"War" on drugs

HailHailVitalogyHailHailVitalogy Posts: 5,428
edited December 2007 in A Moving Train
OK so after watching the Zeitgiest movie I was thinking situations in America that could be fraud as well

How about drugs?

Makes sense...follow

- US creates and grows drugs such as weed, coke, estacy, etc
- agents sell the shit out in mass quantity
- people get addicted so those addicted are distracted from what the US govt is truely doing
- people are put in jail for selling/using drugs and pay legal fees that go to the govt
- society believes that the war on drugs is one of our biggest problems so most of the attention is focused on the war on drugs
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  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    It’s difficult to say that the public is intentionally being distracted from real issues, because to say that you are inferring that there is an underground conspiracy to control public opinion. The war on drugs is an example of why these kind of theories are perpetuated. To anyone that spends even a small amount of time researching the (lack of) success in the WOD, or the consequences of it, it’s obvious that it does not, and never will work as a deterrent. This leads to the obvious question – if the WOD is a documented failure – why is the federal government so opposed to ending it?

    Everyone’s answer will be personal conjecture, which leads to all kinds of theories, right and wrong. Does a sedated population benefit the government? Absolutely…. Is the government intentionally allowing drugs to become more prevalent to facilitate that sedation? Who knows….I think most likely it is a case of an off-the-books “cash cow” that the government has become addicted to, not some form of mind control.

    The CIA is said to be behind the crack epidemic in urban areas in the 80’s. The Iran-Contra affair was largely tied to drug money. Foreign aid to S.American countries to fight their own war on drugs allows the US to influence policy in those countries, essentially bribing officials. Hell, the US even uses the WOD to pressure Canada in trade agreements. Poppy production in Afghanistan was way down before the war started, and has skyrocketed since NATO forces have taken control of the country. Read into that what you like, but it’s getting out of the country somehow. Air America pt.II?

    Essentially, I view the war on drugs as a funding source for all of the dirty tricks the US govt plays around the world. It is a multi-billion (trillion?) dollar a year industry that completely lacks transparency and accountability. I’m sure this is what people don’t take into account when making the old argument for legalization and taxation of drugs. Between on-the-books tax funding for all the war’s propaganda programs, additional police and security funding, property seizure laws, etc. as well as political advantage gained thru bribery of foreign states, money and kickbacks from the privatized prison industry, tobacco, alcohol and pharma lobbies,…..taxing the sale of drugs would probably translate to an overall loss for government coffers.
  • Didi you catch the bit on that CIA plane that crashed with bags and bags of coke on board?

    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. coincidence? Probably not really all that much of one in this case.
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  • The war on drugs is just another form of social control. It's not some conspiracy created by the government. People wanna get high. That is undeniable. People were experimenting with this stuff long before there was a government.
  • OK so after watching the Zeitgiest movie I was thinking situations in America that could be fraud as well

    How about drugs?

    Makes sense...follow

    - US creates and grows drugs such as weed, coke, estacy, etc
    - agents sell the shit out in mass quantity
    - people get addicted so those addicted are distracted from what the US govt is truely doing
    - people are put in jail for selling/using drugs and pay legal fees that go to the govt
    - society believes that the war on drugs is one of our biggest problems so most of the attention is focused on the war on drugs


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  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    Everyone knows that the US Gov has a track record for peddling dope, but just because people do stuff that is illegal doesn't mean that a conspiracy is keeping it illegal on purpose.

    That would be like saying that underage drinking happens because the CIA is dealing fake IDs to high schoolers.
  • sponger wrote:
    Everyone knows that the US Gov has a track record for peddling dope, but just because people do stuff that is illegal doesn't mean that a conspiracy is keeping it illegal on purpose.

    That would be like saying that underage drinking happens because the CIA is dealing fake IDs to high schoolers.

    Unfortunately as the Ollie case clearly showed the CIA have been running drugs.

    Also in Afghanistan this year they are expecting one of the largest poppy harvest ever. How can that be with the might of the US patrolling everywhere? Large fields of poppies in the desert are fairly easily spotted from satellites.
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  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    sponger wrote:
    Everyone knows that the US Gov has a track record for peddling dope, but just because people do stuff that is illegal doesn't mean that a conspiracy is keeping it illegal on purpose..
    It IS being kept illegal on purpose...Again, if the WOD is a proven failure, why the resistance to change? ....drug policy is heavily influenced, if not decided, by people with an interest in keeping them illegal. Call that a conspiracy if you want...but it's fact. And btw, your analogy is weak.


    Roland - hadn't seen that story....not covered by any msm sources at all....but all over the interweb. huh. The plane was said to be chartered for rendition...drop someone off to be tortured, pick up your 5 tons of blow. woot!

    Then there's Gary Webb, the guy that broke the story of CIA involvement in the coke trade....who took his own life shortly after by shooting himself in the head.......twice.
  • It IS being kept illegal on purpose...Again, if the WOD is a proven failure, why the resistance to change? ....drug policy is heavily influenced, if not decided, by people with an interest in keeping them illegal. Call that a conspiracy if you want...but it's fact. And btw, your analogy is weak.


    Roland - hadn't seen that story....not covered by any msm sources at all....but all over the interweb. huh. The plane was said to be chartered for rendition...drop someone off to be tortured, pick up your 5 tons of blow. woot!

    Then there's Gary Webb, the guy that broke the story of CIA involvement in the coke trade....who took his own life shortly after by shooting himself in the head.......twice.
    Yeah, it's a conspiracy in the sense that the government has a hand in the drug trade, and that drugs are kept illegal as another way to control people (not to protect them). But they are in no way controlling the drug trade, nor did they create it. They just use it to their advantage where and when they can.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Saturnal wrote:
    Yeah, it's a conspiracy in the sense that the government has a hand in the drug trade, and that drugs are kept illegal as another way to control people (not to protect them). But they are in no way controlling the drug trade, nor did they create it. They just use it to their advantage where and when they can.

    Exactly right. It is an opportunity, just like the war on terror, to take away liberties, and exert more controls and restrictions.

    The problem with many on this board is many try to spin the most fantastic and outrageous tale, and it completely hides the real issues. The original post is something that Oliver Stone might create when doing a fictional film. Your post is probably much closer to reality.
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  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Saturnal wrote:
    Yeah, it's a conspiracy in the sense that the government has a hand in the drug trade, and that drugs are kept illegal as another way to control people (not to protect them). But they are in no way controlling the drug trade, nor did they create it. They just use it to their advantage where and when they can.
    Social control? Now THAT sounds like a conspiracy ;)
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    It's about money. The government prefers these drugs not to be legal, they brainwash the public,law enforcement about how evil these pot smokers and whatever else are and everyone runs with it.

    I remember the cops faces when they took me in on a 1.7 gram pot&pipe charge, you would've thought they caught usama bin ladin, they were that happy. i still don't know why I was slammed against their car hood. oh yeah I asked for a warrant before they searched my car. but that's perhaps another issue.

    You pay them, hrs later they let you go, then you gotta go to court and you got court fees, I think mine was 300? can't remember I was high, anyway someone/some system is making lots of money off of the people.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    Unfortunately as the Ollie case clearly showed the CIA have been running drugs.

    Also in Afghanistan this year they are expecting one of the largest poppy harvest ever. How can that be with the might of the US patrolling everywhere? Large fields of poppies in the desert are fairly easily spotted from satellites.


    Most of the opium grown in afghanistan ends up in europe. the heroin that ends up in the US comes from mexico and further south mostly.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    It IS being kept illegal on purpose...Again, if the WOD is a proven failure, why the resistance to change? ....drug policy is heavily influenced, if not decided, by people with an interest in keeping them illegal. Call that a conspiracy if you want...but it's fact. And btw, your analogy is weak.

    You really have no way of really defining the word "failure" as it relates to the war on drugs. Drug use is a crime just like any other. You can't expect to "win" a war against a certain crime.

    Murders, robberies, and littering happens every day. Does that mean those things are being kept illegal on purpose to keep cops in business?

    The war on drugs is lost in the cases of a certain percentage of people, but there's no way of knowing how many people are deterred by the illegality of drugs.

    If my analogies seem weak to you, it's because they're above your level of comprehension.
  • MrBrian wrote:
    It's about money. The government prefers these drugs not to be legal, they brainwash the public,law enforcement about how evil these pot smokers and whatever else are and everyone runs with it.

    I remember the cops faces when they took me in on a 1.7 gram pot&pipe charge, you would've thought they caught usama bin ladin, they were that happy. i still don't know why I was slammed against their car hood. oh yeah I asked for a warrant before they searched my car. but that's perhaps another issue.

    You pay them, hrs later they let you go, then you gotta go to court and you got court fees, I think mine was 300? can't remember I was high, anyway someone/some system is making lots of money off of the people.
    The war on drugs is a huge expense for the public, and in-turn the government. It's definitely not about making money. Yes, you pay to go to court, but it costs a lot more money to run the court for the time it takes to process these cases. Not to mention the amount of jail time served by people put there for drug-related charges is nothing short of astounding. It far outweighs any money made by a few fines paid.

    The government could make money if they legalized and taxed drugs just like cigarettes...think about why those are still legal.

    It's about social control.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Saturnal wrote:
    The war on drugs is a huge expense for the public, and in-turn the government. It's definitely not about making money. Yes, you pay to go to court, but it costs a lot more money to run the court for the time it takes to process these cases. Not to mention the amount of jail time served by people put there for drug-related charges is nothing short of astounding. It far outweighs any money made by a few fines paid.

    The government could make money if they legalized and taxed drugs just like cigarettes...think about why those are still legal.

    It's about social control.
    You can't deny that it's about money too. There is a huge cost to government overall....but who does that cost fall to in the end? Not the actual people in the government....the ones taking lobby money from the industries I listed above, getting favours from drug producing countries etc...
    sponger wrote:
    You really have no way of really defining the word "failure" as it relates to the war on drugs. Drug use is a crime just like any other. You can't expect to "win" a war against a certain crime.

    Murders, robberies, and littering happens every day. Does that mean those things are being kept illegal on purpose to keep cops in business?

    The war on drugs is lost in the cases of a certain percentage of people, but there's no way of knowing how many people are deterred by the illegality of drugs. .
    There is a way of knowing how many people were not deterred by it. Prohibition is a policy of erradication, period. And it doesnt work. Unless they want to go full out, life sentences with massive fines, it will barely make a dent - ever. I didn't say it was kept illegal just to keep cops in business....tho it is a huge funding source for them.
    sponger wrote:
    If my analogies seem weak to you, it's because they're above your level of comprehension..
    I get what you're saying...but the analogy is weak. More accurate if you'd said, "it like if we lived in a prohibitionist society, the CIA sold alcohol to youngsters, so you blame underage drinking on them"
  • Hitch-HikerHitch-Hiker Posts: 2,873
    I recently read reefer madness. I never realised howout of whack the American drug laws are. Sometimes posession can carry a heavier sentence than assault or even murder depending on the circumstanes. The amount of small time offenders who get put away for long sentences isridiculous. God knows how much money is spent on keeping all these people in prison, who really don't deserve it. Give 'em community service or something instead. And the 'War on Drugs' does appear to be a complete failure in every respect.
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  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    I recently read reefer madness. I never realised howout of whack the American drug laws are. Sometimes posession can carry a heavier sentence than assault or even murder depending on the circumstanes. The amount of small time offenders who get put away for long sentences isridiculous. God knows how much money is spent on keeping all these people in prison, who really don't deserve it. Give 'em community service or something instead. And the 'War on Drugs' does appear to be a complete failure in every respect.

    Indeed.

    Reefer madness, eh? Interesting read?
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  • You can't deny that it's about money too. There is a huge cost to government overall....but who does that cost fall to in the end? Not the actual people in the government....the ones taking lobby money from the industries I listed above, getting favours from drug producing countries etc...

    Sure, money is an element in almost everything...but I'm saying the prime reason for the war on drugs is not to make money. The prime reason is social control. Of course people are going to try to make money off of this just like they do in almost any situation.

    I guess my point is that the government didn't implement the war on drugs because they wanted to make more money. The few people who make money from it is just a natural side effect.

    I didn't write that other stuff you quoted me on btw.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Saturnal wrote:
    Sure, money is an element in almost everything...but I'm saying the prime reason for the war on drugs is not to make money. The prime reason is social control. Of course people are going to try to make money off of this just like they do in almost any situation.

    I guess my point is that the government didn't implement the war on drugs because they wanted to make more money. The few people who make money from it is just a natural side effect.

    I didn't write that other stuff you quoted me on btw.
    woops! sorry, fixed it.

    Ya, we agree on both counts (money and social control).
  • woops! sorry, fixed it.

    Ya, we agree on both counts (money and social control).
    What's funny is, I started replying to your reply to those other quotes before I realized they weren't mine. I was having a hard time replying, let me tell you..
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    contracts anyone? military equipment? weapons? These are multi million dollar winners,those sources. Indeed the government may not gain immediate revenue, but many other groups/areas do.

    Believe me, if just "fresh air" was used in fighting this so called drug war. then you can bet the war on drugs would not exist. I mean fresh air is free. well most of the time anyway.

    it's always about money. money is always the number one goal.

    iraq? costing america huge amounts for the war. but right now whos getting rich? contracts? weapons? these guys. like most wars, it's a money game. war on drugs no different.
  • MrBrian wrote:
    contracts anyone? military equipment? weapons? These are multi million dollar winners,those sources. Indeed the government may not gain immediate revenue, but many other groups/areas do.

    Believe me, if just "fresh air" was used in fighting this so called drug war. then you can bet the war on drugs would not exist. I mean fresh air is free. well most of the time anyway.

    it's always about money. money is always the number one goal.

    iraq? costing america huge amounts for the war. but right now whos getting rich? contracts? weapons? these guys. like most wars, it's a money game. war on drugs no different.

    Military contractors don't really make money off the war on drugs.

    What groups make money from the war on drugs?

    Also note that military contracts are legal, unlike the drug trade.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Saturnal wrote:
    Military contractors don't really make money off the war on drugs.

    What groups make money from the war on drugs?

    Also note that military contracts are legal, unlike the drug trade.


    If they aren't they are completely blowing a huge marketplace.

    So SWAT teams, the ATF, DEA...etc etc etc they don't use the same contractors as the military? Why not?

    Legality is completely determined by a governing body.

    Prohibition is proven not to work. The only way to reduce drug use is to reduce demand.

    Treatment and education are the only effective methods of keeping large numbers of people off of harmful recreational drugs.


    This is not and never will be about money for the government. It's about power and staying in power. Instead of doing something effective they choose to pander to voters and point to thier "records on crime and drugs" nd all they've done to irradicate this scourge from society.

    Check out a few Puritan sermons from the 1600's in Massachusettes... same arguments same results... 400 years later... imagine that people still use drugs recreationally. Where there is a will, there is a way.

    The only real cost effective solutions are to pour the money wasted in criminalizing drugs into treatment of addicts and education to prevent further addicts. Get the non violent drug users out of jail and it frees up space in prisons for the people who need to be there.
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  • Pacomc79 wrote:
    This is not and never will be about money for the government. It's about power and staying in power.

    Exactly
  • chipboychipboy Posts: 137
    Interesting thread. Good points all around. One that I didn't notice was my theory that politicians keep perpetuating the war on drugs to line the pockets of the their big $$ contributors......the pharmaceutical companies. How many pills do we get to ask out doctor about for sleep, stress, depression, hyperactivity, erections, shaking legs or whatever? Smoking a joint does wonders for a lot of these things and would hurt the demand for mother's little helpers. As far as social control goes you don't have to look at the war on drugs for evidence of it. Just watch TV commercials and ask your doctor if it's right for you.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    chipboy wrote:
    Interesting thread. Good points all around. One that I didn't notice was my theory that politicians keep perpetuating the war on drugs to line the pockets of the their big $$ contributors......the pharmaceutical companies. How many pills do we get to ask out doctor about for sleep, stress, depression, hyperactivity, erections, shaking legs or whatever? Smoking a joint does wonders for a lot of these things and would hurt the demand for mother's little helpers. As far as social control goes you don't have to look at the war on drugs for evidence of it. Just watch TV commercials and ask your doctor if it's right for you.


    I for one would be quite happy with banning the public advertisement of perscription drugs, if we are going to disallow the public to purchase them without the permission of a doctor neither should they be advertised. They can spend all that marketing money on research and make the drugs cheaper.
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  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    Saturnal wrote:
    Military contractors don't really make money off the war on drugs.

    What groups make money from the war on drugs?

    Also note that military contracts are legal, unlike the drug trade.

    prisons? loaded jails, more work force. don't forget when the war on drugs is taken to other countries such as latin america. nevertheless if it was mainly about social control then the government both local and federal would come up with a better way, like really trying to end the drug trade not keep it going. they need people to become addicts, they need people in prisons.
    Money is a main issue.

    The war on drugs is also used as an excuse to enter other countries, now is that social control or money for big business? I dunno? I lost track of my points and need to step back and return to this later.
  • MrBrian wrote:
    prisons? loaded jails, more work force. don't forget when the war on drugs is taken to other countries such as latin america. nevertheless if it was mainly about social control then the government both local and federal would come up with a better way, like really trying to end the drug trade not keep it going. they need people to become addicts, they need people in prisons.
    Money is a main issue.

    The war on drugs is also used as an excuse to enter other countries, now is that social control or money for big business? I dunno? I lost track of my points and need to step back and return to this later.

    So prison employees make money from the war on drugs..

    Prisons are public institutions. They don't turn profit like a A&D company does. They typically lose money if anything. And as far as I know, there aren't any real huge contracts that companies bid on for providing prison food or whatever other services prisons require.

    I dunno, I'm just not sure where you're getting the idea that the war on drugs is about filling prisons so more money can be made.

    I can see the point about using it as an excuse to invade other countries, but that's pretty rare. We usually come up with better excuses to invade (or MAKE up excuses).
  • Saturnal wrote:
    The government could make money if they legalized and taxed drugs just like cigarettes...think about why those are still legal.

    It's about social control.

    if the government legalized weed or coke, a regular dub (20$) of weed would be about 30$ people will still sell on the streets for cheaper plus the shit thats on the streets will probably be "better"

    even if its about social control, the government still lied and conspired in this case
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  • if the government legalized weed or coke, a regular dub (20$) of weed would be about 30$ people will still sell on the streets for cheaper plus the shit thats on the streets will probably be "better"

    even if its about social control, the government still lied and conspired in this case

    No way. Look at the prices of alcohol during prohibition compared to just before. If weed was legal, the price would drop dramatically...with legal competition, you'd see more of a price war going on.
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