Walter Reed / Universal Health Care

jeffbr

RainDog wrote:

So, aside from the fact that a federal employee is the same as a private employee (it's the management that's the problem - and at Walter Reed, it was private), what federal employees are you talking about? Janitors?

Good one. Who owns it?

RainDog

jeffbr wrote:

Good one. Who owns it?

If you want me to say "the Federal Government," fine. But that's not the issue. The issue is management, and it was private, and it was horrible. By placing the blame on the "owners," all you're really doing is strengthening my belief that conservatives should never be in charge of the federal government. Too much "buck passing." If this administration had actually done it's duty as "owners," (as past administrations have) rather than simply saying "gee, it sure was under some bad management, there. Glad it's not my problem" then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

jeffbr

RainDog wrote:

If you want me to say "the Federal Government," fine. But that's not the issue. The issue is management, and it was private, and it was horrible. By placing the blame on the "owners," all you're really doing is strengthening my belief that conservatives should never be in charge of the federal government. Too much "buck passing." If this administration had actually done it's duty as "owners," (as past administrations have) rather than simply saying "gee, it sure was under some bad management, there. Glad it's not my problem" then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I don't get the conservative vs liberal buck passing distinction. You've completely lost me there. As far as I can tell that is status quo for either party. I completly agree that the government fucked up. That is a given.

If you think it is just the janitors who are federal employees, ask yourself why the people at the top were sacked. They were federal employees. This is a federal facility, run by federal employees with services outsourced to the private sector. Some statist decides that if you outsource some functions you've suddently privatized the hospital. It hasn't been privatized. It is still a federal facility.

Abookamongstthemany

jeffbr wrote:

I don't get the conservative vs liberal buck passing distinction. You've completely lost me there. As far as I can tell that is status quo for either party. I completly agree that the government fucked up. That is a given.

If you think it is just the janitors who are federal employees, ask yourself why the people at the top were sacked. They were federal employees. This is a federal facility, run by federal employees with services outsourced to the private sector. Some statist decides that if you outsource some functions you've suddently privatized the hospital. It hasn't been privatized. It is still a federal facility.

It's the work and how the place was being ran that caused the uproar. These jobs were privatized. You're avoiding this to try to save face for your privatization argument. Everything isn't all daisies and sunshine as soon as you privatize things like you would have us believe.

RainDog

jeffbr wrote:

I don't get the conservative vs liberal buck passing distinction. You've completely lost me there. As far as I can tell that is status quo for either party. I completly agree that the government fucked up. That is a given.

If you think it is just the janitors who are federal employees, ask yourself why the people at the top were sacked. They were federal employees. This is a federal facility, run by federal employees with services outsourced to the private sector. Some statist decides that if you outsource some functions you've suddently privatized the hospital. It hasn't been privatized. It is still a federal facility.

The management of the facility was privatized. The conservative vs. liberal crack was based on the idea that a liberal government wouldn't have privatized the management of the facility and therefore, whether they tried to pass the buck or not, would be more directly accountable for the problems if there were any. It's all "what-if", but as I understand it, Walter Reed used to be a model for good hospital care. Then, this administration, in an ostensibly conservative move, privatized the management of the facility - because obviously the federal government was doing a horrible job, even if no one else could see it, because they always do a horrible job; and even if they aren't doing a horrible job, a private company could do better because, you know, they're private and all and private means great - and the whole thing went to shit.

Basically, what I'm saying is this isn't evidence that universal health care would be a failure, as was implied by the opening post in this thread.

jeffbr

RainDog wrote:

Basically, what I'm saying is this isn't evidence that universal health care would be a failure, as was implied by the opening post in this thread.

Totally fair point. And I'm only arguing that this pseudo/hybrid privatization of Walter Reed is not evidence that privatization doesn't work. There are enough examples of top notch private hospitals to demonstrate that.

RainDog

jeffbr wrote:

Totally fair point. And I'm only arguing that this pseudo/hybrid privatization of Walter Reed is not evidence that privatization doesn't work. There are enough examples of top notch private hospitals to demonstrate that.

I'll agree with you about the hybridization; it's a situation where the government is writing checks to companies so that they'll handle everything, and then never looking into whether or not those companies are actually doing their jobs. Of course, that's about as private as Walter Reed can get. What makes it worse, though, is that this is a medical facility for soldiers. Soldiers are less likely to complain about the situation, as many believe that it would be a dereliction of duty to criticize in a time of war; so the very fact that these are soldiers makes it easier for companies to get away with this shit. But that's a different tangent.

The money for this care is going to come from the government either way - it has too, this is a war expense - so it goes without saying that the hospital cannot be completely private. Were the government more directly involved, i.e. were Walter Reed less privatized, Walter Reed would likely still be the model it once was. In many major ways, other hospitals are a completely different animal.

hailhailkc

Universal healthcare would do nothing more than drive up privatized healthcare costs even more. It's not like privatized healthcare would disappear altogether if universal healthcare was implemented. More likely than not, you would end up with a universal system bogged down by lower standards of care, incompetent doctors, and long waiting periods...while privatized healthcare premiums would skyrocket so high that the middle class could no longer even THINK about affording it...and it would TRULY become a benefit that only the wealthy could afford.

Oh yeah, and let's not even talk about hiking up the tax rate another 15 or 20% per year to pay for this shit. If that's the case, I'd have to GET, and get CURED OF, prostate cancer every frickin' year just to get my dollars worth.

Yeah, great idea. We're already raped at 30% of our gross income anyway...which is spent on a war that none of YOU want...but now you want us to give them ANOTHER 20% ON TOP OF THAT.

I'm sure they'll spend it wisely. :rolleyes:

desandrews

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

It's the work and how the place was being ran that caused the uproar. These jobs were privatized. You're avoiding this to try to save face for your privatization argument. Everything isn't all daisies and sunshine as soon as you privatize things like you would have us believe.

I don't think privatization magically makes anything great. I think choice and competition breed efficiency and forces individuals to do what's in the interest of the consumer because they have the power to take their business elsewhere.

I wonder how it was decided to "privatize" the facility. Was there any competition involved? If the administration makes the privatization a virtual monopoly it's not representative of anything you see in the free market today and is just some fucked up hybrid beast as was mentioned earlier.