It's certainly not something I'd want anyone to rush into either. Right after diagnosis is not a good time. Your emotions are in a state of flux and you don't really know what you're dealing with yet. Most people are surprised at the level of discomfort they're willing to tolerate in order to have more time with their loved ones ... I know that I have been, and from talking to people at my cancer clinic I think that's the norm.
I'd also be opposed to doing anyone in based on a long-term prognosis, because I don't think doctors know what they're talking about half the time. I know a woman who was told she had two years to live and she was dead in a month. I know another that was given a matter of weeks and she's still here and functioning pretty well four years later. This is why I don't ask my doctor how long I have to live, because her answer wouldn't have any meaning for me.
But the fact remains that for many diseases, such as cancer, AIDS, Gehrig's disease, etc., there often does come a time when the pain and suffering is almost unbearable, both for the sick person and the loved ones who have to stand by helplessly. I know that in my case, the only difference this law would make would be to insure there isn't a botched suicide that only makes matters worse, because when that time comes for me, I am going to do my damnedest to get outta here one way or another ... I only hope I don't screw it up and make things even worse for my family. I think it would be a kindness to allow someone to help me without putting them at risk of criminal prosecution.
and this is exactly why this is a tough matter for me. I can understand why you would feel that way...I wouldn't dare say I wouldn't feel that way, b/c I am not in that situation.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
The thing is, a lot of people don't die in peace. A lot of people die in agony, and there's no way to bring them peace. Drugs are only effective to a point. My doctors were unable to give control my pain after surgery, so my confidence that they'll be able to control final-stage cancer pain is right around zero.
Also, there are certain things I refuse to do. I refuse to be a drooling imbecile, so if my cancer spreads to my brain I'm going to have to take matters into my own hands. As I know from my post-surgical attempts at pain control, I have a massive tolerance for narcotics. I doubt I could do myself in using drugs without a doctor's supervision. That leaves me only with less attractive options that will leave behind a huge mess for someone to clean up, and I don't think that's fair to my family, friends, or the local police.
I know that doctors swear an oath to do no harm, but I honestly don't see the harm in helping someone to die peacefully when they're about to die miserably if no one intervenes. If Dr. Jack or someone like him were allowed to legally operate in Ohio, I'd be talking to him right now.
Dr Nitschke and The Peaceful Pill handbook maybe insightful for you mom.
It's banned here, :rolleyes: but of course that won't stop me reading up.
I am wondering if people could get this issue on a ballot by collecting enough signatures to force it to be voted on by the people? (This is for all us in the states that still won't allow it.)
I have witness so many people in states of such bad health and suffering who are forced to go thru the inhumanity of waiting to the bitter ends. Or such severe dementia that they didn't even know who they were, that they acted like babies and were scared of everything. They live in nursing homes and I've seen them come to hospitals, cuz of pneumonia, and it was pitiful. I found it inhumane. Once I watched a man in this bad of shape and the wife praying over her husband. That was the worse case I have ever seen and I wondered, is she praying for him to survive or to die.
It was so bad, I looked at my bf and said, "if I am ever like that please put a pillow over my face and smother me to death".
Its so inhumane to force people to live like that.
I have great fears of my ends. On my dad's side, they all lived into their 90's, and their health was great, because they lived healthy lives, but their minds were gone. They have genes that make them live long, but alzheimers also runs in the family. So, they live many years in this shape.
My dad is 90 and he lives a healthy life. I fell he is too healthy, cuz his body is so well, but his brain gone.
I know I have those genes, and I smoke, etc, and don't care. I do not want to live that long!!! Healthy body, but alzhemiers that could last for years just cuz of a healthy body. For these people that healthy body they maintained ends up a curse.
Sometimes I wonder about people who take so good of their bodies realize they still won't live forever and because they lived so healthy, they have created a situation where their bodies won't give out, but their minds do, like my dad, and may have to spend 10 or more years with severe dementia an institutionalize.
No fricking way for me. I know my genetic make up and I keep smoking, eating bad whatever. I refuse to live like that. Once in that state of mind, you can't take your own life, but assisted sucide could assist him. Actually, it isn't easy to take your life by yourself to begin with. It seems easy but it is not, especialy when your brain is gone or you are not able to do it yourself.
My grandma lived 10 years in a ward totally not knowing who she was, who her kids were, and was like a child and scared to death.
NO fricking way.
I show signs now of dementia. Its part of my head injury and medications I have to take, plus research has now shown that for people with this genetic background actaully start getting dementia as early as 40!!!
I have been precribed Aricept alreay, it is for dementia.
I do not want to live forever after what I have witnessed. I will cut down on my life span thru smoking, eating foods bad for me, whatever it takes, but there is no way I will live like those i have seen. It is so wrong and inhumane to force these people to live like that.
I never want people changing my diapers. I never want to be in an institution not knowing who I am, what is happening to me and actually becoming an infant again. Actually its way worse that being an infant.
The man I witnessed was even scared to be touched by others. It scared the hell out of him and he acted like an infant, but with many other issues that I just NEVER want to be alive like that.
I wonder just who cares if these people are given the dignity, the humanity, and the release from this hell they are stuck in.
Its so inhumane to FORCE them to live like that. It's pathetic and inhumane. Actually, it cruel. Oh, and this man that I saw scared me about what would happen to me when or if I reach that state.
That is not life.
He was in a fetal postion and scared of anyone touching him, and really did not understand anything about was happening around him. I quite sure his wife was praying to just let him die.
I hope he didn't linger long. My gandma did for 10 years. Thas was so inhumane.
Lastly, with advances in medicine, they can keep these people alive indefinitively, or til all the money is drain, then they usually let them die.
I want to die when I want to die.
I never want to thru that. It ain't right!
I do suffer from some dementia now. I was prescribed Aricept for it, but don't take it at this stage, (it has side efects), but I have systems in my life to help me remember what I have to do on an day, but at the point I don't know who i am....I want out.
I am so not afraid of death, its part of life. It should be expected, thus people need to remember, its not life and living when you have severe dementia and other illneses that really have no prognosis but death.
At that point you are dying, why not do it humane instead of allowing people suffer so bad.
I know why, I have witnesed it too many times, its the money. Once they got all your money, then they let you die. The may use excuses like, " well we can longer do anything about it" and only then do they pull the plug, etc and allow you to die. HA, its always about the money. That is where the wrong is!!! They sure have problem depleted these poeple's savings, only to let them die anyway when the money's gone. That is what should be criminal. How is that worse than Jack?
Jack is my hero. Maybe a bit eccentic, but he is on the right track.
He lives near me and I keep his phone muber in pocket. I have had it there for years. He says he won't do it agian, but that is sad.
Lets get it on a ballot.
I have found out it isn't as easy to kill yourself as I once thought.
Jack, its surefire thing.
He may come off as a bit eccentric. But, I know that lots of people in the medical professional agree with him.
Le me say one thing, I feel people's religion close their minds to this. They feel it's a sin. But, many of us are not religious and find this humane.
I do not believe in God or hell. I believe hell is here on earth.
Jack is a saint to let these people out of their misery and pain, especialy when their prognosis is death anyway and instead of them having to linger at the hospital on life support tlll the cash runs out and those medical people only let them die.
Its a rip off.
Quality of life is important, remember???
I know as my illness gets worse and I am in full blown dementia. I do not want my diapers changed. I do not to be even able to recognize my loved ones. And I don't want to covert to a 2 year old and be scared of what is happenig around me all the times. I do not want be frightened when a doctor has to examine me and I don't understand even where I am and what they doing and cry out of fear as an infant, and act like one.
My dad has alzhemeimers and there is no quality to his life, whatsoever. And at this point he is waiting to die.
Yet, his great physical health has now become a curse.
He could linger like this for a longtime, which could be 10 more years, like his mom did. His 7 older siblings all lived into their 90's, all with alzheimers for may years. He never smoked, drank, etc. and always stayed in great phsical health. This is cursing him now.
I see them as vegatables at that point.
I know this will happen to me. There is no fricking way I will allow if I had chioces....and I want Jack back in busines, or at least the voters decide.
Anyway, welcome home Jack, and I love you, your humanity should get you some very honorable awards.
I only hope others take up your cause.
Oh and I hate that Geoff Feiger made a name for himself representing you and abandoned you. He did it to gain national fame and succeeded, but he did you wrong!!!
I may start a petition to get this on the ballot.
Thanks Jack and I hope you get well!!!
Heather, I agree totally. Like you, I've researched various suicide methods, and discovered that it's not nearly as easy as you might think. I think it's awful to leave a huge mess for someone to clean up, so that leaves out guns and jumping from a high place, and other methods are anything but a sure thing. With my tolerance for narcotics I wouldn't begin to know how much it would take to finish me off, and it's not as if I know where to buy heroin anyway, and doctors won't give you enough to kill yourself with all at once ... you have to do without your pain meds for a long time and stockpile enough, provided you're sure how much "enough" will be. It's such bullshit. Like you, I have no intention of wearing a diaper or becoming a drooling idiot, and that should be my choice.
The answer to your first question is yes and no. There was a ballot initiative in Oregon, that's how they got their Death With Dignity law. But even there, the doctor can only give you the drugs, he or she can't administer them, and neither can anyone else except the person who wants to die, so it's of no use to people who are paralyzed or severely disabled, particularly if family members or others don't agree with their decision ... it's easy for them to keep the drugs from you.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I know it is a very tough and agonizing situation; I've watched 2 loved ones suffer from (and ultimately succumb to) cancer. I know we've gone down this road before and I don't take it lightly and I know there's no easy answer (at least for me). So I choose to come down on the side of thinking physician assisted suicide shouldn't be allowed. And there are damn good reasons why people do choose and would choose to use P-A suicide. If there was a place i'd be willing to hedge it would be the END stages of a terminal disease...cancer, AIDS etc... I could never support it right after diagnosis and I could never support it being used on someone who was a "burden" to family members. If it was used to make the dying process tolerable that is one thing; if it's used to advance and hasten the death process (i.e... you've got a year to live but you just want to end it...that would be a lot harder for me to support) that's something totally different.
I don't think anybody in this thread is saying, "I'm having a bad day, let me end it". I agree that if you just got diagnosis for a disease that death, other than naturally shouldn't be you first thought. But a disease that has rendered you to needing a machine to get you out of bed to have your bath or go to the bathroom. A disease that has you totally on dependence of somebody to feed you and wipe your face. You need somebody to set your t.v. so it will go on and off as the only comfort all day long is the t.v. and you have trouble even getting a channel changed. Or the hands free telephone is impossible to press talk on because you just can't get enough energy or strength. And then your voice is starting to go so you can't communicate with your family or the nursing staff. I think you should have a choice in your own death and how long you would like to be in that condition. Somehow I think you may agree.
I don't think anybody in this thread is saying, "I'm having a bad day, let me end it". I agree that if you just got diagnosis for a disease that death, other than naturally shouldn't be you first thought. But a disease that has rendered you to needing a machine to get you out of bed to have your bath or go to the bathroom. A disease that has you totally on dependence of somebody to feed you and wipe your face. You need somebody to set your t.v. so it will go on and off as the only comfort all day long is the t.v. and you have trouble even getting a channel changed. Or the hands free telephone is impossible to press talk on because you just can't get enough energy or strength. And then your voice is starting to go so you can't communicate with your family or the nursing staff. I think you should have a choice in your own death and how long you would like to be in that condition. Somehow I think you may agree.
I agree to some of that but there's a whole list of caveats that would follow. I agree you should have a say in your healthcare and if you choose to be DNR, no heroic measures, no ventilators etc... that I agree with wholeheartedly. I agree that in that situation phys assisted suicide would sound ideal. In that situation, i would say if i keep deteriorating let me go and give me pain meds to control the pain. If the machine is doing all the work for me... let me go.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
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i agree wholeheartedly with the above.
and this is exactly why this is a tough matter for me. I can understand why you would feel that way...I wouldn't dare say I wouldn't feel that way, b/c I am not in that situation.
Dr Nitschke and The Peaceful Pill handbook maybe insightful for you mom.
It's banned here, :rolleyes: but of course that won't stop me reading up.
http://www.exitinternational.net/index.php?page=Publications
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I have witness so many people in states of such bad health and suffering who are forced to go thru the inhumanity of waiting to the bitter ends. Or such severe dementia that they didn't even know who they were, that they acted like babies and were scared of everything. They live in nursing homes and I've seen them come to hospitals, cuz of pneumonia, and it was pitiful. I found it inhumane. Once I watched a man in this bad of shape and the wife praying over her husband. That was the worse case I have ever seen and I wondered, is she praying for him to survive or to die.
It was so bad, I looked at my bf and said, "if I am ever like that please put a pillow over my face and smother me to death".
Its so inhumane to force people to live like that.
I have great fears of my ends. On my dad's side, they all lived into their 90's, and their health was great, because they lived healthy lives, but their minds were gone. They have genes that make them live long, but alzheimers also runs in the family. So, they live many years in this shape.
My dad is 90 and he lives a healthy life. I fell he is too healthy, cuz his body is so well, but his brain gone.
I know I have those genes, and I smoke, etc, and don't care. I do not want to live that long!!! Healthy body, but alzhemiers that could last for years just cuz of a healthy body. For these people that healthy body they maintained ends up a curse.
Sometimes I wonder about people who take so good of their bodies realize they still won't live forever and because they lived so healthy, they have created a situation where their bodies won't give out, but their minds do, like my dad, and may have to spend 10 or more years with severe dementia an institutionalize.
No fricking way for me. I know my genetic make up and I keep smoking, eating bad whatever. I refuse to live like that. Once in that state of mind, you can't take your own life, but assisted sucide could assist him. Actually, it isn't easy to take your life by yourself to begin with. It seems easy but it is not, especialy when your brain is gone or you are not able to do it yourself.
My grandma lived 10 years in a ward totally not knowing who she was, who her kids were, and was like a child and scared to death.
NO fricking way.
I show signs now of dementia. Its part of my head injury and medications I have to take, plus research has now shown that for people with this genetic background actaully start getting dementia as early as 40!!!
I have been precribed Aricept alreay, it is for dementia.
I do not want to live forever after what I have witnessed. I will cut down on my life span thru smoking, eating foods bad for me, whatever it takes, but there is no way I will live like those i have seen. It is so wrong and inhumane to force these people to live like that.
I never want people changing my diapers. I never want to be in an institution not knowing who I am, what is happening to me and actually becoming an infant again. Actually its way worse that being an infant.
The man I witnessed was even scared to be touched by others. It scared the hell out of him and he acted like an infant, but with many other issues that I just NEVER want to be alive like that.
I wonder just who cares if these people are given the dignity, the humanity, and the release from this hell they are stuck in.
Its so inhumane to FORCE them to live like that. It's pathetic and inhumane. Actually, it cruel. Oh, and this man that I saw scared me about what would happen to me when or if I reach that state.
That is not life.
He was in a fetal postion and scared of anyone touching him, and really did not understand anything about was happening around him. I quite sure his wife was praying to just let him die.
I hope he didn't linger long. My gandma did for 10 years. Thas was so inhumane.
Lastly, with advances in medicine, they can keep these people alive indefinitively, or til all the money is drain, then they usually let them die.
I want to die when I want to die.
I never want to thru that. It ain't right!
I do suffer from some dementia now. I was prescribed Aricept for it, but don't take it at this stage, (it has side efects), but I have systems in my life to help me remember what I have to do on an day, but at the point I don't know who i am....I want out.
I am so not afraid of death, its part of life. It should be expected, thus people need to remember, its not life and living when you have severe dementia and other illneses that really have no prognosis but death.
At that point you are dying, why not do it humane instead of allowing people suffer so bad.
I know why, I have witnesed it too many times, its the money. Once they got all your money, then they let you die. The may use excuses like, " well we can longer do anything about it" and only then do they pull the plug, etc and allow you to die. HA, its always about the money. That is where the wrong is!!! They sure have problem depleted these poeple's savings, only to let them die anyway when the money's gone. That is what should be criminal. How is that worse than Jack?
Jack is my hero. Maybe a bit eccentic, but he is on the right track.
He lives near me and I keep his phone muber in pocket. I have had it there for years. He says he won't do it agian, but that is sad.
Lets get it on a ballot.
I have found out it isn't as easy to kill yourself as I once thought.
Jack, its surefire thing.
He may come off as a bit eccentric. But, I know that lots of people in the medical professional agree with him.
Le me say one thing, I feel people's religion close their minds to this. They feel it's a sin. But, many of us are not religious and find this humane.
I do not believe in God or hell. I believe hell is here on earth.
Jack is a saint to let these people out of their misery and pain, especialy when their prognosis is death anyway and instead of them having to linger at the hospital on life support tlll the cash runs out and those medical people only let them die.
Its a rip off.
Quality of life is important, remember???
I know as my illness gets worse and I am in full blown dementia. I do not want my diapers changed. I do not to be even able to recognize my loved ones. And I don't want to covert to a 2 year old and be scared of what is happenig around me all the times. I do not want be frightened when a doctor has to examine me and I don't understand even where I am and what they doing and cry out of fear as an infant, and act like one.
My dad has alzhemeimers and there is no quality to his life, whatsoever. And at this point he is waiting to die.
Yet, his great physical health has now become a curse.
He could linger like this for a longtime, which could be 10 more years, like his mom did. His 7 older siblings all lived into their 90's, all with alzheimers for may years. He never smoked, drank, etc. and always stayed in great phsical health. This is cursing him now.
I see them as vegatables at that point.
I know this will happen to me. There is no fricking way I will allow if I had chioces....and I want Jack back in busines, or at least the voters decide.
Anyway, welcome home Jack, and I love you, your humanity should get you some very honorable awards.
I only hope others take up your cause.
Oh and I hate that Geoff Feiger made a name for himself representing you and abandoned you. He did it to gain national fame and succeeded, but he did you wrong!!!
I may start a petition to get this on the ballot.
Thanks Jack and I hope you get well!!!
The answer to your first question is yes and no. There was a ballot initiative in Oregon, that's how they got their Death With Dignity law. But even there, the doctor can only give you the drugs, he or she can't administer them, and neither can anyone else except the person who wants to die, so it's of no use to people who are paralyzed or severely disabled, particularly if family members or others don't agree with their decision ... it's easy for them to keep the drugs from you.
I don't think anybody in this thread is saying, "I'm having a bad day, let me end it". I agree that if you just got diagnosis for a disease that death, other than naturally shouldn't be you first thought. But a disease that has rendered you to needing a machine to get you out of bed to have your bath or go to the bathroom. A disease that has you totally on dependence of somebody to feed you and wipe your face. You need somebody to set your t.v. so it will go on and off as the only comfort all day long is the t.v. and you have trouble even getting a channel changed. Or the hands free telephone is impossible to press talk on because you just can't get enough energy or strength. And then your voice is starting to go so you can't communicate with your family or the nursing staff. I think you should have a choice in your own death and how long you would like to be in that condition. Somehow I think you may agree.
I agree to some of that but there's a whole list of caveats that would follow. I agree you should have a say in your healthcare and if you choose to be DNR, no heroic measures, no ventilators etc... that I agree with wholeheartedly. I agree that in that situation phys assisted suicide would sound ideal. In that situation, i would say if i keep deteriorating let me go and give me pain meds to control the pain. If the machine is doing all the work for me... let me go.