Minimum Wage

desandrews

From a post of mine on 11-10-2006.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=222588

*************

The last time the minimum wage was raised, I was 16 years old working as a sacker in a grocery store. I was, needless to say, very happy about the only raise I received at that job over the 4 years I worked there.

Since then, I've understood arguments on either side to raise minimum wage or just abolish it all together. The thing I don't understand is why the proposed increases out there right now are so weak? Raising it $8 or $12 phased in over time. Screw that. I think we should raise the minimum wage to $24/hr. If you work a full 40 hour week for 52 weeks that puts you at about $50,000/yr. You can't tell me the true "poverty line" is lower than this. It's almost impossible to even own a car on this salary much less a house if you're trying to raise a family. Plus, having both parents work should not be a necessity so the entire family should be able to survive on one salary, that minimum salary in my mind is $50K.

So why not raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $24.00 an hour and really get this poverty thing over with. You don't think people will want to work at McDonald's for $24 an hour?

On a side note, it should be indexed for cost of living as well, so $24 in rural areas, something more like $35 in a city like Chicago, $45 in LA and $50 in NYC. I'm sick of seeing poor inner-cities, that needs to be corrected.

********************

From John Stossel today...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/01/sticking_it_to_lowskilled_work.html

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Raising the minimum wage is definitely popular. Voters in six states approved higher minimums last Election Day. State politicians in both parties are practically drooling with eagerness to "help" lower-income workers. After all, how can you call the current minimum, $5.15 an hour, a "living" wage? Who can live on that?

We all want the poor to make more money. So if government can raise wages by decree, why are the popular proposals so stingy? What good is a measly buck or two extra? Let's really do something for the poor. Let's raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour. Even better, $50!

*****************

qtegirl

I think that the minimum wage should be raised, but I disagree that it should be $24/hr. I think that you should be able to make a living out of your work, that's why I don't think that $5.15 is appropriate.

However, I think that if you want to make $50,000 a year, then you should do what most people drawing that salary did, which is to go to college and get an education.

RainDog

sssnnniiiiiifffffff.......

I smell bait in this thread. Chum, maybe.

sapperskunk

RainDog wrote:

sssnnniiiiiifffffff.......

I smell bait in this thread. Chum, maybe.

LOL, I think I can smell it too. Yep, that's chum.

desandrews

sapperskunk wrote:

LOL, I think I can smell it too. Yep, that's chum.

...and why don't you want to take that bait? Are you afraid you might not be able to put together a decent argument?

Let's eliminate the bait and get down to the question then, what will you accomplish by raising the minimum wage to $7+/hr? Will that accomplishment be significant, moderate or little-to-nothing at all? What will the costs be? Do the costs outweigh the accomplishments? Care to take that one or is it too stinky for you?

surferdude

desandrews wrote:

...and why don't you want to take that bait? Are you afraid you might not be able to put together a decent argument?

Let's eliminate the bait and get down to the question then, what will you accomplish by raising the minimum wage to $7+/hr? Will that accomplishment be significant, moderate or little-to-nothing at all? What will the costs be? Do the costs outweigh the accomplishments? Care to take that one or is it too stinky for you?

Let's argue over what minimum wage should be only once you've proven that minimum wage legislation is needed.

And when you are proposing your new minimum please include a full economic analysis of the effects this wage change will have on the American economy and industry.

miller8966

People that make mininum wage arent exactly working on the Manhattan project....they dont deserve 24 dollars an hr.

onelongsong

desandrews wrote:

From a post of mine on 11-10-2006.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=222588

*************

The last time the minimum wage was raised, I was 16 years old working as a sacker in a grocery store. I was, needless to say, very happy about the only raise I received at that job over the 4 years I worked there.

Since then, I've understood arguments on either side to raise minimum wage or just abolish it all together. The thing I don't understand is why the proposed increases out there right now are so weak? Raising it $8 or $12 phased in over time. Screw that. I think we should raise the minimum wage to $24/hr. If you work a full 40 hour week for 52 weeks that puts you at about $50,000/yr. You can't tell me the true "poverty line" is lower than this. It's almost impossible to even own a car on this salary much less a house if you're trying to raise a family. Plus, having both parents work should not be a necessity so the entire family should be able to survive on one salary, that minimum salary in my mind is $50K.

So why not raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $24.00 an hour and really get this poverty thing over with. You don't think people will want to work at McDonald's for $24 an hour?

On a side note, it should be indexed for cost of living as well, so $24 in rural areas, something more like $35 in a city like Chicago, $45 in LA and $50 in NYC. I'm sick of seeing poor inner-cities, that needs to be corrected.

********************

From John Stossel today...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/01/sticking_it_to_lowskilled_work.html

********************

Raising the minimum wage is definitely popular. Voters in six states approved higher minimums last Election Day. State politicians in both parties are practically drooling with eagerness to "help" lower-income workers. After all, how can you call the current minimum, $5.15 an hour, a "living" wage? Who can live on that?

We all want the poor to make more money. So if government can raise wages by decree, why are the popular proposals so stingy? What good is a measly buck or two extra? Let's really do something for the poor. Let's raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour. Even better, $50!

*****************

raising the minimum wage puts people out of work and will destroy the economy. look at all the goods being bought from asia because of cheap labor. why do you think it costs $50K/year to make a decent living now? and why pay you $6.00/hour when a korean will do the same work for $4.00/day?
we did this to ourselves by not having proper import taxes like other countries. for example; you'll pay twice as much for a pack of american cigarettes in japan than for a pack of japanese cigarettes. it's much cheaper to buy the japanese cigarettes thus the money stays in the country and the economy thrives.

jeffbr

Here's another gread opinion piece by George Will:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/01/the_minimum_wage_should_be_0_e.html

Some relevant info:

Most of the working poor earn more than the minimum wage, and most of the 0.6 percent (479,000 in 2005) of America's wage workers earning the minimum wage are not poor. Only one in five workers earning the federal minimum live in families with household earnings below the poverty line. Sixty percent work part-time and their average household income is well over $40,000. (The average and median household incomes are $63,344 and $46,326 respectively.)

Forty percent of American workers are salaried. Of the 75.6 million paid by the hour, 1.9 million earn the federal minimum or less, and of these, more than half are under 25 and more than a quarter are between 16 and 19. Many are students or other part-time workers. Sixty percent of those earning the federal minimum or less work in restaurants and bars and are earning tips -- often untaxed, perhaps -- in addition to their wages. Two-thirds of those earning the federal minimum today will, a year from now, have been promoted and be earning 10 percent more. Raising the minimum wage predictably makes work more attractive relative to school for some teenagers, and raises the dropout rate. Two scholars report that in states that allow persons to leave school before 18, a 10 percent increase in the state minimum wage caused teenage school enrollment to drop 2 percent.

qtegirl

onelongsong wrote:

raising the minimum wage puts people out of work and will destroy the economy. look at all the goods being bought from asia because of cheap labor. why do you think it costs $50K/year to make a decent living now? and why pay you $6.00/hour when a korean will do the same work for $4.00/day?

Most of the people who are in the manufacturing fields, competing with imports, already make more than the minimum wage.

Most people who make the minimum wage are employed in the service industries, not affected by the cost of manufactured imports.

farfromglorified

I'll respect a minimum wage law as just bad form when it's tied to a minimum merit law. Until then, it's basically theft.

surferdude

farfromglorified wrote:

I'll respect a minimum wage law as just bad form when it's tied to a minimum merit law. Until then, it's basically theft.

Please don't try to muddy up this thread by making sense.

This is the 21st century. We no longer believe with rights go responsibilities. We only have rights, and we don't care if our rights infringe on you and your freedoms. If you have a problem with our rights then you are an evil person. Most likely you operate a profitable business where you employ people. Truely an evil person in the 21st century.

RainDog

I think the minimum wage increase is going to completely and irrevocably tank the U.S. economy, essentially turning us into a third world country.

You know, just like it did in 1938, 1939, 1945, 1950, 1956, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1990, 1991, 1996, and 1997.

onelongsong

qtegirl wrote:

Most of the people who are in the manufacturing fields, competing with imports, already make more than the minimum wage.

Most people who make the minimum wage are employed in the service industries, not affected by the cost of manufactured imports.

i forgot to look where you're from but i own a manufacturing company north of chicago. i've got 2 guys that program the machines and 20 mexicans working for minumum wage running them. 1 man runs at least 2 machines except the bar feed machines in which case he runs 3. i spent 22 years in the manufacturing business making everything from printer rollers to aircraft parts. the other manufacturers i worked with (farming out work to them) did the same.

jeffbr

RainDog wrote:

I think the minimum wage increase is going to completely and irrevocably tank the U.S. economy, essentially turning us into a third world country.

You know, just like it did in 1938, 1939, 1945, 1950, 1956, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1990, 1991, 1996, and 1997.

So we should go ahead and do it because it won't kill us? That sounds like a strong endorsement.

desandrews

RainDog wrote:

I think the minimum wage increase is going to completely and irrevocably tank the U.S. economy, essentially turning us into a third world country.

You know, just like it did in 1938, 1939, 1945, 1950, 1956, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1990, 1991, 1996, and 1997.

Well, at least you can't be accused of participating in a serious discussion.

My statement above is uncalled for. This has nothing to do with you RainDog.

RainDog

desandrews wrote:

Well, at least you can't be accused of participating in a serious discussion.

Considering your opening post, I think that goes for both of us.

desandrews wrote:

My statement above is uncalled for. This has nothing to do with you RainDog.

No offense taken. Now, if you'd've written "Well, at least you can't be accused of participating in a serious discussion, you no-account, asinine, moronic, two-faced jerkwad," then maybe.

desandrews

RainDog wrote:

Considering your opening post, I think that goes for both of us.

Exactly why it was uncalled for, not where I want the discussion to go.

RainDog wrote:

No offense taken. Now, if you'd've written "Well, at least you can't be accused of participating in a serious discussion, you no-account, asinine, moronic, two-faced jerkwad," then maybe.

Thanks.

RainDog

jeffbr wrote:

So we should go ahead and do it because it won't kill us? That sounds like a strong endorsement.

It's more of a deflection of the idea that the minimum wage increase will wreck our economy. My endorsement is that as corporate and CEO profits and wages skyrocket, overall wages have stagnated. Minimum wage increases tend to cause overall wage increases - particularly in unionized jobs - and is therefore a way to remedy this top heavy problem when companies aren't willing to do it themselves.

farfromglorified

RainDog wrote:

It's more of a deflection of the idea that the minimum wage increase will wreck our economy. My endorsement is that as corporate and CEO profits and wages skyrocket, overall wages have stagnated.

Since when are CEO profits and wages tied to overall wages? If a company loses money for a year and the CEO takes no salary, would you demand that his employees do the same?

Minimum wage increases tend to cause overall wage increases - particularly in unionized jobs - and is therefore a way to remedy this top heavy problem when companies aren't willing to do it themselves.

Wouldn't the problem also be remedied by employees demanding fair pay from the employers and withholding their labor until they get it? Are they also not "willing to do it themselves"?

jeffbr

RainDog wrote:

It's more of a deflection of the idea that the minimum wage increase will wreck our economy. My endorsement is that as corporate and CEO profits and wages skyrocket, overall wages have stagnated. Minimum wage increases tend to cause overall wage increases - particularly in unionized jobs - and is therefore a way to remedy this top heavy problem when companies aren't willing to do it themselves.

Ok, that it clear. I am not one of those who thinks it will wreck the economy either. I also think, and it sounds like you do to, that a minimum wage increase will not directly affect many poor heads of households. But you make a good argument that there will be a ripple effect through all workers' wages. I don't doubt that.

But all of this is irrelevant to me, since I think FFG stated the reason for my strong opposition to a minimum wage - theft. Your last sentence summed up exactly why I am opposed to it. The government is somehow deciding that an employer must pay an employee more than they're worth, as if the government 1)can somehow devine worth and 2)has any legitimate role in valuations of employees.