Communism bailing out Capitalism

saveuplife

Here's the irony...

...this board is largely socialist. You're points are 100% valid. Those who are socialists aren't applauding this move. Why? Most likely, because they want Republicans to look like they are responsible and at fault ect. In other words they care more about winning an election than actual policies. I think that's ironic. People lose sight of their beliefs, if parties cross lines.

The bottom-line question (to any socialist on here) is.... if it was the Republican party that moved us further towards socialism (in other words closer to a European-style economy), would you agree with that aspect of the Republican party?


In other news, oil may fall below $90 today. No media coverage on that one. lol

know1

saveuplife wrote:

Here's the irony...

...this board is largely socialist. You're points are 100% valid. Those who are socialists aren't applauding this move. Why? Most likely, because they want Republicans to look like they are responsible and at fault ect. In other words they care more about winning an election than actual policies. I think that's ironic. People lose sight of their beliefs, if parties cross lines.

The bottom-line question (to any socialist on here) is.... if it was the Republican party that moved us further towards socialism (in other words closer to a European-style economy), would you agree with that aspect of the Republican party?


In other news, oil may fall below $90 today. No media coverage on that one. lol

Good points.

With regard to the other news - gas rose 15% here late last week supposedly due to Ike and remains at that level even though the price of oil is dropping rapidly.

spiral out

know1 wrote:

Good points.

With regard to the other news - gas rose 15% here late last week supposedly due to Ike and remains at that level even though the price of oil is dropping rapidly.

Prices haven't budged here either, even though oil has fallen way of it's peak.

Pacomc79

know1 wrote:

Good points.

With regard to the other news - gas rose 15% here late last week supposedly due to Ike and remains at that level even though the price of oil is dropping rapidly.

The oil still has to be refined into all the special city blends of gasoline and shipped. It would be much cheaper now if the storm had not occured and effected an extremely important area in the energy infrastructure. Shutting down operations requires restarting things, doing it safely... takes a little time.

SpreadtheJAM

catch22 wrote:

jesus christ. are there any companies we CAN let fail? i thought in capitalism if a business sucked, it crashed and burned? now we're all pissing our pants because a bunch of people did a shit job running their company and we're afraid rich investors will lose their money?

Yeah Lehman brothers. Government started playing hardball with LEH and then completely reversed course in the matter of days to save AIG.

RainDog

saveuplife wrote:

Here's the irony...

...this board is largely socialist. You're points are 100% valid. Those who are socialists aren't applauding this move. Why? Most likely, because they want Republicans to look like they are responsible and at fault ect. In other words they care more about winning an election than actual policies. I think that's ironic. People lose sight of their beliefs, if parties cross lines.

The bottom-line question (to any socialist on here) is.... if it was the Republican party that moved us further towards socialism (in other words closer to a European-style economy), would you agree with that aspect of the Republican party?


In other news, oil may fall below $90 today. No media coverage on that one. lol

As spiral out mentioned further upthread, we are only socializing the losses. That's government working in synch with the corporation, not the worker. That's more akin to fascism than socialism.

mammasan

I have two questions. Where is the government getting all this money to bail out failing corporations? And what happens in 2-3 years down the road the economy has not improved and these companies are once again on the brink of collapse?

Pacomc79

mammasan wrote:

I have two questions. Where is the government getting all this money to bail out failing corporations? And what happens in 2-3 years down the road the economy has not improved and these companies are once again on the brink of collapse?

I'd think part of it would come from taking control over the company and selling off the assets?

SpreadtheJAM

mammasan wrote:

I have two questions. Where is the government getting all this money to bail out failing corporations? And what happens in 2-3 years down the road the economy has not improved and these companies are once again on the brink of collapse?

You and me. Bail em out again

meme

catch22 wrote:

no kidding. this is a mess of their making.

But not of their solving, apparently :rolleyes:

DriftingByTheStorm

mammasan wrote:

I have two questions. Where is the government getting all this money to bail out failing corporations? And what happens in 2-3 years down the road the economy has not improved and these companies are once again on the brink of collapse?

a.

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

The Creature From Jekyll Island.
READ IT.

the 45 minute lecture version ... its got nothing on the 500+ page book, but its a start.

THE MONEY MASTERS -- probably THE best, most informative, and most complete look at the federal reserve, and the phony baloney US banking system that has EVER been made, and it was produced almost FIFTEEN years ago. This is of monumental importance.

If you don't understand WHY the system was structured the way it was, AND BY WHOM, you will NEVER understand why shit keeps happening the way it does, and why the "public" system KEEPS BAILING OUT "private" banks.

THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME. OWNED BY THE SAME INTERESTS. DIFFERENT ARMS OF THE SAME CREATURE.

PEOPLE YOU MUST LEARN AND UNDERSTAND THIS STUFF.

You need to understand what the Federal Reserve is, how it works, who wanted it that way, and why.

b.

If \ When in 3 years the market is still fucked, and these firms are still struggling, the Federal Reserve will still have its printing presses on to hand out free money at your expense to these firms. If that doesn't work they will "inject liquidity" via other means ... or they will finagle their way out of it by perverting some accounting rules via congressional action of some sort ...

Folks you are looking at the ELITE GOVERNMENT protecting its own rulers, the ELITE BANKS ...

and if you do not understand that concept, and what the Federal Reserve is, and who made it and why, you will NEVER understand this.

I don't know why I have so much trouble communicating that concept on this board ... especially at this point.

You people sit here and scream socialism, and "republican scheme" and all sorts of goof ball cries of wolf ... and you have NO idea what is really going on.

SpreadtheJAM

Feds say Monday they will not bail out AIG. putting pressure on Goldman and Morgan and other financials to come up with $85B loan. These companies have the most to lose from an AIG collapse, so they figure they will surely come up with it. Tuesday night comes around and the Financials call the bluff of the FEDs, they don't budge. The government is left with no other option, but to sustain a trillion dollar giant.
Goldman and Morgan and others knew that the government would not let AIG fail, if there was the possibility of it, the private sector surely would've come up with the money.

mammasan

This is what happens when the foundation of our economy is debt. If every consumer in this country where to stop using credit cards and only purchase what they could afford with the money they had on hand, our economy as it stands would crumble. Ron Paul wrote about this in his latest book that this illusion of economic growth based solely on American's purchasing habits and their ability to live beyond their means would eventually catch up to us. This is exactly what is happening now. The foundation finally cracked and is crumbling under the massive wait of the debit it has incurred.

mammasan

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

a.



You need to understand what the Federal Reserve is, how it works, who wanted it that way, and why.

b.

If \ When in 3 years the market is still fucked, and these firms are still struggling, the Federal Reserve will still have its printing presses on to hand out free money at your expense to these firms. If that doesn't work they will "inject liquidity" via other means ... or they will finagle their way out of it by perverting some accounting rules via congressional action of some sort ...

Folks you are looking at the ELITE GOVERNMENT protecting its own rulers, the ELITE BANKS ...

and if you do not understand that concept, and what the Federal Reserve is, and who made it and why, you will NEVER understand this.

I don't know why I have so much trouble communicating that concept on this board ... especially at this point.

You people sit here and scream socialism, and "republican scheme" and all sorts of goof ball cries of wolf ... and you have NO idea what is really going on.

My questions where basically rhetorical. I am well aware of who is paying for these bail outs and what will happen a few years down the road if the economy continues to falter, which in my opinion it will.

Pacomc79

mammasan wrote:

This is what happens when the foundation of our economy is debt. If every consumer in this country where to stop using credit cards and only purchase what they could afford with the money they had on hand, our economy as it stands would crumble. Ron Paul wrote about this in his latest book that this illusion of economic growth based solely on American's purchasing habits and their ability to live beyond their means would eventually catch up to us. This is exactly what is happening now. The foundation finally cracked and is crumbling under the massive wait of the debit it has incurred.

This is true, The value of everything has been overinflated due to the ease of credit. If 50% of borrowers are paying thier credit cards off every month... no worries.

The AVERAGE american has around 8 grand worth of just Credit Card debt... that's freaking scary.

DriftingByTheStorm

mammasan wrote:

This is what happens when the foundation of our economy is debt. If every consumer in this country where to stop using credit cards and only purchase what they could afford with the money they had on hand, our economy as it stands would crumble.

WHOA!
This is the most intelligent financial comment i have seen on this board, EVER.

Seriously.
SOMEONE GETS IT!

Folks this is what we are talking about here.
The system is a sham.

It only works because for every 1 you deposit at a bank, that bank gets to lend out 10 more that it never had.
And in reality it is more like 100 to 1 due to the way the leverage recirculates itself.

The reality is that money IS debt ... the amount of dollars in circulation are (for all general purposes) EQUIVILANT to the amount of national debt.

It all comes from nowhere, printed up by the Federal Reserve, backed by nothing but YOUR ABILITY TO WORK, and the government's promise to MAKE YOU WORK to pay off that debt, should it fail ...

The expansion of the US economy has been almost entirely based on the expansion of US DEBT ... which in large part is nothing more than consumer CREDIT.

And when the consumer stops using credit, or worse ... starts PAYING IT OFF ... what he is unknowingly doing is BRINGING DOWN THE SYSTEM BUILT AROUND HIM ... because every dollar of credit you pay off DESTROYS TEN DOLLARS OF POTENTIAL LEVERAGE AT THE BANK.

If you started withdrawing that money from your bank account to pay bills you would (at least temporarily, until that money ended back up in a bank account) be FUCKING THE BANKS BIG TIME.

pacomc79 wrote:

If 50% of borrowers are paying thier credit cards off every month... no worries.

BIG WORRIES! BAD BAD BAD!

That is DESTROYING THE MONETARY BASE OF OUR COUNTRY. That would shrink the money\credit supply in this country so fast we would fall in to instand depression. The only reason we are staying afloat is probably because consumers CONTINUE to borrow. Remember, it may be a liability to you, but it is a HUGE ASSET to the system. Your debt is on a bank's BALANCE SHEET as an ASSET, and they use each dollar of debt you have to lend out MORE money. If you pay it back, you undo that chain of leverage, and cause an even worse catastrophe!

THIS is the VERY REASON the US Government will continue to BAIL OUT the banks.
Because what the USG is doing is KEEPING BAD LOANS ON THE BOOK AS ASSETS, by subsidization.
If it allowed these banks to fail, and allowed the debt to be WRITTEN OFF, it would be WIPING OUT THE MONEY SUPPLY OF THE COUNTRY, ...folks THAT is what "TOO BIG TO FAIL" means ... it means, TOO MUCH MONEY WOULD DISSAPEAR DOWN A HOLE TO NOWHERE, if they failed, and THAT CAN NOT HAPPEN!

Very impressed, Mamasans ...
best post in a LONG time on this board!

hip hip hooray.

SpreadtheJAM

[/quote]And when the consumer stops using credit, or worse ... starts PAYING IT OFF ... what he is unknowingly doing is BRINGING DOWN THE SYSTEM BUILT AROUND HIM ... because every dollar of credit you pay off DESTROYS TEN DOLLARS OF POTENTIAL LEVERAGE AT THE BANK.



hip hip hooray.[/quote]

What are you saying here banks are looking for people NOT to pay their debts? Not sure i get that. If the consumer could actually pay off the credit cards and mortgages, and student loans and car payments then this wouldn't be happening. The banks are looking for there money and people are defaulting that is the start, the leveraging that was done just magnified the situation.

Jammin909

saveuplife wrote:

Here's the irony...

...this board is largely socialist. You're points are 100% valid. Those who are socialists aren't applauding this move. Why? Most likely, because they want Republicans to look like they are responsible and at fault ect. In other words they care more about winning an election than actual policies. I think that's ironic. People lose sight of their beliefs, if parties cross lines.

The bottom-line question (to any socialist on here) is.... if it was the Republican party that moved us further towards socialism (in other words closer to a European-style economy), would you agree with that aspect of the Republican party?


In other news, oil may fall below $90 today. No media coverage on that one. lol

This issue revolves around accountability, not partisanship.

AIG had record profits in 2005, three years later they need an $85 billion bandaid from the fed at my expense- that sucks and businesses will continue to make risky decisions knowing the govt will be there to hold their hand in a time of need.

mammasan

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

WHOA!
This is the most intelligent financial comment i have seen on this board, EVER.

Seriously.
SOMEONE GETS IT!

Folks this is what we are talking about here.
The system is a sham.

It only works because for every 1 you deposit at a bank, that bank gets to lend out 10 more that it never had.
And in reality it is more like 100 to 1 due to the way the leverage recirculates itself.

The reality is that money IS debt ... the amount of dollars in circulation are (for all general purposes) EQUIVILANT to the amount of national debt.

It all comes from nowhere, printed up by the Federal Reserve, backed by nothing but YOUR ABILITY TO WORK, and the government's promise to MAKE YOU WORK to pay off that debt, should it fail ...

The expansion of the US economy has been almost entirely based on the expansion of US DEBT ... which in large part is nothing more than consumer CREDIT.

And when the consumer stops using credit, or worse ... starts PAYING IT OFF ... what he is unknowingly doing is BRINGING DOWN THE SYSTEM BUILT AROUND HIM ... because every dollar of credit you pay off DESTROYS TEN DOLLARS OF POTENTIAL LEVERAGE AT THE BANK.

If you started withdrawing that money from your bank account to pay bills you would (at least temporarily, until that money ended back up in a bank account) be FUCKING THE BANKS BIG TIME.


BIG WORRIES! BAD BAD BAD!

That is DESTROYING THE MONETARY BASE OF OUR COUNTRY. That would shrink the money\credit supply in this country so fast we would fall in to instand depression. The only reason we are staying afloat is probably because consumers CONTINUE to borrow. Remember, it may be a liability to you, but it is a HUGE ASSET to the system. Your debt is on a bank's BALANCE SHEET as an ASSET, and they use each dollar of debt you have to lend out MORE money. If you pay it back, you undo that chain of leverage, and cause an even worse catastrophe!

Very impressed, Mamasans ...
best post in a LONG time on this board!

hip hip hooray.

Thank you. I've been spending many sleepless nights educating myself on the issue. Reading as much as I can get my hands on to further understand the in's and out's of our economy. Also dating someone who works in the financial sector has it's benefits.

mammasan

SpreadtheJAM wrote:

And when the consumer stops using credit, or worse ... starts PAYING IT OFF ... what he is unknowingly doing is BRINGING DOWN THE SYSTEM BUILT AROUND HIM ... because every dollar of credit you pay off DESTROYS TEN DOLLARS OF POTENTIAL LEVERAGE AT THE BANK.



hip hip hooray.[/quote]

What are you saying here banks are looking for people NOT to pay their debts? Not sure i get that. If the consumer could actually pay off the credit cards and mortgages, and student loans and car payments then this wouldn't be happening. The banks are looking for there money and people are defaulting that is the start, the leveraging that was done just magnified the situation.[/quote]

The lending institutes want you to pay your debt but not pay it off in full. As long as consumers but themselves in debt through their spending habits but pay the monthly minimum, or above, the economy will continue to grow. It is not real growth, just the illusion of growth. It is one you stop paying those monthly payments, or just pay off the entire debt all at once, that trouble starts.