Words in a language indeed have objective meanings and definitions, they can be found in the dictionary, for instance. Otherwise any word could be interpreted differently by different people, thus making communication impossible. (true, I should have included that in my original post, I just thought everyone would get this, apparently some of us don't )
I believe these words can be used in different contexts to means different things. So I think words do not have a "fixed" meaning (even though they have a objective definition).
How would you explain sarcasm?
Ah, so you're here to help me?
Anyway, it's a bit silly to assume that if you just gave me your theory or opinion I would not think about it.
do you think that maybe we are confusing meaning with tone. sarcasm is not about the words it is about the tone. to show what i mean by this is this. in the thread which i believe you talked aboptu in the 1st post we were discussing if Bitch is a sexist term or not. you were stating that bitch can be a sexist term but is not always a sexist term (i hope that i am right in this. if i am not please forgive me) i believe that the word bitch is a sexism term even if it is said in a joking way. the tone of the word bitch spoken might not mean that the speaker means it as sexist but the definition of the word is sexist.
another example is if a black person says the N word to another black person the tone will not be racist but the word still is.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
do you think that maybe we are confusing meaning with tone. sarcasm is not about the words it is about the tone. to show what i mean by this is this. in the thread which i believe you talked aboptu in the 1st post we were discussing if Bitch is a sexist term or not. you were stating that bitch can be a sexist term but is not always a sexist term (i hope that i am right in this. if i am not please forgive me) i believe that the word bitch is a sexism term even if it is said in a joking way. the tone of the word bitch spoken might not mean that the speaker means it as sexist but the definition of the word is sexist.
another example is if a black person says the N word to another black person the tone will not be racist but the word still is.
Well, I disagree with that.
I'm not confusing meaning with tone. Tone is context and a clear indicator of one's intention.
You claim a word in itself can be racist or sexist. I'd like to know how that is. Man creates and uses words and gives word meaning. We know the meanings of words shift, that indicates that a word does not have a "fixed" meaning. I'd say the meaning of a word is not only dependent on context in a restricted way but also dependent on context on a larger scale.
How do you apply labels to language if not by the context in which the word is used? Bitch is used in a negative context, thus it developed a negative connotation. The usage of the word determined its label. The word doesn't have a label in itself. We create labels and apply them to words.
My question is for you if you don't agree man makes labels and thus labels are subjective and words cannot have a "fixed" label either (sexist is a label, not a meaning), then how do words get their labels?
Say if I want to call my girlfriend "hinney" as a term of endearment is that okay? What source should I consult to see what label this word has?
An interesting theory is that hallucinations, caused by psilocybin (mushrooms), led to the development of spoken language: the ability to form pictures in another person's mind through the use of vocal sounds. (Terence McKenna). If so, how does this influence your thought on what creates the "label" of a word?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
An interesting theory is that hallucinations, caused by psilocybin (mushrooms), led to the development of spoken language: the ability to form pictures in another person's mind through the use of vocal sounds. (Terence McKenna). If so, how does this influence your thought on what creates the "label" of a word?
language, and words, are innate. Its what separates us from our closely related cousins in the animal kingdom, the ability to communicate through words.
language, and words, are innate. Its what separates us from our closely related cousins in the animal kingdom, the ability to communicate through words.
right, but what I was getting at here is the "sound" of the word... the musical nature of a word or language gives it meaning. The combination of these sounds patterns have been combined over time to create modern languages.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
At one point I told you I felt it was universal... what I meant was in the context we were talking about. Which meant referring to women, who generally hold certain wounds due to being women. And at the same time, I'm fairly certain you are aware of both those wounds women have, and the power that specific word has with women in general. In that context, I believe that for someon to use that word...there is something up...at the very least, an insensitivity towards women in that moment. And it shows. That is what I feel is universal...given the circumstances to use that word like that...one is entering territory where the risk to offend on that level is well-known, and that choice is made freely, knowing and accepting that risk. That says something. Myself and others were fairly adamant, and yet I thought everyone understood that it was contextual.
Agreed. I can't think of anyone who said the meaning of the word wasn't contextual. To the contrary, I believe the point was that you can't remove a word from its context - its historical context. History is fixed. And it takes many, many years of history to overcome the historical context which has already be created. One person's context in one conversation isn't enough to change meaning that a word has carried with it over a significant period of time.
So perhaps the question is how many people/conversations does it take to overcome the historical context of a word? Or, can the historical context of sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. words be overcome as long as there still exists sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.?
Agreed. I can't think of anyone who said the meaning of the word wasn't contextual. To the contrary, I believe the point was that you can't remove a word from its context - its historical context. History is fixed. And it takes many, many years of history to overcome the historical context which has already be created. One person's context in one conversation isn't enough to change meaning that a word has carried with it over a significant period of time.
So perhaps the question is how many people/conversations does it take to overcome the historical context of a word? Or, can the historical context of sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. words be overcome as long as there still exists sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.?
since histroy is written by the victors would you say the Roman empire, or the US, have any significant impact on language?
Agreed. I can't think of anyone who said the meaning of the word wasn't contextual. To the contrary, I believe the point was that you can't remove a word from its context - its historical context. History is fixed. And it takes many, many years of history to overcome the historical context which has already be created. One person's context in one conversation isn't enough to change meaning that a word has carried with it over a significant period of time.
I don't see history as fixed, incidentally! we like to see history as factual, and yet much of it is narrative that represents the perceptions of the narrator. Yes, there are circumstances that happened, and yet we can look at them from all kinds of perspectives, and we do! It was my historian brother who taught me this!
What this means to me is that we can clear up historical wounds carried within in each moment, now, by changing our perceptions that we've largely unconsciously inherited and internalized, and perpetuate daily, even when historical events no longer otherwise have any realistic hold over us. I do this all the time, and know it is amazingly freeing and healing.
In my understanding, in order to make this switch, we also need to stop perpetuating self-undermining patterns (carried over from the past) in the now. In terms of sexism, males and females in the western world, continue to rampantly blot out our feminine nature all the time, to great cost, right here and now. All it takes to get past this is a shift in one moment. And a following commitment. The past doesn't exist, except in our inner perceptions, which we absolutely control..within...not at all without, as in getting Collin or someone else to change their view.
So perhaps the question is how many people/conversations does it take to overcome the historical context of a word? Or, can the historical context of sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. words be overcome as long as there still exists sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.?
It's very clear to me that in order for any collective mindset to heal and move beyond their wounds, inner healing must take place. That ultimately is the responsibility of the wounded. No one else can do that work. In that sense, the word is merely a symbol for the unresolved energy.
On one hand changing words -- using linguistics as a tool -- can literally reshape our reality. And part of my own healing includes being very attuned to the energy of the words I use. How we speak shows our level of personal power, responsibility, and otherwise totally indicates where we are in life.
Our only power is in ourselves, and in resolving our own wounds. When we learn to do that, we learn to affect real change. When people are not empowered from within in such ways, we see them using inauthentic power...weilding power externally, over others. And as Collin has revealed, to me, at least, on this subject, that it's also an insidious historically perpetuated and presently continued abuse of power to use the power of words to try to in any way coerce him (or anyone else) from his view. Of course even playing field discussion, on the other hand, is great!!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Agreed. I can't think of anyone who said the meaning of the word wasn't contextual. To the contrary, I believe the point was that you can't remove a word from its context - its historical context. History is fixed. And it takes many, many years of history to overcome the historical context which has already be created. One person's context in one conversation isn't enough to change meaning that a word has carried with it over a significant period of time.
So perhaps the question is how many people/conversations does it take to overcome the historical context of a word? Or, can the historical context of sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. words be overcome as long as there still exists sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.?
Given Collin's original example context in the other thread, and knowing as he does how the vast majority takes that word, in that context, he's responsible for that usage, which has a negative and sexist power, imo. And if we all became empowered now, and let go of the past that we choose to carry now, and a shift happens, to where the majority is clear of that energy, Collin very well could use such words with an entirely different effect, and consequences for himself, which I kind of think is his basic point.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
An ex boyfriend once called me a derogatory term that referred to my German background. I responded by laughing....and laughing...it was so funny and ludicrous to me that someone would use a slur like that against me! It'd never happened before (...I live in a predominantly German area of Ontario )
It had no power over me at all, and instead, he ended up feeling and looking very sheepish at his silly attempt! He never did that ever again!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
An interesting theory is that hallucinations, caused by psilocybin (mushrooms), led to the development of spoken language: the ability to form pictures in another person's mind through the use of vocal sounds. (Terence McKenna). If so, how does this influence your thought on what creates the "label" of a word?
I doesn't really. This would have been the beginning of language, I believe language has evolved. I don't think that has anything to do with labels.
Agreed. I can't think of anyone who said the meaning of the word wasn't contextual. To the contrary, I believe the point was that you can't remove a word from its context - its historical context. History is fixed. And it takes many, many years of history to overcome the historical context which has already be created. One person's context in one conversation isn't enough to change meaning that a word has carried with it over a significant period of time.
You say you can't remove a word from its historical context, but this constantly happens in language.
By your theory it's not insulting to call a gay dude a faggot, since a word cannot be removed from its historical context. Faggot simply means a bundle of wood (you're a bundle of wood doesn't sound too offensive). And by gay dude I don't mean a happy fastidious dandy, but a homosexual guy, and again by guy I don't mean a "grotesquely or poorly dressed person" nor do I mean the effigy of Guy Fawkes (which are both entered in the etymologic dictionary under "guy")
I'd say - based on etymology dictionaries - that dude historically had a slight negative connotation. So is dude is sexist word too?
If not, I'll ask you too how do you know which words have a "fixed" label and thus meaning and which words don't?
So perhaps the question is how many people/conversations does it take to overcome the historical context of a word? Or, can the historical context of sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. words be overcome as long as there still exists sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.?
I think words don't have a fixed meaning or label, so one conversation would be enough in that specific context. I think the historical context can definitely be overcome while there's still sexism and racism.
Given Collin's original example context in the other thread, and knowing as he does how the vast majority takes that word, in that context, he's responsible for that usage, which has a negative and sexist power, imo.
Simple question: why sexist? Where and how did it get that label?
And I'll ask you what I asked other people as well: define sexist.
I would be great if the feminists here could explain to me the difference between a sexist insult and a regular insult.
Simple question: why sexist? Where and how did it get that label?
And I'll ask you what I asked other people as well: define sexist.
I would be great if the feminists here could explain to me the difference between a sexist insult and a regular insult.
I use the term sexist here referring to having a power against the collective group known as women. Just like in other instances, words have a power against the group of those who are mentally ill. Or with power against any other power-minorities who hold wounds.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I use the term sexist here referring to having a power against the collective group known as women. Just like in other instances, words have a power against the group of those who are mentally ill. Or with power against any other power-minorities who hold wounds.
How does a word have power against a collective group?
Helen is a woman, she is not offended by the word bitch and it has no power over her.
I'm not confusing meaning with tone. Tone is context and a clear indicator of one's intention.
You claim a word in itself can be racist or sexist. I'd like to know how that is. Man creates and uses words and gives word meaning. We know the meanings of words shift, that indicates that a word does not have a "fixed" meaning. I'd say the meaning of a word is not only dependent on context in a restricted way but also dependent on context on a larger scale.
How do you apply labels to language if not by the context in which the word is used? Bitch is used in a negative context, thus it developed a negative connotation. The usage of the word determined its label. The word doesn't have a label in itself. We create labels and apply them to words.
My question is for you if you don't agree man makes labels and thus labels are subjective and words cannot have a "fixed" label either (sexist is a label, not a meaning), then how do words get their labels?
Say if I want to call my girlfriend "hinney" as a term of endearment is that okay? What source should I consult to see what label this word has?
wow, is that you Socrates? i feel like i am back in philosophy. what you said in yoru first paragraph is teh same thing i said however you are using different words. instead of tone you use context. let's go back to our disscussion of the N-word. if i remember correctly, you said something to the affect that the N-word is racist but accord to yoru view now you would say that it is not always.
you seem to view words and language as subjective as the meaning of words were created by men and that word shift. if that is correct then i have to say that this debate and all other dabates are useless.
one last thing, if i tell a person to get me 5 apples but for me 5 apples means in common language 4 spoons woudl you say that the meaning of 5 apples has shifted or have i used the term wrong.
sorry i just went back to another post that you wrote and it seems to me that you wrote this already. what you did say was that words in different context can mean different thinsg and i agree with you on that but i again used the term tone.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Another thing: for me, I don't see most sexism as conscious. (which is why we continue to be insensitive to it) I see men crippling their own "feminine" intelligences...which aren't actually feminine at all because they are inherent to everyone. And yet at this point, they are considered feminine because they are attributed mostly to women. Therefore the widespread bias against these forms of intelligence (due to the exaltation of reason at the expense of other intelligences) cripples men and women alike. And most people, women included, (feminists too) continue to actively squash such intelligences.
What ends up being power used against women in general stems from the much larger picture. Although in the end, women and men end up perpetuating the minimization of the strengths inherent to women at this time. At great cost in the world. And with great imbalance worldwide.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
How does a word have power against a collective group?
Helen is a woman, she is not offended by the word bitch and it has no power over her.
Are all insult against women sexist?
Are you aware of collective unconsciousness, or tribal mindsets? There are certain group consciousnesses that exists among groups of people. For example nations have certain collective mindsets.
I think if you took a poll, you'd find the majority of women are consciously offended by that word to varying degrees. You may note that I've agreed with you that this shifts and is not universal. However, this majority wounding with women exists at this time. Even though I know this can be healed in a moment, when people realize this, it has not yet happened, and we can all sense this.
Very, very few women (or those in other groups) individuate and move beyond the collective mindsets at this time. More often people deny what is in their collective unconscious. This is why when people are acting from a place of sensitivity and responsibility towards groups and their woundedness, they act with sensitivity.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
wow, is that you Socrates? i feel like i am back in philosophy. what you said in yoru first paragraph is teh same thing i said however you are using different words. instead of tone you use context. let's go back to our disscussion of the N-word. if i remember correctly, you said something to the affect that the N-word is racist but accord to yoru view now you would say that it is not always.
you seem to view words and language as subjective as the meaning of words were created by men and that word shift. if that is correct then i have to say that this debate and all other dabates are useless.
one last thing, if i tell a person to get me 5 apples but for me 5 apples means in common language 4 spoons woudl you say that the meaning of 5 apples has shifted or have i used the term wrong.
No, it is not always racist. Some black people use it all the time, I don't think that's racist. When I was in Harlem black people addressed me with it too, I don't think that's racist either. In fact, I used to have a black friend and a lot of his white friends called him nigger too, and he called them nigger. He did not consider it to be racist.
I don't think the word 'nigger' is in itself racist. I said society views or labels that word as racist (and that was in comparison with the word bitch which I think society doesn't label as sexist in general, but that's a discussion about sexism and racism).
"Words in a language indeed have objective meanings and definitions, they can be found in the dictionary, for instance. Otherwise any word could be interpreted differently by different people, thus making communication impossible. I believe these words can be used in different contexts to means different things. So I think words do not have a "fixed" meaning (even though they have a objective definition)."
I'd say the meaning of 5 apples has shifted for you.
How do words get their labels?
Say if I want to call my girlfriend "hinney" as a term of endearment is that okay? What source should I consult to see what label this word has?
Are you aware of collective unconsciousness, or tribal mindsets? There are certain group consciousnesses that exists among groups of people. For example nations have certain collective mindsets.
I think if you took a poll, you'd find the majority of women are consciously offended by that word to varying degrees. You may note that I've agreed with you that this shifts and is not universal. However, this majority wounding with women exists at this time. Even though I know this can be healed in a moment, when people realize this, it has not yet happened, and we can all sense this.
Very, very few women (or those in other groups) individuate and move beyond the collective mindsets at this time. More often people deny what is in their collective unconscious. This is why when people are acting from a place of sensitivity and responsibility towards groups and their woundedness, they act with sensitivity.
I never claimed it wasn't offensive. Naturally lots of women will be offended if someone calls them a bitch. That doesn't make it sexist, however, unless you believe any insult towards women is sexist. Because if you were to take a poll, you'd find women are also consciously offended by the word asshole (which was labeled as non-sexist in the other thread).
I never claimed it wasn't offensive. Naturally lots of women will be offended if someone calls them a bitch. That doesn't make it sexist, however, unless you believe any insult towards women is sexist. Because if you were to take a poll, you'd find women are also consciously offended by the word asshole (which was labeled as non-sexist in the other thread).
So, are all insults against women sexist?
That was explained in the other thread by others (Specifics had an excellent version that I commended there) in ways that made perfect sense for me.
For me, it takes a holistic blend of emotional understanding, intuitive understanding and logical understanding in order to understand the situation. The explanations in the other thread won't "make sense" unless we also listen and hear emotionally and intuitively.
As was said...if we are looking to use reason outside of the context of the whole, or if we are looking to justify what cannot be justified, we're somewhere else I opt not to go.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You say you can't remove a word from its historical context, but this constantly happens in language.
By your theory it's not insulting to call a gay dude a faggot, since a word cannot be removed from its historical context. Faggot simply means a bundle of wood (you're a bundle of wood doesn't sound too offensive). And by gay dude I don't mean a happy fastidious dandy, but a homosexual guy, and again by guy I don't mean a "grotesquely or poorly dressed person" nor do I mean the effigy of Guy Fawkes (which are both entered in the etymologic dictionary under "guy")
I'd say - based on etymology dictionaries - that dude historically had a slight negative connotation. So is dude is sexist word too?
If not, I'll ask you too how do you know which words have a "fixed" label and thus meaning and which words don't?
I think words don't have a fixed meaning or label, so one conversation would be enough in that specific context. I think the historical context can definitely be overcome while there's still sexism and racism.
really, really well stated!
tis true....the 'meaning' of words evolve over time, some quite rapidly, and even within the same time period....different meanings in different parts of the world. the 'power' of words lies within the culture it is used, the context...and most importantly, the audience. none of this is 'fixed' nor is everyone's reaction. sure, one can guage the possible reaction based on time/place/context/audience...but it by no means guarantees the majority of the audience may/may not respond to such words as thought necessarily. i think context AND tone play a large role in if a word is offensive to some.
If you use a word, it has a certain generally accepted meaning. That meaning can be altered by your usuage of it. So when you are calling a woman the b-word, that word itself doesn't have universal power. It is also connected with your intent using the word. Also, the power of the word is connected to the way it is perceived by those who perceive it. That is three aspects: 1)objective meaning 2)intended meaning 3)perceived meaning.
When you seek to offend, that intent directed towards a human being makes you offensive. When you seek to offend, using a word that knowingly hooks another dimension, being the feminine wounding that exists in women consciously and unconsciously, you are also adding sexism to the equation.
The problem is, that one can have a decent intent with a word, and still given human wounds, it can still have a detrimental, or sexist effect.
The b-word wielded towards women can offend those who are merely viewing the situation. This is the same with abuse..those who witness the abuse also are affected by the abuse, even when the abuser feels they are only abusing one person.
So, Collin, Helen could be impervious to you calling her the b-word. You may also call her that jokingly, and yet you might still offend bystanders. You would therefore be responsible for choosing words that are known to have a sexist connotation.
Sure, you can use the word with different power. However, as one person, you cannot overcome the other variables that you exist interactively with.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
When one is putting forth an argument for their purposes and hoping to get others on board, such as regarding altering "sexist" wording, if they are doing so at the expense of the views of those they hope to influence rather than in harmony with those views, it remains a political or personal power struggle.
Often generally accepted schools of thought marginalise other groups, perpetuating power imbalances. Feminism does so, for example. Anti-racist thought fuels backlashes, too. This is because these schools of thought continue to perpetuate the underlying power imbalance problem themselves, all in the name of being "right".
All humans can sense when others have an agenda of power struggle, and when contrarily others seek the truth. The energy difference is palpable. The words are mere symbols.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If you use a word, it has a certain generally accepted meaning. That meaning can be altered by your usuage of it. So when you are calling a woman the b-word, that word itself doesn't have universal power. It is also connected with your intent using the word. Also, the power of the word is connected to the way it is perceived by those who perceive it. That is three aspects: 1)objective meaning 2)intended meaning 3)perceived meaning.
When you seek to offend, that intent directed towards a human being makes you offensive. When you seek to offend, using a word that knowingly hooks another dimension, being the feminine wounding that exists in women consciously and unconsciously, you are also adding sexism to the equation.
I like your first paragraph, but I disagree with your second paragraph. I've been thinking about this and maybe we disagree on this because we do not have the same native language. In my language there are plenty feminine words, in English I see this a lot less. We acknowledge gender in a lot of words. An example of this in English would be waiter and waitress. But you don't have this female form (at least not that I'm aware of) for a lot of other words such as worker, employee, friend, artist, driver, teacher... etc. for all these words we have a feminine form and a masculine form. So to me acknowledgement of gender is very natural. It's not only natural in 'regular' words but also in insults. To me, it doesn't add anything.
So perhaps we can say my understand of the English language isn't optimal and thus I'm not qualified to make judgements about the usage of it.
The problem is, that one can have a decent intent with a word, and still given human wounds, it can still have a detrimental, or sexist effect.
The b-word wielded towards women can offend those who are merely viewing the situation. This is the same with abuse..those who witness the abuse also are affected by the abuse, even when the abuser feels they are only abusing one person.
So, Collin, Helen could be impervious to you calling her the b-word. You may also call her that jokingly, and yet you might still offend bystanders. You would therefore be responsible for choosing words that are known to have a sexist connotation.
That would be number 3, the perceived meaning, right?
But if four women are called a bitch (I'm already feeling sorry for all these fictional women who are repeatedly being called a bitch ), and two of them say the perceive it as sexist and two of them don't perceive it as sexist. That that word is only sexist in the mind of some women, while to others it is not. That would mean the word doesn't have a universal sexist meaning.
By saying it is sexist, you're giving more validity to one perceived meaning.
There is no way I can know how other people perceive certain words, so any word becomes potentially offensive.
I like your first paragraph, but I disagree with your second paragraph. I've been thinking about this and maybe we disagree on this because we do not have the same native language. In my language there are plenty feminine words, in English I see this a lot less. We acknowledge gender in a lot of words. An example of this in English would be waiter and waitress. But you don't have this female form (at least not that I'm aware of) for a lot of other words such as worker, employee, friend, artist, driver, teacher... etc. for all these words we have a feminine form and a masculine form. So to me acknowledgement of gender is very natural. It's not only natural in 'regular' words but also in insults. To me, it doesn't add anything.
So perhaps we can say my understand of the English language isn't optimal and thus I'm not qualified to make judgements about the usage of it.
That's a very good point, Collin. In Canada and the US, I think the average person has had enough exposure to our "second" languages being French and Spanish, and therefore have a taste of that zany feminine/masculine thing in language. I can say with certainty that to me it's a weird concept!! I don't fathom words having feminine masculine slants at all! I know you are FAR more language educated in far-reaching ways than I am, for sure!
That would be number 3, the perceived meaning, right?
But if four women are called a bitch (I'm already feeling sorry for all these fictional women who are repeatedly being called a bitch ), and two of them say the perceive it as sexist and two of them don't perceive it as sexist. That that word is only sexist in the mind of some women, while to others it is not. That would mean the word doesn't have a universal sexist meaning.
By saying it is sexist, you're giving more validity to one perceived meaning.
There is no way I can know how other people perceive certain words, so any word becomes potentially offensive.
I agree, it's entirely contextual. I do believe, though, that when someone truly resolves this issue, one is at a point of understanding and sensitivity and therefore this argument is no longer an issue for that person. meaning, they would have no desire to use the word at all.
What I say is sexist, in your original example, is your use of it, as an aware, awake person, who well knows the potential for offense or wounding that the word holds, based on the general perceived meaning. In that specific context, I believe it universally has a sexist element, even if you don't intend to demean women.
Years ago, my sister and myself used to call each other "sluts" a lot.... it was empowering to us to take the word and to use it in a funny way, as a term of endearment between sisters! And it made a statement to others. I thought it was horrible how women were degraded for their natural sex drive, and I consciously used the word in order to diminish the negative power it generally wielded. I wouldn't dream of giving that word power in such a way anymore. But I'm not against the principle of the matter. There is potential fallout for doing so, though, such as the ownership for risking offending others in order to make a point. Anytime we sacrifice others for self, we're missing something.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
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do you think that maybe we are confusing meaning with tone. sarcasm is not about the words it is about the tone. to show what i mean by this is this. in the thread which i believe you talked aboptu in the 1st post we were discussing if Bitch is a sexist term or not. you were stating that bitch can be a sexist term but is not always a sexist term (i hope that i am right in this. if i am not please forgive me) i believe that the word bitch is a sexism term even if it is said in a joking way. the tone of the word bitch spoken might not mean that the speaker means it as sexist but the definition of the word is sexist.
another example is if a black person says the N word to another black person the tone will not be racist but the word still is.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Well, I disagree with that.
I'm not confusing meaning with tone. Tone is context and a clear indicator of one's intention.
You claim a word in itself can be racist or sexist. I'd like to know how that is. Man creates and uses words and gives word meaning. We know the meanings of words shift, that indicates that a word does not have a "fixed" meaning. I'd say the meaning of a word is not only dependent on context in a restricted way but also dependent on context on a larger scale.
How do you apply labels to language if not by the context in which the word is used? Bitch is used in a negative context, thus it developed a negative connotation. The usage of the word determined its label. The word doesn't have a label in itself. We create labels and apply them to words.
My question is for you if you don't agree man makes labels and thus labels are subjective and words cannot have a "fixed" label either (sexist is a label, not a meaning), then how do words get their labels?
Say if I want to call my girlfriend "hinney" as a term of endearment is that okay? What source should I consult to see what label this word has?
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right, but what I was getting at here is the "sound" of the word... the musical nature of a word or language gives it meaning. The combination of these sounds patterns have been combined over time to create modern languages.
Agreed. I can't think of anyone who said the meaning of the word wasn't contextual. To the contrary, I believe the point was that you can't remove a word from its context - its historical context. History is fixed. And it takes many, many years of history to overcome the historical context which has already be created. One person's context in one conversation isn't enough to change meaning that a word has carried with it over a significant period of time.
So perhaps the question is how many people/conversations does it take to overcome the historical context of a word? Or, can the historical context of sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. words be overcome as long as there still exists sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.?
What this means to me is that we can clear up historical wounds carried within in each moment, now, by changing our perceptions that we've largely unconsciously inherited and internalized, and perpetuate daily, even when historical events no longer otherwise have any realistic hold over us. I do this all the time, and know it is amazingly freeing and healing.
In my understanding, in order to make this switch, we also need to stop perpetuating self-undermining patterns (carried over from the past) in the now. In terms of sexism, males and females in the western world, continue to rampantly blot out our feminine nature all the time, to great cost, right here and now. All it takes to get past this is a shift in one moment. And a following commitment. The past doesn't exist, except in our inner perceptions, which we absolutely control..within...not at all without, as in getting Collin or someone else to change their view.
It's very clear to me that in order for any collective mindset to heal and move beyond their wounds, inner healing must take place. That ultimately is the responsibility of the wounded. No one else can do that work. In that sense, the word is merely a symbol for the unresolved energy.
On one hand changing words -- using linguistics as a tool -- can literally reshape our reality. And part of my own healing includes being very attuned to the energy of the words I use. How we speak shows our level of personal power, responsibility, and otherwise totally indicates where we are in life.
Our only power is in ourselves, and in resolving our own wounds. When we learn to do that, we learn to affect real change. When people are not empowered from within in such ways, we see them using inauthentic power...weilding power externally, over others. And as Collin has revealed, to me, at least, on this subject, that it's also an insidious historically perpetuated and presently continued abuse of power to use the power of words to try to in any way coerce him (or anyone else) from his view. Of course even playing field discussion, on the other hand, is great!!
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It had no power over me at all, and instead, he ended up feeling and looking very sheepish at his silly attempt! He never did that ever again!
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I doesn't really. This would have been the beginning of language, I believe language has evolved. I don't think that has anything to do with labels.
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You say you can't remove a word from its historical context, but this constantly happens in language.
By your theory it's not insulting to call a gay dude a faggot, since a word cannot be removed from its historical context. Faggot simply means a bundle of wood (you're a bundle of wood doesn't sound too offensive). And by gay dude I don't mean a happy fastidious dandy, but a homosexual guy, and again by guy I don't mean a "grotesquely or poorly dressed person" nor do I mean the effigy of Guy Fawkes (which are both entered in the etymologic dictionary under "guy")
I'd say - based on etymology dictionaries - that dude historically had a slight negative connotation. So is dude is sexist word too?
If not, I'll ask you too how do you know which words have a "fixed" label and thus meaning and which words don't?
I think words don't have a fixed meaning or label, so one conversation would be enough in that specific context. I think the historical context can definitely be overcome while there's still sexism and racism.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=jYtMa9Rq5Xs
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Simple question: why sexist? Where and how did it get that label?
And I'll ask you what I asked other people as well: define sexist.
I would be great if the feminists here could explain to me the difference between a sexist insult and a regular insult.
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How does a word have power against a collective group?
Helen is a woman, she is not offended by the word bitch and it has no power over her.
Are all insult against women sexist?
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wow, is that you Socrates? i feel like i am back in philosophy. what you said in yoru first paragraph is teh same thing i said however you are using different words. instead of tone you use context. let's go back to our disscussion of the N-word. if i remember correctly, you said something to the affect that the N-word is racist but accord to yoru view now you would say that it is not always.
you seem to view words and language as subjective as the meaning of words were created by men and that word shift. if that is correct then i have to say that this debate and all other dabates are useless.
one last thing, if i tell a person to get me 5 apples but for me 5 apples means in common language 4 spoons woudl you say that the meaning of 5 apples has shifted or have i used the term wrong.
sorry i just went back to another post that you wrote and it seems to me that you wrote this already. what you did say was that words in different context can mean different thinsg and i agree with you on that but i again used the term tone.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
What ends up being power used against women in general stems from the much larger picture. Although in the end, women and men end up perpetuating the minimization of the strengths inherent to women at this time. At great cost in the world. And with great imbalance worldwide.
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Are you aware of collective unconsciousness, or tribal mindsets? There are certain group consciousnesses that exists among groups of people. For example nations have certain collective mindsets.
I think if you took a poll, you'd find the majority of women are consciously offended by that word to varying degrees. You may note that I've agreed with you that this shifts and is not universal. However, this majority wounding with women exists at this time. Even though I know this can be healed in a moment, when people realize this, it has not yet happened, and we can all sense this.
Very, very few women (or those in other groups) individuate and move beyond the collective mindsets at this time. More often people deny what is in their collective unconscious. This is why when people are acting from a place of sensitivity and responsibility towards groups and their woundedness, they act with sensitivity.
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No, it is not always racist. Some black people use it all the time, I don't think that's racist. When I was in Harlem black people addressed me with it too, I don't think that's racist either. In fact, I used to have a black friend and a lot of his white friends called him nigger too, and he called them nigger. He did not consider it to be racist.
I don't think the word 'nigger' is in itself racist. I said society views or labels that word as racist (and that was in comparison with the word bitch which I think society doesn't label as sexist in general, but that's a discussion about sexism and racism).
"Words in a language indeed have objective meanings and definitions, they can be found in the dictionary, for instance. Otherwise any word could be interpreted differently by different people, thus making communication impossible. I believe these words can be used in different contexts to means different things. So I think words do not have a "fixed" meaning (even though they have a objective definition)."
I'd say the meaning of 5 apples has shifted for you.
How do words get their labels?
Say if I want to call my girlfriend "hinney" as a term of endearment is that okay? What source should I consult to see what label this word has?
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I never claimed it wasn't offensive. Naturally lots of women will be offended if someone calls them a bitch. That doesn't make it sexist, however, unless you believe any insult towards women is sexist. Because if you were to take a poll, you'd find women are also consciously offended by the word asshole (which was labeled as non-sexist in the other thread).
So, are all insults against women sexist?
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For me, it takes a holistic blend of emotional understanding, intuitive understanding and logical understanding in order to understand the situation. The explanations in the other thread won't "make sense" unless we also listen and hear emotionally and intuitively.
As was said...if we are looking to use reason outside of the context of the whole, or if we are looking to justify what cannot be justified, we're somewhere else I opt not to go.
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really, really well stated!
tis true....the 'meaning' of words evolve over time, some quite rapidly, and even within the same time period....different meanings in different parts of the world. the 'power' of words lies within the culture it is used, the context...and most importantly, the audience. none of this is 'fixed' nor is everyone's reaction. sure, one can guage the possible reaction based on time/place/context/audience...but it by no means guarantees the majority of the audience may/may not respond to such words as thought necessarily. i think context AND tone play a large role in if a word is offensive to some.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
If you use a word, it has a certain generally accepted meaning. That meaning can be altered by your usuage of it. So when you are calling a woman the b-word, that word itself doesn't have universal power. It is also connected with your intent using the word. Also, the power of the word is connected to the way it is perceived by those who perceive it. That is three aspects: 1)objective meaning 2)intended meaning 3)perceived meaning.
When you seek to offend, that intent directed towards a human being makes you offensive. When you seek to offend, using a word that knowingly hooks another dimension, being the feminine wounding that exists in women consciously and unconsciously, you are also adding sexism to the equation.
The problem is, that one can have a decent intent with a word, and still given human wounds, it can still have a detrimental, or sexist effect.
The b-word wielded towards women can offend those who are merely viewing the situation. This is the same with abuse..those who witness the abuse also are affected by the abuse, even when the abuser feels they are only abusing one person.
So, Collin, Helen could be impervious to you calling her the b-word. You may also call her that jokingly, and yet you might still offend bystanders. You would therefore be responsible for choosing words that are known to have a sexist connotation.
Sure, you can use the word with different power. However, as one person, you cannot overcome the other variables that you exist interactively with.
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Often generally accepted schools of thought marginalise other groups, perpetuating power imbalances. Feminism does so, for example. Anti-racist thought fuels backlashes, too. This is because these schools of thought continue to perpetuate the underlying power imbalance problem themselves, all in the name of being "right".
All humans can sense when others have an agenda of power struggle, and when contrarily others seek the truth. The energy difference is palpable. The words are mere symbols.
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That's a bold generalization.
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I like your first paragraph, but I disagree with your second paragraph. I've been thinking about this and maybe we disagree on this because we do not have the same native language. In my language there are plenty feminine words, in English I see this a lot less. We acknowledge gender in a lot of words. An example of this in English would be waiter and waitress. But you don't have this female form (at least not that I'm aware of) for a lot of other words such as worker, employee, friend, artist, driver, teacher... etc. for all these words we have a feminine form and a masculine form. So to me acknowledgement of gender is very natural. It's not only natural in 'regular' words but also in insults. To me, it doesn't add anything.
So perhaps we can say my understand of the English language isn't optimal and thus I'm not qualified to make judgements about the usage of it.
That would be number 3, the perceived meaning, right?
But if four women are called a bitch (I'm already feeling sorry for all these fictional women who are repeatedly being called a bitch
By saying it is sexist, you're giving more validity to one perceived meaning.
There is no way I can know how other people perceive certain words, so any word becomes potentially offensive.
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I agree, it's entirely contextual. I do believe, though, that when someone truly resolves this issue, one is at a point of understanding and sensitivity and therefore this argument is no longer an issue for that person. meaning, they would have no desire to use the word at all.
What I say is sexist, in your original example, is your use of it, as an aware, awake person, who well knows the potential for offense or wounding that the word holds, based on the general perceived meaning. In that specific context, I believe it universally has a sexist element, even if you don't intend to demean women.
Years ago, my sister and myself used to call each other "sluts" a lot.... it was empowering to us to take the word and to use it in a funny way, as a term of endearment between sisters! And it made a statement to others. I thought it was horrible how women were degraded for their natural sex drive, and I consciously used the word in order to diminish the negative power it generally wielded. I wouldn't dream of giving that word power in such a way anymore. But I'm not against the principle of the matter. There is potential fallout for doing so, though, such as the ownership for risking offending others in order to make a point. Anytime we sacrifice others for self, we're missing something.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
:P