks !!!!

    india has been on the receiving end of the biggest and most continued mass murder (in the nads of muslims) for over 1000 years. and then we were reduced from being one of the richest countries to the poorest in the planet thanks to colonisation. add to that the dozen odd engineered famines, taking millions of lives each (you could read about Dr. Amarthya Sen's nobel prize winning work on that). And then that country was split and people had to cross from one side to another with whatever belongings they could take. during that exodus, pretty much the bottled up anger of all that history came out and millions died.

    so even that "war" was engineered - its not for muslims to come and hack away in india for 1000 years. its not for poms to come and divide a country thats not theirs. we didnt kill/attack millions of englishmen. nor ever invaded a muslim country.

    half the deaths during partition were due to starvation and diseases in any case (just like the deaths in today's african strife-torn countries).
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • thats just bollocks !!!!

    india has been on the receiving end of the biggest and most continued mass murder (in the nads of muslims) for over 1000 years. and then we were reduced from being one of the richest countries to the poorest in the planet thanks to colonisation. add to that the dozen odd engineered famines, taking millions of lives each (you could read about Dr. Amarthya Sen's nobel prize winning work on that). And then that country was split and people had to cross from one side to another with whatever belongings they could take. during that exodus, pretty much the bottled up anger of all that history came out and millions died.

    so even that "war" was engineered - its not for muslims to come and hack away in india for 1000 years. its not for poms to come and divide a country thats not theirs. we didnt kill/attack millions of englishmen. nor ever invaded a muslim country.

    half the deaths during partition were due to starvation and diseases in any case (just like the deaths in today's african strife-torn countries).

    India was already in tatters when the British arrived....thanks to the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb....if Aurangzeb had kept on the same path as the great Emperor Akbar India would have beaten off the British. The fact that Aurangzeb had weakened the empire made it easier for the British to set up and colonise...no in that regard you are wrong
    Wave came crashing...
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