were the Japanese worse than the Nazis?
dunkman
Posts: 19,646
I watched a documentary last night on CH4 and it was showing the brutality of the Japanese during WW2 especially towards the Chinese... so i was having a read of some websites this morning and looking for info on the Asian Holocaust and the Japanese were cruel fuckers it transpires... maybe even more so than the Nazis... who are probably more infamous in their mindless slaughter and collecting of gold teeth and hair.
even the death tolls are quite disturbing in terms of volume:-
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %.[1]
even the death tolls are quite disturbing in terms of volume:-
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %.[1]
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
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i've read some horrific things about what was done to the Chinese by the japanese ....
but that seems to be the way of our world - Not that it is the right way of course !
the other deaths they inflicted were in combat.
so yes, they are no better than the nazis. and no less cruel.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Soldier%27s_House
both would capture women and then have these women used as sex slaves for soldiers... the Japanese appear to be worse in that they transported these women into front line situations...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
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The rape of Nanking by the Japanese army in 1937 is remarkable for the sheer savagery of the military, although was the clinical destruction of the Jews by the Nazi's any less savage in it's own peculiar way? It's hard to say.
http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html
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that was my mis-perception about all of this... the docu last night was suggesting otherwise
The Japanese military's use of forced labour, by Asian civilians and POWs also caused many deaths — more than 100,000 in the case of the Burma Railway alone. The Geneva Convention exempted POWs of sergeant rank or higher from manual labour, and stipulated that prisoners performing work should be provided with extra rations and other essentials. During World War II such rules were largely respected in German POW camps, except in the case of Soviet POWs. However, Japan was not a signatory at the time, and Japanese forces did not follow the convention
then we cant say they broke rules.
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Did they suggest any figures?
nope we cant... but then its quite apparent that the killing of people for fun and the enslaving of others for sexual favours shouldnt really have fuckin rules anyway... any human being should know that it is wrong!
not that i can remember but the historian chappie was suggesting the death toll in China to be far more than the holocaust... and even then Japan fucked over most of Korea and surrounding nations as well..
one of the actual artefacts they had last night was a Japanese 'news flyer' type of thing that was showing the faces of two officers who were competing against each other to see who could kill 100 chinese civilians first :eek:
this was performed by them duelling with the chinese guy in a sword fight... obviously these guys were highly trained nutjobs and thusly one of them had a total of 89 and the other guy needed to catch up as he was on 70-something... but there they were , smiling from the front of a Japanese military newspaper/flyer... how deranged is that!!
Fucked up things are done in times of war - human beings I don't think are built to be killing machines .......... But when people are trained to be just that surely the mental balance is tipped .......
I find it extremely disturbing that anyone could put on a uniform and kill under the guise of some twisted nationlistic/ imperialistic ideal ...... I stated a few days ago in another thread somewhere - can't remember where ........ you'd think that with all these disgusting acts of the human race's past we'd have learned from our mistakes........
pretty dumb race aint we.........
He pulls the spitting high tension wires down
Helpless people on a subway train
Scream bug-eyed as he looks in on them
He picks up a bus and he throws it back down
As he wades through the buildings toward the center of town
Oh no, they say hes got to go
Go go godzilla, yeah
Oh no, there goes tokyo
Go go godzilla, yeah
Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
Godzilla ga ginza hoomen e mukatte imasu!
Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!
Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!
Oh no, they say hes got to go
Go go godzilla, yeah
Oh no, there goes tokyo
Go go godzilla, yeah
History shows again and again
How nature points up the folly of men
Godzilla!
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germanic man,
mongolian (as in from mongolia, i dont mean mongoloid),
arab-turkic
hispanic (latin american genocide and all).
pretty much all the greatest genocides in the world, barring the self inflicted commie carnages (like soviets on soviets or cambodians on cambodia), had these types on one or both sides of the war.
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Regardless of origins ....... we're all Humans
BUT
It can be argued that the West forced Japan to take on an expansionist attitude. When Commodore Matthew Perry forcibly opened up Japan's shores to the Western World in the mid 1800's, Japan had to change in order to survive. Japan is only a small area of land compared to the Western superpowers and expansion was seen as a way of survival.
can you supply links or material about the
1) oil embargo
2) battle of midway
thanks.
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So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
umm i dont know of any sites...but the oil embargo happened after the Japanese invaded French Indonesia in mid 1941. The Americans, who were also involved in the Japanese occupation of China, told the Japanese to withdraw their troops from Japan but they didnt. The Americans stopped the oil supply to Japan. Japan relied heavily on this oil supply. Japan's naval fleet would only last a further year without oil. Japan needed a way to get oil and they could get some oil from Indonesian areas but they needed the American oil. They attacked Pearl Harbour in the hope that it would scare the Americans into reinstating the flow of oil.
I dont know much about Midway sorry, I only know it was close
I think you will find that people are people all over the place. The main difference lying in resources and means. As if you Indians didnt war on eachother since the dawn of time as well... The european people have caused a lot of carnage, but not necessarily because we're demons, but because we could. We were the first to modernize, and hence the first to be enabled to atrocities on a modern genocidal scale.
I find it completely unconstructive to split humanity into "races" and attributing some with being more evil than others. (which is what you basically did here now) But if you want to feel all smug being Indian, go ahead. But you're no different in this respect.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Partition....one of the most gruesome 'wars' in history
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BOC
i renounce my former self to my current self...tomorrow
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bring it on cause i'm no victim
Could be a similar situation to the U.S.S.R whereby those in power prevented the true figures re: casualties from being released. It has since transpired that Soviet losses amounted to between 30 and 40 million between 1941 and 1945. When you compare that to the 300,000 British killed it kind of puts things into perspective.
waging war and causing genocides are not the same thing. alexander and hitler are two different animals.
if its war you are talking about, then yes, pretty much everyone. if its deliberate hacking of people in village after village you are talking about, then i stand by my point.
well it certainly wasnt all the european peoples. it was mainly the 6 colonial countries and then the would-be colonial, germany.
if you mean rome, yes the first to mordenise. if you mean entire europe, then i have to differ.
of the 4 peoples i mentioned the ones to cause the first widespread mass murder were the mongols.
i find it very useful. at least that way we know that all of humanity wasnt to blame but only certain pockets. thats why i different from you said "european peoples" caused a lot of damage - cos that makes it seem like all of europe was colonial and/or nazi. when it was about 7-8 countries out of 40 odd.
i would feel just as smug had i been vietnamese, scandinavian, or from bolivia. these arnt the countries who did the attacking or mass killing.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
Constructed memory is a problem in many countries, not just the ones who were the cause of the world wars.
In Australia we celebrate ANZAC Day, a day which most aussies remember war veterans who proudly fought in Gallipoli, but we lost the battle significantly. I bet half of us Australians wouldnt even know we lost that particular battle
The Muslims and Hindus in India are a fine example of attempted genocide. Wiping out an entire religion can be classed as genocide and that is exactly what was attempted during Partition.
The Indians have always been involved in violent acts, right from the beginning of the Mughal Empire. The Mughals, Marathas and whoever else were always warring with each other. Over history, every race or religion has had their attempt at power.
india has been on the receiving end of the biggest and most continued mass murder (in the nads of muslims) for over 1000 years. and then we were reduced from being one of the richest countries to the poorest in the planet thanks to colonisation. add to that the dozen odd engineered famines, taking millions of lives each (you could read about Dr. Amarthya Sen's nobel prize winning work on that). And then that country was split and people had to cross from one side to another with whatever belongings they could take. during that exodus, pretty much the bottled up anger of all that history came out and millions died.
so even that "war" was engineered - its not for muslims to come and hack away in india for 1000 years. its not for poms to come and divide a country thats not theirs. we didnt kill/attack millions of englishmen. nor ever invaded a muslim country.
half the deaths during partition were due to starvation and diseases in any case (just like the deaths in today's african strife-torn countries).
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
India was already in tatters when the British arrived....thanks to the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb....if Aurangzeb had kept on the same path as the great Emperor Akbar India would have beaten off the British. The fact that Aurangzeb had weakened the empire made it easier for the British to set up and colonise...no in that regard you are wrong