The Fair Tax
desandrews
Posts: 143
There was an amazing story yesterday that got absolutely no traction whatsoever, though it should have. The Financial Times reported that for the first time since before World War I ... that's World War I, not World War II ... Europe passed the United States in the total value of all of the outstanding stocks in domestic stock markets. The Financial Times reports that some of the factors that are contributing to Europe's emergence as the world's leading capital marketplace are the rise of the Euro against the Dollar, the growth of East European markets and increased profitability of European corporations.
One of the driving factors here is the profitability edge the European corporations have because of the difference in tax structures. The United States punishes corporations through its tax system, while many European nations create a much more favorable tax climate. There is a reason why Chrysler moved to Europe when it merged with Daimler instead of Daimler moving to America. I've seen research which shows that the tax treatment operating out of Germany created an 14% advantage.
Now I know that many Americans .. perhaps most ... just love to hear their politicians talking about taxing businesses and corporations. After all, they think, every dollar of taxes these corporations pay will be a dollar we don't have to pay. Those of you not educated in government schools will know this to be a fallacy. Taxes, among other things, roll downhill. Every single penny of taxes paid to the Imperial Federal Government of the United States by businesses and corporations are rolled down the money line to the ultimate consumer; and the ultimate consumer is the individual. Everything you buy in the retail marketplace contains that embedded tax ... averaging about 22%.
OK ... this brings us to the FairTax, and now you see another reason why we need this tax reform now and not later. For those of you new to the FairTax and to Nealz Nuze, I'm not going to explain this tax reform plan right here. You can read about it at the website for Americans for Fair Taxation, or you can click here to order The FairTax Book from Barnes & Noble. com. When the FairTax is implemented America becomes the world's number one tax haven for business as well as for individuals. Businesses large and small will be able to operate in America with absolutely no federal tax component on capital or labor. Business leaders around the world have made it clear that if the United States were to implement the FairTax they would immediately make plans to locate their next manufacturing plant, distribution center or production facility right here -- right here in the U.S.
Right now we have a political party running the Congress that is dedicated to the cause of raising taxes on both businesses and business owners. The Democrats are determined to preserve their control of the Congress ... and the way to do that is to buy enough votes - to make enough people dependent on them and their government - that losing control would be next to impossible. To do that the Democrats need money. Lots of it. They will gladly sacrifice the dominance of America in the world of free enterprise in order to maintain that power.
Those of you who have any problem whatsoever with the emergence of Europe as the world's leader in business might want to get on board. Click here http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=action_petition to sign the FairTax petition. We're trying to get 100,000 signatures by tax day. Learn about the FairTax. Study the website, read the book. Talk to your elected representatives. Tell them you are not only familiar with the FairTax, but you are also familiar with the lies being told to discredit the idea. Become proactive. America deserves to be number one. With our current tax system we're going to lose that race.
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From Nealz Nuze today... http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
I believe in the Fair Tax plan and I'm headed there now to sign the petition. No more hidden taxes, no tax burden on the poorest, no special interest groups lobbying for tax breaks (hello oil companies) and best of all, April 15th is just another day!
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=action_petition
One of the driving factors here is the profitability edge the European corporations have because of the difference in tax structures. The United States punishes corporations through its tax system, while many European nations create a much more favorable tax climate. There is a reason why Chrysler moved to Europe when it merged with Daimler instead of Daimler moving to America. I've seen research which shows that the tax treatment operating out of Germany created an 14% advantage.
Now I know that many Americans .. perhaps most ... just love to hear their politicians talking about taxing businesses and corporations. After all, they think, every dollar of taxes these corporations pay will be a dollar we don't have to pay. Those of you not educated in government schools will know this to be a fallacy. Taxes, among other things, roll downhill. Every single penny of taxes paid to the Imperial Federal Government of the United States by businesses and corporations are rolled down the money line to the ultimate consumer; and the ultimate consumer is the individual. Everything you buy in the retail marketplace contains that embedded tax ... averaging about 22%.
OK ... this brings us to the FairTax, and now you see another reason why we need this tax reform now and not later. For those of you new to the FairTax and to Nealz Nuze, I'm not going to explain this tax reform plan right here. You can read about it at the website for Americans for Fair Taxation, or you can click here to order The FairTax Book from Barnes & Noble. com. When the FairTax is implemented America becomes the world's number one tax haven for business as well as for individuals. Businesses large and small will be able to operate in America with absolutely no federal tax component on capital or labor. Business leaders around the world have made it clear that if the United States were to implement the FairTax they would immediately make plans to locate their next manufacturing plant, distribution center or production facility right here -- right here in the U.S.
Right now we have a political party running the Congress that is dedicated to the cause of raising taxes on both businesses and business owners. The Democrats are determined to preserve their control of the Congress ... and the way to do that is to buy enough votes - to make enough people dependent on them and their government - that losing control would be next to impossible. To do that the Democrats need money. Lots of it. They will gladly sacrifice the dominance of America in the world of free enterprise in order to maintain that power.
Those of you who have any problem whatsoever with the emergence of Europe as the world's leader in business might want to get on board. Click here http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=action_petition to sign the FairTax petition. We're trying to get 100,000 signatures by tax day. Learn about the FairTax. Study the website, read the book. Talk to your elected representatives. Tell them you are not only familiar with the FairTax, but you are also familiar with the lies being told to discredit the idea. Become proactive. America deserves to be number one. With our current tax system we're going to lose that race.
***********
From Nealz Nuze today... http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
I believe in the Fair Tax plan and I'm headed there now to sign the petition. No more hidden taxes, no tax burden on the poorest, no special interest groups lobbying for tax breaks (hello oil companies) and best of all, April 15th is just another day!
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=action_petition
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...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well, they could have worked for Chrysler/Daimler...
H&R block is done, Turbo Tax etc, but Accountants and CPA's?
They can make a hell of a lot more money investing the extra cash people have actually saved, and they can work on other things like efficiency etc.
I hope Neal's other political beliefs will not keep people away from this really good idea.
It took 80 years to screw it up, it will probably take 80 to fix it that's fine, but I know of no other more benificial noble pursuit than changing the tax code for the betterment of all peoples. This is foundation, every other noble pursuit comes from this infrastructure.
what other political beliefs? and yeah, our tax code is insane. can we get a mulligan on that?
from Fairtax.org
The FairTax proposal is a comprehensive plan to replace federal income and payroll based taxes, including personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes. The FairTax proposal integrates such features as a progressive national retail sales tax, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue replacement, and a prebate to ensure that no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The FairTax allows Americans to keep 100 percent of their paychecks (minus any state income taxes), ends corporate taxes and compliance costs hidden in the retail cost of goods and services, and fully funds the federal government while fulfilling the promise of Social Security and Medicare.
Americans take home their whole paychecks.
Not only do more Americans have jobs, but they also take home 100 percent of their paychecks (except where state income taxes apply). No federal income taxes or payroll taxes are withheld from paychecks, pensions, or Social Security checks.
No federal sales tax up to the poverty level means progressivity like today's tax system.
To ensure no American pays tax on necessities, the FairTax plan provides a prepaid, monthly rebate (prebate) for every registered household to cover the consumption tax spent on necessities up to the federal poverty level. This, along with several other features, is how the FairTax completely untaxes the poor, lowers the tax burden on most, while making the overall rate progressive. However, the FairTax is progressive based on lifestyle/spending choices, rather than simply punishing those taxpayers who are successful. Do you see how much freer life is with the FairTax instead of the income tax?
No tax on used goods. The amount you pay to fund the government is totally visible.
With the FairTax you are only taxed once on any good or service. If you choose to buy used goods - used car, used home, used appliances - you do not pay the FairTax. If, as a business owner or farmer, you buy something for strictly business purposes (not for personal consumption), you pay no consumption tax. When you decide what to buy and how much to spend, you see exactly how much you are contributing to the government with each purchase.
Retail prices no longer hide corporate taxes or their compliance costs, which drive up costs for those who can least afford to pay.
Did you know that hidden income taxes and the cost of complying with them currently make up 20 percent or more percent of all retail prices? It's true. According to Dr. Dale Jorgenson of Harvard University, hidden income taxes are passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices for everything you buy. If competition does not allow prices to rise, corporations lower labor costs, again hurting those who can least afford to lose their jobs. Finally, if prices are as high as competition allows and labor costs are as low as practical, profits/dividends to shareholders are driven down, thereby hurting retirement savings for moms-and-pops and pension funds invested in Corporate America. With the FairTax, the sham of corporate taxation ends, competition drives prices down, more people in America have jobs, and retirement/pension funds see improved performance.
The income tax exports our jobs, rather than our products. The FairTax brings jobs home.
Most importantly, the FairTax does not burden U.S. exports the way the current income tax system does. The FairTax removes the cost of corporate taxes and compliance costs from the cost of U.S. exports, putting U.S. exports on a level playing field with foreign competitors. Lower prices sharply increase demand for U.S. exports, thereby increasing job creation in U.S. manufacturing sectors. At home, imports are subject to the same FairTax rate as domestically produced goods. Not only does the FairTax put U.S. products sold here on the same tax footing as foreign imports, but the dramatic lowering of compliance costs in comparison to other countries' value-added taxes also gives U.S. products a definitive pricing advantage which foreign tax systems cannot match.
The FairTax strategy is revenue neutrality:
Neither raise nor lower taxes so consumer costs remain stable.
The FairTax pays for all current government operations, including Social Security and Medicare. Government revenues are more stable and predictable than with the federal income tax because consumption is a more constant revenue base than is income.
If you were in a 23-percent income tax bracket, the federal government would take $23 out of your paycheck for every $100 you made. With the FairTax, if the federal government gets $23 out of every $100 spent in America, the same total revenue is delivered to the federal government. This is revenue neutrality. So, instead of paycheck-earning Americans paying 7.65 percent of their paychecks in Social Security/Medicare payroll taxes, plus an average of 18 percent of their paychecks in federal income tax, for a total of about 25.65 percent, consumers in America pay only $23 out of every $100. Or about 30 percent at the cash register when they elect to spend on new goods or services for their own personal consumption. And this tax is collected only on spending above the federal poverty level, providing important progressivity.
Tax criminals - don't make criminals out of honest taxpayers.
Today, the IRS will admit to 25 percent noncompliance with the code. FairTax.org will be generous and simply take the position that this is likely a conservative estimate of the underground economy. However, this does not take into account the criminal/drug/porn economy, which equally conservative estimates put at one trillion dollars of untaxed activity. The FairTax does tax this - criminals love to flash that cash at retail - while continuing to provide the federal penalties so effective in bringing such miscreants to justice. The substantial decrease in points of compliance - from every wage earner, investor, and retiree, down to only retailers - also allows enforcement to concentrate on following the money to criminal activity, rather than making potential criminals out of every taxpayer struggling to decipher the current code.
What is the FairTax plan?
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue replacement, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment. This nonpartisan legislation (HR 25) abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities. The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.
What is Americans For Fair Taxation (FairTax.org)?
FairTax.org is a nonprofit, nonpartisan, grassroots organization solely dedicated to replacing the current tax system. The organization has hundreds of thousands of members and volunteers nationwide. Its plan supports sound economic research, education of citizens and community leaders, and grassroots mobilization efforts. For more information visit the web page: http://www.fairtax.org/ or call 1-800-FAIRTAX.
Neil, while being maybe the most relavant and listenable talk show host in America, is decidedly anti democrat, which won't fly well here, and he's also pro Iraq war also won't fly well here. Generally though, for the most part he's quite libertarian, and generally a nice very intelligent guy. I just don't want people to be put off on the Fair Tax, thinking that it's neals thing. He's just the messenger.
i like the sound of all this, but im not sure how this works. they're saying you pay sales tax on all purchases and the government returns a lump sum to everyone based on the estimated sales tax needed to purchase necessities? is that what i'm getting?
Most voters are smart enough to realize that the Republicans have been in power for the last twelve years and they never once attempted to implement any sort of Fair Tax - or really any tax reform at all, aside from simply lowering the rates (while increasing spending). Also, judging by the last election, most voters aren't any more opposed to the Democratic approach to taxation than the Republican one. Likely because they differ very little (where each wants to spend the money is where the difference lay). So, when those voters read this, they'll get to the part where the blame lies with the Democrats, realize that that's simply not true, and dismiss the whole proposition out of hand as a standard Conservative Republican hit piece agains 'dem damn dirty Dems.
A better way to go about this would be to make an appeal to the majority. Unfortunately, that's unlikely now, as the Fair Tax proposal is now tied to the term "conservative" - which, for better or worse, is tied to the term "Republican." Of course, it wouldn't do much better to tie it to "liberal" and "Democrat"; though that's currently the government majority, so it might get a little more traction. Instead, it should've been proposed as an idea without ideology; as simply a different method of taxation that carries different, possibly better, advantages.
But no. Instead it's insulting. There are areas where liberals and conservatives will never see eye to eye - but tax reform isn't one of them (again, obvious exceptions exist).
yes, for more info check out the "prebate" section. This will be handled likely by social security numbers. Everyone gets the same check to recover the cost of tax on necessities. I can't remember what agency sets these levels now but it is already in place.
essentially what is not said was that they believe since the embedded taxes on goods will not be included in the price, they expect the end price of goods to be about the same as they are now, allowing this prebate to be "banked" if so chosen by the lowest on the totem pole, not to mention you don't pay taxes on used goods, making places like Goodwill, even more helpful (and used homes less expensive)
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PS: The Fair Tax is neither a republican nor a democratic proposal
This is advantageous for everyone, it may not be as obvious to some liberals who favor punitive taxes, but I truely believe it will help the economy as a whole and bring manufacturing jobs home, which will certainly help people at the bottom. The better the economy does with the more investment, the more jobs are available across the board.
I'm not into screwing poor people. I know it sucks at the bottom. I really honestly believe this will help everyone especially the most burdened with this current system...namely the middle class.
If you are halfway intelligent, you can really do well for yourself under the Fair Tax.
Liberal is not a bad word, (libertarian) I'm here because I like you guys and your opinions. I agree with you on almost all social issues, I just believe this will help the economy across the board.
I don't think this has to be pimped by a conservative or a liberal. It sure makes sense to people struggling with their tax forms though.
Oh and one more thing. We have a Flat Tax... since 1986 we tried, and this is the result of that.
Making taxes out in the open makes people interested, in how that money is being spent, that is important no matter WHO is in the White House.
Please for the love of all that is good and holy do not tie Fair Tax to Republicans, Conservatives, Liberals, or Democrats. Most of the politicians talking about it from either party are completely incorrect. The system they have now, helps those in power.
perhaps not, but it is painted that way by the rhetoric of the article writer. like raindog pointed out, they were going strong until they slip in a few underhanded shots at the left, who are honestly no worse than the right in terms of tax and spend habits. i think a proposal like this would enjoy quite a bit of support among liberals too, as long as it is not framed as a "well you guys fucked it up for all of us, so no we have to fix your mess" kind of thing. if people really want this, they've got to submerge their agenda when pushing this initiative.
yeah that's why I said what I said about Neal and hoping people could get past his politics. He didn't invent the fair tax.
This is taken from Neals Nuze. Neil Boorts wrote the Fair Tax Book and used the popularity of his show and his humorous style to sell it.
John Linder is a republican who authored HR 25 but he did not invent by himself the Fair Tax proposal and he wants this to be a bipartisan effort.
Generally yeah, this is more interesting to conservatives, but it really does benifit everyone. They have rebuttals posted on the page.
the numbers just dont add up. right?
the thought of me keeping an entire paycheck send chills down my back
maybe we'd get some real dramatic spending cuts finally.
The fair tax is completely revenue neutral. Not one dime less is collected.
If anything more money will be coming in under the fair tax than is coming in now.
The fact that what we spend is out in the open could mean public pressure to reduce government spending but as written, in the current bill HR25 the Fair Tax is completely revenue neutral to all of our current Federal Taxes.
I seriously considered trying to take all of the partisan bits out of what he wrote but decided against it. I figure those here are intelligent enough to look through that and study the issue a little bit, but I do understand your point and think Pacomc79 has already addressed it well.
That's why what I wrote included references to relieving the tax burden on the poorest, ending tax breaks to big companies with the highest paying lobbyists etc. I was hoping to rope you back in with that but maybe it was tough to make it that far after seeing what you referenced.
He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian that fully supports what he calls the War on Islamic Fascism. He spends a considerable amount of time bashing Liberal policies and the Democrats. He also spends a considerable amount of time (not as much though) bashing Republicans, particularly when they do things that go against his libertarian beliefs, so here within the last few years, that's been a lot.
He's not as easy to pigeon hole as you'd (not you particularly) like to think. He's pro-choice (but thinks Roe V. Wade is a complete failure for constitutional reasons), he could care less about gay marriage, he has declared the War on Drugs a complete failure and asks why, if someone wants to sit in their house and smoke some chronic they can't do that. He thinks anytime any spending initiative is signed into law everyone voting for it should have to sign their names to a declaration that says something to the effect of "I believe that it is more important to the greater good of society to tax the citizens to pay for X rather than allowing them to keep the money to care for their family and their future." I personally like that one.
Without a doubt there are both liberal and conservative arguments against the Drug War, for gay marriage, and in regards to abortion - just as there are both liberal and conservative arguments for the Drug War and against abortion (the anti-gay marriage issue seems pretty grounded in social conservativism, though).
That was my wording not his, I said it was something to that effect. I was just trying to generalize, point out the gist of it. You're assuming way too much I think. You can read that declaration, even with my crappy wording, and answer yes and not be considered a "crazy liberal." Is it more important to provide roads to drive on, yes, is it more important to provide spinach subsides, no. Had I changed the phrase "their families" to "themselves" would that be better? If so, do that, it's still the same point that people in government tend to think they can take our money without being accountable for providing something useful to the greater society. Democrats or Republicans, it doesn't matter. That's just one method to force public accountability on everyone in an elected office.
But we disgress... The Fair Tax is where it's at. Wouldn't it be nice to know how much you're actually paying in taxes rather than having 3 or 4 levels of taxation embedded into the price of a product? Hell, do we even realize that the government makes more money off of a gallon of gasoline than the oil companies themselves do? Is that right?
Heres the reality.. it lowers the tax rate of the rich, and raises the rate on the poor.
Thats the bottom line.
The only reason it has more than scant public support is because Americans are tought from birth that if you work hard, you can make it rich. And when they make it rich, they dont want to be "unfaily" taxed.
But the reality is, in this country, societies biggest ill (beside social conservatism) is income disparity and the social stresses it brings. The "Fair" Tax does nothing but increase the problem.
If you dont believe me, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_Map_Gini_coefficient_with_legend_2.png
So brining thirty-five (the income tax rate on the rich) closer to zero (the income tax rate of the poor) would not, in your opinion, qualify as "fair"??? I'm curious, what's your definition of "fair"?
Can you explain to me what portion of the Fair Tax plan will shift the burden to the poor and away from the rich? Specifically, considering that the poorest of the poor today are taxed for Social Security and Medicare on every dollar they make but under the Fair Tax plan will have absolutely no tax burden at all. Not one cent.
I have another question. What is the official purpose of taxation? Is it to provide services to the society or to backhandedly attempt to decrease income disparity?
Easy! Warren Buffet pays 35% now. He would pay 23%(arbitrary) with the Flat Tax.
He would get a tax cut. Theres no doubt about that, is there?
(Mind you, he can afford it)
if the total income stays the same, and the Wealthy pay less, then quite obviously the POOR pay more. How simple can that be?
Here's what Mr Buffett thinks of the Flat Tax, btw:
"I wouldn’t support it. We have, in my view, a taxation system that’s much too flat already. If you look at the payroll tax—which is over 12% now, and that applies on the first $80,000 or $90,000 of income—Bill and I pay practically none of that in relation to our income. For the people that work for us, their tax rate in many cases is the same or even higher than my own, since the rate on capital gains and dividends was cut to 15%. What has gone on in this country in recent years is a huge benefit to the very rich and not that much relief to people down below. Frankly, I think that Bill and I should have a higher tax rate on the income we get. We pay less than half the rate that I was paying 25 years ago when I was making a lot less money. They have really taken care of the rich."
the poor still have no tax liability period, this is taken care of by the prebate, I fail to see how taxes are increased on the poor?
Currently the biggest problem with Americans in general poor and semi wealthy or upper middle class is that they spend all of their money and live in increasing states of debt. The fair tax encourages savings. It enables you to actually save your money and not be penalized for it as you are now.
Forbes idea was the Flat Tax. We have a flat tax now. Flat taxes clearly do not work over time.
The obvious regression of a national retail sales tax is offset by the Prebate. That's the exact reason the prebate is included.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#39
I'm going to plagiarize and then slightly modify a very wise question from desandrews:
What is the official purpose of taxation? Is it to provide services to the society or to backhandedly attempt to [encourage savings]?
Do you believe in Social justice or "Dog eat Dog".
And obviously you feel differently than I.
The purpose of taxation is for the government to levy funds to serve the public.
Anything I have said regarding savings is a by product of a new taxation system.
I figure I'm going to pay 5500 to 6600 bucks a year regardless of the system. The fair tax simply drags it out in the open rather than hiding it in witholdings. How many Americans actually know what they pay in taxes each year? Most talk about "take home pay" and think that they "got money back" after their tax returns.
if you only pay 5500 a year in Federal taxes, then you really dont make a ton of money (even with a mortgage and kids, you cant make more than 75K)
You will ABSOLUTELY pay more under the "Fair" tax. Thats called math.
Such a big proponent now?
So let me see if I can understand something. To you, forcibly stealing money that people earn in order to simply give it away to someone else, regardless of what they've done to earn it, is "social justice" and not "dog eat dog"????